Did God Create Evil and Sin for His Glory?

[beloved57]

May I draw your attention to the Terms of Service, which prohibists you from questioning other users' salvation, or accusing other users of being unsaved?

Well its my opinion sir, and I am not going to judge a person my brother in christ who utters blashemies and who does not believe the same gospel I love and believe. He is my neighbor, and thats it...

 

[Arminius]

[mean spirited post and questioning of one's salvation is not permitted]

 

[beloved57]

jnp says

I was quoting El_Guero's post #20 beloved. I do not believe that but if you believe I believe that you are not listening to me.

I apologize sir, sometimes I loose track as to who said what, but that statement is definitly off track..

 

[tragic_pizza]

Hello tragic.



God is Sovereign and man is responsible. These two facts have been lost by Calvinists. Calvinism jumps the problem of who has the last word on sin by stating positively that God predestinated men to salvation and reprobation. Sin is only a secondary problem.

john.

Double predestination is no longer a serious tenet of reformed theology. We hold the question of why some people refuse God's love as unknowable, rather than thinking a loving and holy God, Who desires all to come to reconciliation, to have damned some out-of-hand.

 

[Arminius]

Dear tragic:

I am curious as to your User-name. It is quite funny and unusual. Did you suffer from a kitchen calamity so great and so indelibly imprinted upon your person, that you could not help but choose your User name??? Fill us in please! :laugh:

 

[tragic_pizza]

Just a couple of words that sound funny together. Sorry, not a great story, but there ya go.

 

[johnp.]

tragic.

Double predestination is no longer a serious tenet of reformed theology.

Moved on have you? Cool. Who cares? ...by the grace of God I am what I am...

We hold the question of why some people refuse God's love as unknowable...

There are many ways to answer this but I'll have mercy. Who's the 'we'? Are you talking for the whole of Reformed belief or what? Do you think there can possibly be an answer if double predestination is removed from the start?

Calvinists no longer claim to know everything? A big leap in the five months I had my feet up.

...rather than thinking a loving and holy God, Who desires all to come to reconciliation, to have damned some out-of-hand.

I see the reformation of the Reformation building up a head of steam. And you are a reformer are you? I think some would have difficulty in believing you came anywhere close to the 'we' but I couldn't possibly comment on that.

Your name is cool man.

john.

 

[DHK]

Well DHK, I suffer from the deception of thinking that some who post here actually know their Bibles. We have one on here challenging me to produce the Biblical term "free-will". Do I really have to do that? Perhaps he should READ his Bible through until he gets to those places.

Yes you really have to do that.
Do you believe in theology? The word "theology" is not found in the Bible. Neither is; trinity, rapture, Christology, Soteriology, theophany, and hundreds of other words that pertain to Bible study that I could list here. But there are plenty of Scriptures that support the concept. Are you aware that the Apostle Paul also used the KJV?
Yes you have to read and study the Bible and demonstrate that the concept of free will is not taught in the Bible. You have yet to do that.

Post 21 alludes to many Scriptures, and if the Calvinists here actuall knew their Bible, they wouldn't be asking me to cite them for them. All references are well known Scriptures.

I am not a Calvinist (nor is Webdog who answered your post), but it is apparent that the Calvinist knows more of the Scripture than you do.

Here is post 21with the Scriptural references added by me in parenthesis FOR YOU TO LOOK YOU YOURSELVES IF YOU ARE UNFAMILIAR WITH THEM:

God IS NOT "in control of everything" that is obvious from Scripture and observation. He gave authority of the earth to man, (Gen 1, Psalms 8)and Adam yielded it to Satan, (Gen 3, Luke 4)

This is heresy. God is never "out of control" or he wouldn't be God. To say otherwise is blasphemy.
God did not give "control" of the earth to Adam. He gave Adam "dominion" to rule over it. God was still in control, and still is in control. He has never yielded up control of any part of his universe. Either you are Biblically illiterate or are playing a game of semantics. Which is it?
Secondly, where does it say in Genesis 3 that Adam yielded control of the earth to Satan. Quote the exact verse and explain how that happened. Otherwise you are in doctrinal error right from the start. You have made a false statement and cannot back it up with Scripture like I required you to do. Merely putting down a reference is fruitless.
Do the same with Luke 4. The reference to the chapter is meaningless. Quote the exact verse and explain how the authority and control of this world was yielded to Satan. Your statement is false. You have no Scriptural basis for such a statement.

Isaiah 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Isaiah 44:24-25 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;
25 That frustrateth the tokens of the liars, and maketh diviners mad; that turneth wise men backward, and maketh their knowledge foolish;

Colossians 1:16-17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
--By Him all things consist. They are held together with the word of his power.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came to them and spake unto them, saying, All authority hath been given unto me in heaven and on earth.
--What has been given to Jesus?

who our Lord called THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD three times in John's Gospel,(John's Gospel) and who is called "the god of this world", (2Cor. 4)and of whom it is said the whole world lies in his power(1John 5), and of whom it is said he has a seat, power and authority, and he will give it to the beast one day(Rev 13-14).

The "world" is the "cosmos" or this world system. It is that world that God hates.

James 4:4 Ye adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? Whosoever therefore would be a friend of the world maketh himself an enemy of God.

Romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1 John 2:15-16 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Christ still has authority over the world. He died for world (John 3:16). Satan can not do one thing without God's permission which makes God sovereign.
This is demonstrated in the Book of Job. You need to study the first chapter. Satan needed God's permission in order to attack Job. God is sovereign. The Bible teaches that it is God that sets up governments, and pulls down governments. God is always in control. If he wasn't, he wouldn't be God.

That is why the Lord is CALLING OUT a people for His name(Acts 15, 2Coor 6). We are called out of this mess.

No, we are called of God. We remain in this world, but called of God to be a witness for Him. We are not of this world but in this world to be a witness to this world.

It is run by the Devil and doomed for destruction. One day the Kingdoms of this world WILL BECOME the Kingdom of out Lord and or His Christ(Rev 11, 15, 19), but until then, the Devil and man are in rebellion to God, and most of what happens on planet earth every single day is not what God desires(Gen 6, Matt 23:37-39), nor is he in " control".

Perhaps much of what happens is "of Satan." That may be true.
Perhaps much of what happens is because of man's depraved heart. That may be true.
But that does not deny the sovereignty of God. Nor does it deny the free-will of man. God is still in control. He has set his own time-table, and things will happen according to His schedule. Much of his schedule is revealed to us in the Book of Revelation, though we know not the time, date, hour, etc. No one knows when the return of Christ will be. But God has set in order a series of events revealed for us in the Book of Revelation. He has sovereignly been working through his people throughout the course of history. And within that course of history he has given mankind a choice: to choose to do good or evil; to choose Christ or reject Him. That choice has been clearly set forth in the lives of many individuals:

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
--Joshua made a deliberate choice in his life to serve the Lord. What about you?

The Calvinist idea about "the Sovereignty of God" is another myth that slander the gracious, loving, merciful character of our Father in heaven. (Matt 6)

Excuse the harshness of the statement, but that is just an ignorant statement to make. Because God is sovereign does not negate the other attributes of God such as his graciousness, love and mercy. His attributes do not contradict each other, and there are many here that resent you calling his attributes (such as being sovereign) a myth. Cool your language.

 

[DHK]

He IS NOT "Sovereign". He is first and foremost FATHER. Our Lord did not teach us to pray "Our Sovereign, who art in heaven, controlling everything according to Thy good pleasure". Our Father. That revelas A LOT about what the Lord is really like, and the family unit is the greatest human illustration of what God is like(Psalms 103), and how he feels towards His offspring(Acts 17),

Again, his attributes do NOT contradict each other.

Romans 9:20-22 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
--These verses show the sovereignty of God. He will have mercy upon whom he chooses. That is sovereignty. And who are you that should speak against God?
You are simply a lump of clay in the potter's hand. God is sovereign and he can do with you whatever he wants to. You deserve nothing but Hell itself. You are not worthy of the least bit of his grace. However, by his grace he stretches out his hand to you and offers you the gift of eternal life through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ--for God is no respector of persons. You don't deserve it, but he offers it to you anyway. We deserve nothing but the wrath of God. Are you not glad that God is still in control and it is Christ that defeated Satan on the cross?

even the bad ones(Isaiah 1:18). No father creates children to kill them, and if he does even the unsaved say such a man is evil and put him in jail. But Calvinists would have us believe that the glorious Saviour is a sadistic child abuser who made billions of souls simply to damn them so he could show us how great he is. Gee, I am not impressed, I am repulsed, as any moral agent must be.

Romans 11:33-36 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
--How unsearchable are his judgements--but you know them. Right?
His ways are past finding out. But you have found them out. Right?
Who hath known the mind of the Lord? Arminius of course!
Who hath been his cousellor? Do we dare say that Arminius claims to be?
Don't you think that your post is a tad bit arrogant?
God is infinite. Do you claim to understand an infinite God with your finite mind?

Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
--You still claim to know his thoughts and his ways?
--Notice how these verses also speak to the sovereignty of God.

To call God "a sadistic child abuser" is blasphemy, and has really crossed the line. You need help.

Paul taught excommunicating blasphemers-1Tim 1:20. It is high time we purged the body of Christ of this blasphemy and the ones who refuse to renounce it.

What blasphemy? The so-called blasphemy of beleiving in the attributes of God. Something here is wrong.

James said:

1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God
cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust,
and enticed.
1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when
it is finished, bringeth forth death.
1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh
down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness,
neither shadow of turning.

The above passage TOTALLY REFUTES what the Calvinists have posted here--that God DOES tempt man with sin, that He is fact is the author if it.

I am not a Calvinist. But I do not remember any Calvinist stating that God is the author of sin. Either way that is not what that passage teaches; it is far from it.

James denies the whole blasphemous idea! He said to LET NO MAN SAY such things and I am obeying. The ideas of Beloved, Dustin and others are wretched blasphemy. Jesus is the author od FAITH, not sin-Heb 12.

He said "Let no man say, I am tempted of God." He did not say: "Let no man say such things." Now who is changing the Word of God. That is heresy. And a stiff warning is given in Rev.22 about those who do such things.
James is not the author of faith.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Every GOOD GIFT comes down from heaven, and the Lord SHOWS NO PARTIALITY, unlike the "god" of Calvinism. Is sin a "good" thing? Is sickness a "good" thing? Is abortion, where little baby boys and girls are torn to pieces as they are assassinated a "good" thing? Is it "good" when people starve to death? If anyone answers YES, to such things, you are one sinful, immoral, demented person. Only the Devil himself would call such things good.

So what are you insinuating? That Calvinists think all these evils are good things. The Bible does say:
"All things work together for good, to them that love God, to them that are called according to his purpose." And that includes sickness, death, assasnations, death by drunkenss, etc. All things work together for God. I ask again: Do you know the mind of the Lord? Are you his counsellor?

Good according to God's Word is what Jesus did:

10:38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with
power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were
oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

Healing is good and from God, and sickness is bad and from the Devil. Period.

Paul was afflicted with a thorn in the flesh (probably an eye disease or some other physical affliction). God would not heal it. It was sent from God. God's answer to Paul--"My grace is sufficient for you."
Paul left Trophimus sick at Miletus. Why couldn't he heal him when he had healed others?
He told Timothy to talke a little "wine" for thy stomachs sake and thy oft infirmities. That indicates that Timothy was often sick. Why couldn't Paul heal him.
Epaphroditus, it says was sick, even nigh unto death. He was very sick. Why couldn't Paul heal him? I will tell you why. It wasn't God's will. It was all for God's good, and for God's glory. The sickness was of God, and not from the devil. Here is another case just in case you don't believe the above.

John 9:1-3 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth. And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind? Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
--What was the cause of the sickness? The parents? The man himself? The devil? NO! None of the above. Jesus said the reason that this man was sick was that the works of God should be made manifest in him. That is why. It was God's will for him to be blind from his birth. Those are the words of Christ.

Now then DK, I have given you the citations, and could give MANY MORE to support my statements above. Those who foolishly charge God with sin, like Job did, magnify their guilt, for to whom much is given, much will be required.

Actually you have given me nothing at all. You have thrown around a few references, but how much Scripture did you actually post?

The Devil is the FATHER of sin, not God. God is the God of life, all that pertains to sin and death came from the Devil, and entered human existence through Adam's fall.

The devil did not bring sin into this world.

"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
--There is free will. Adam chose to sin. He could not blame it on Eve, and neither one of them could blame it on the devil. It was their choice to sin. If you don't believe that you don't believe the Bible. Romans 5:12 clearly states that sin entered the world through Adam.

The Devil is the one who "controls" the unsaved until they get saved(Eph 2:1-4)

The devil doesn't control anyone. The implication there is that every unsaved person is demon-possessed. That is control. But it is not reality. Satan has influence in this world but not control. Man still has a choice in this world to choose Christ. God still sits on his throne and is ultimately in control of all things. Satan can do nothing without the permission of God. God knows exactly what is going on. He is omniscient and omnipotent. Do not take away from the attributes of God.

and are translated OUT OF the KINGDOM(

Dpn't know what you are talking about here. I am saved, but I am still in this world. I have not been "translated" as Enoch was. You better define your terms better.

HELLO--THE DEVIL IS A KING!)

More accurately he is referred to as a prince--the prince of the power of the air.

of darkness, and into the Kingdom of His Son-Col. 1:13. I am amazed that what I am sharing, and consider Basic Bible doctrine, and which I knew well within months after getting saved, escapes these Calvinists here. Amazing and tragic.

I am amazed at you very poor grasp of Scripture and your downright blasphemous charges against God. God--"a sadistic child abuser!" Unbelievable!

 

[beloved57]

tragicpizza says

Double predestination is no longer a serious tenet of reformed theology.

Thats too bad because double predestination is a gospel truth too !

rom 9

21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,


1 pet 2

7Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,

8And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. cp

matt 21 42Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?

2 cor 2 16To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

Paul as an faithful steward , when he preached the gospel, he did not shun to declare all the counsel of God..

acts 20

20And how I kept back nothing that was profitable unto you, but have shewed you, and have taught you publicly, and from house to house,

21Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ.

22And now, behold, I go bound in the spirit unto Jerusalem, not knowing the things that shall befall me there:

23Save that the Holy Ghost witnesseth in every city, saying that bonds and afflictions abide me.

24But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God.

25And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Oh that God would raise uo faithful stewards like paul..

 

[beloved57]

dhk says

And within that course of history he has given mankind a choice: to choose to do good or evil; to choose Christ or reject Him. That choice has been clearly set forth in the lives of many individuals:

Not true , I have to disagree. God chooses who believes on christ !

acts 13: 48

48And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

God is against the non elect believing on christ, He does not want them to believe as in jn 12

39Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, 40He[GOD] hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
--Joshua made a deliberate choice in his life to serve the Lord. What about you?

This concept is arminianim

dh , you made some pretty good comments, but you made some that appear as arminian as the person you were refuting...

 

[Arminius]

Well DK, it appears you suffer from an inability to understand English or you Do not read carefully. I never said the true God is a child abuser. I am arguing against that very thing! The “god” of Calvinism is! I quoted James One PROPERLY. I “added” nothing to it, I barely expounded it. Your accusation is from the pit. You are simply too emotional to reason, and so you are halluncinating, and wasting cyberspace writing a polemic against what I don’t believe and didn’t say! Half your post is an utter waste of time.

Apparenlty you didn’t read the threadstarter by Beloved where he said:

There is some deep truth here, adam when he ate the fruit , he did not create evil, but he came to know it, experience it[also he did not create good, he came to know it and experience it]. The evil was already in his heart , when he sinned , it was made manifest , but it was put there in his creation by God. Remember, the purpose for all creation is for God to glorify His Triune Perfections and make known the riches of His Grace....

Some of you are going to object and say that God made adam good ! He did, good because he was made according to Gods all wise purpose and plan to Glorify Christ and His grace. Adam had to sin, it was a must, hence God created him evil. That is how sin came into the world as death and judgement..through adam, and God created adam for that purpose:

rom 5 : 12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

God created and decreed sin into the world by adam.....

Now then, do you believe that Satanic vomit, yes or no? Why did you not read the whole thread before jumping in? Proverbs says he who answers a matter before he hears it exalts folly. Go look up that word. You are guilty.

Beloved ascribes sin DIRECTLY TO GOD. That is blasphemy of the highest sort, and the highest form of "doctrines of devils" to ever come down the pike. Deal with that, and either pay attention to exactly what people write, what they were responding to, or take an English comprehension course. Your post is utter folly.

And just to show you YOU DON'T even know what you are talking about when you do actually respond to what I did say, tell me what the implications are when Satan is called:

a prince.
a god
power
authority
a seat
and finally, when the Devil tempted our Lord, he said:

Luke 4:
4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto
him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the
glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I
will I give it.4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

So, when did the Devil get all this power and the kingdoms of the world? When was it "delivered unto" him??? And he too can "give" it away??? Explain!

Lets see some exegesis and not your pontifications please.

As far as Sovereignty, on another thread I said:

Thank you blammo, but it was much more amusing to listen to webdog deny the term Free-will being in Scripture, and claiming he had read it through "many" times. I wonder if he was reading the Reformed Standard Version, where all those kinds of "troubling" passages are expunged--you know, to help us out of our Arminian "confusion". :laugh:

As for the "Sovereignty of God" business, I love saying "God is not Sovereign" because it bothers the Calvinists so. If they were consistent, nothing I say would bother them; for the "Sovereign" Lord is MAKING ME say such things, because He is "Sovereign" and IN TOTAL CONTROL of everything. Why do you resist God? I am here by the predestined will of God to utter these things. They should rejoice and submit to His "Sovereign" will for me to post here and contradict and refute them from Scripture. This can't be happening without His "will"! Why, that would be heresy and exalting man's will above God's! No no, I'm here because the Lord has irresistibly drawn me here and makes me type these things. Why do they bother you? My "sinful" posts "glorify" the "Sovereign" Lord. Ease up kiddies!

I guess Calvinism cannot be worked out practically by the Calvinists. They preach Calvinism, but act like Arminians. Their instincts are better than their minds.

The Bible teaches God is Creator and Sustainer of all things--He upholds them all by the Word of His power. NOWHERE DOES IT SAY He controls everything. Such sentiments are simply not true. The whole Bible reveals that THE FATHER OF HEAVEN AND EARTH made children IN HIS IMAGE AND LIKENESS--beings that have a will, like he does, and He gave them authority over earth, that they gave it to the Devil, and are subject to this "god". The Lord SOLVED the problem with the Cross and is calling us OUT OF this mess, which is doomed to destruction and Fire. That is when He will take CONTROL of things back here. Until then, He is mercifully and patiently allowing men to come and dine with Him, not willing that ANY should perish, but that all repent. So He forbears judgment, seeking the salvation of all instead. What a glorious God and Saviour we have!

The way the Bible teaches any kind of Sovereignty is through the above understanding, and also that Judgment Day is coming. The Lord has the last word and total control over what happens to every human being, but He Sovereignty made it so they will choose whom they will serve. That is His REAL "sovereign" arrangement, and the Calvinists don't like what God really did. They are the ones who really DO NOT BELIEVE in the "Sovereignty" of God, unless THEY get to define what it is, rather than God Himself. How ironic.

That is what the Bible teaches, not Calvin's demeted view of Sovereignty, as espoused by Beloved. The above is the teaching of Scripture, like it or lump it.

 

[DHK]

and finally, when the Devil tempted our Lord, he said:

Luke 4:
4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto
him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the
glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I
will I give it.4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

So, when did the Devil get all this power and the kingdoms of the world? When was it "delivered unto" him??? And he too can "give" it away??? Explain!

Do you believe everything Satan tells you? :BangHead:
Who had the authority? Christ or Satan? Satan did not have that authority in the first place. He is the father of liars.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

You actually beleive that Satan had power to give to Christ? Amazing!

 

[Arminius]

Dk:

If you are going to talk like you are some kind of theologian, sooner or later you have to demonstrate proof that it is so.

In Daniel 10, an angel appeared to him and said:

10:11 And he said unto me, O Daniel, a man greatly beloved, understand
the words that I speak unto thee, and stand upright: for unto thee
am I now sent. And when he had spoken this word unto me, I stood
trembling.
10:12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that
thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself
before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy
words.
10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and
twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to
help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
10:14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy
people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.

The "prince" of Persia??? And he resisted this angel from bringing the answer to Daniel for TWENTY ONE DAYS??? And he had to get help from Michael to overcome this principality???

So there are demons over nations, and they can fight God's angels, apparently with great effect. How did they get into those placesof authority??? You need to think before you answer.

And you also don't seem to realize that if the offer Satan gave was not genuine, then neither was the temptation. Our Lord faced a genuine temptation, and he resisted it. Satan did not lie, for what he desired was far greater than what he was willing to give up. What the Devil said lines up with what Daniel 10 says, and the other things I posted. He is a prince, a god, has power, authority a seat, and the whole world lies in his bondage-1Joun 5:19, Eph 2:1-4.

I would love to see you exegete those two verses and show how they don't mean everyone on this earth, except Christians walk according to the spirit of disobedience, the prince of the power of the air, and are not in his power.

And the question of HOW he got this authority in the first place.

 

[Brother Bob]

Wonder why the devil has to be overcome, if he has no power. If the devil doesn't have any power, then man would never of sinned in the first place and none of us would even have to die the natural death. Of course the devil has a great drawing power and its called "sin" of which men enjoy the pleasures of for a season, but then will have to pay the price.

Hbr 2:14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How could there be a warfare within a man if not for the messenger of Satan, a thorn in the flesh.

 

[canadyjd]

God brought sin into the world through adam, that was His purpose !..

I notice you have not addressed the fact that what you are saying directly contradicts the clear teaching of scripture in Gen. 1:31.

God saw what He made and it was "good". The hebrew word is "tov". It means it had the quality of "goodness", not evil. You are attempting to change the meaning of the Words of Scripture.

Isa: 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil, good and good, evil;"

peace to youraying:

 

[DHK]

And you also don't seem to realize that if the offer Satan gave was not genuine, then neither was the temptation. Our Lord faced a genuine temptation, and he resisted it. Satan did not lie, for what he desired was far greater than what he was willing to give up. What the Devil said lines up with what Daniel 10 says, and the other things I posted. He is a prince, a god, has power, authority a seat, and the whole world lies in his bondage-1Joun 5:19, Eph 2:1-4.

I would love to see you exegete those two verses and show how they don't mean everyone on this earth, except Christians walk according to the spirit of disobedience, the prince of the power of the air, and are not in his power.

And the question of HOW he got this authority in the first place.

Satan didn't have the authority. I told you that already.
I tell you what. I will give you my mailing address. You send me a valid money order for $1,000.00, and when I receive it I will send you $10,000.00 worth of valuable jewels (mostly diamond and gold). Is that a deal?
Sounds good doesn't it? The trouble with that "temptation" is that I have no "power" or "authority" to give you any jewels whatsoever because I don't own any, but I sure would take your money. Satan uses this ploy all the time. He takes what you have without giving back. He didn't have the power to give Jesus all the kingdoms of the world. They weren't his to give.

It was an offer of the Kingdom (as in the Millennial Kingdom), sooner than the time appointed. Christ would thus avoid the sufferings of the cross. Some day Christ will rule all the kingdoms of the world. But those kingdoms will not be handed to him by Satan. In fact during that time Satan will be bound for 1000 years. That was the temptation--along with the worship of Satan. Satan did not have the power to deliver the goods.
A person can tempt with deceit. What moral obligation does Satan have to be "an honest tempter?" :rolleyes"

 

[BobRyan]

I know it is hard for Calvinists to understand what children can, but it goes like this:

God = good

Satan = bad.

That goes over their head every time.

Amen! Preach it!

God IS NOT "in control of everything" that is obvious from Scripture and observation. He gave authority of the earth to man, and Adam yielded it to satan, who our Lord called THE PRINCE OF THIS WORLD three times in John's Gospel, and who is called "the god of this world", and of whom it is said the whole world lies in his power, and of whom it is said he has a seat, power and authority, and he will give it to the beast one day. That is why the Lord is CALLING OUT a people for His name. We are called out of this mess.

And excellent point. Instead of God "authoring the mess" or "authoring rebellion" or "authoring failure" He is the God that is the "author of Salvation" and the "author of Paradise".

He is "JUST" AND the "JUSTIFIER" of those who have faith in Him.

God sovereignly "chose" to create and sustain and "free will system".


Creation was HIS - it was HIS to do with as He pleased and HE chose to create a free will system.

Hence the great price paid for permitting Lucifer's choice of rebellion - the loss of 1/3 of the Angels.

Hence the great price paid for permitting Eve's choice of Rebellion - the loss of Adam and the entire human race.

Henc the great price paid for Israel's choice of Rebellion -

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Wonder why the devil has to be overcome, if he has no power.

Glarlingly obvious and true Brother Bob!!

In Eph 6 our "WARFARE" continues and the ONLY way we STAND is "HAVING DONE EVERYTHING - STAND FIRM" having put on the FULL armor of God SO THAT you MAY STAND.

The ROARING LION problem is a NT fact!

Preach it!

Hbr 2:14Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

How could there be a warfare within a man if not for the messenger of Satan, a thorn in the flesh.

Well said sir!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I notice you have not addressed the fact that what you are saying directly contradicts the clear teaching of scripture in Gen. 1:31.

God saw what He made and it was "good". The hebrew word is "tov". It means it had the quality of "goodness", not evil. You are attempting to change the meaning of the Words of Scripture.

Isa: 5:20 "Woe to those who call evil, good and good, evil;"

peace to youraying:

Ahh what a pleasure to see bulls-eye after bulls-eye hit by the people of God!

Right on - preach it!

in Christ,

Bob