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Did God Create Evil and Sin for His Glory?
- Thread starter beloved57
- Start date
webdog said:
GE:
You just maybe a blood-Jew but don't know it.
Quote:
"Only when man thinks he knows better. RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Pick your justice out of that webdog.
Webdog:
Well, since Romans 9 is dealing with Jews and the "jewish problem", I see nothing unjust about that statement. Only when incorrectly applying it to individual salvation, as calvinism does, do you get the problems associated with it.
GE:
Is this, 'the jewish problem' a la webdog, or is it, "individual salvation ... as calvinism applies"? : Quote:
"RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I, have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on MAN'S desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
I think you cannot read!
"Only when man thinks he knows better. RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
Pick your justice out of that webdog.
Webdog:
Well, since Romans 9 is dealing with Jews and the "jewish problem", I see nothing unjust about that statement. Only when incorrectly applying it to individual salvation, as calvinism does, do you get the problems associated with it.
GE:
Is this, 'the jewish problem' a la webdog, or is it, "individual salvation ... as calvinism applies"? : Quote:
"RO 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I, have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 It does not, therefore, depend on MAN'S desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
I think you cannot read!
There are three sides to a coin beloved.
How can my Church admonish a person who had agreement with the Church to do a thing?
Yes and find that I alienate those I am supposed to be concerned about? Half the Church are strangers to me. What reaction will I get if I start exhorting over the leaders heads? I will tango with the leadership when the oppotunity is given and not before.
That is the Church.
Stephen spoke for himself. Your judgements are false because I am not Stephen. He had his job to do and I have mine. It would be nice to go and share with my kind but I have been told to stay where I am. Take it up with God. Pray that the oppotunity arises soon for me to make a mark.
It would be nice but it isn't neccessary. The perfect Church is hard to find, if we had to wait until we find another that agrees with us we will be waiting a long time I think.
I believe Israel the nation was set up for us as a physical representation of spiritual truths. The world was in the Temple just the same as it is in the Church, I live with it as my brothers and sisters lived with it.
john.
And: RO 9:19 One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" webdog?
I thought Esau was an Edomite not a Jew.
Rom 9:13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." So the passage cannot be just speaking about the Jews. Esau wasn't a Jew was he?If God wants to create men just to chuck into Hell for no reason what's that got to do with you? Anyway, the passage is still standing because if it was to the Jews only then it was. It still doesn't ...depend on a Jew's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.
john.
Instead of plucking one verse out of Romans, why not read that verse in the context of the chapter as a whole, and book as a whole? Me thinks you cannot exegete, but lean on the presuppositions of your theology to interpret Scripture. Romans 9-11 is CLEARLY dealing with the nation of Israel and Jews.Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
That's all Greek to me man.
But my suppositions are created by scripture why shouldn't I lean on them for I had none before I became a Christian? My presuppositions were that I had to have a hair cut and wear a suit.
As to doctrine a virgin. I brought no baggage with me.Of course I read the bible by the light I have and so do you.
The passage says Rachel was told and I know you have been told Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
You are on the defensive, you must be because I use the words to mean what they say but you have changed the scripture to fit your belief and that is very naughty isn't it? And to compound your crime you make a lot of noise about how wrong we are and how we mess with scripture when in fact it is you doing the messing.
Just as it is written:
Just as it is written:
Just as it is written:
Just as it is written:
Just as it is written:
"Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
john.
johnp, that's how cults are formed...taking bits and pieces of Scripture to form a theology. Even using your flawed argument and the above Scrpture, that verse has nothing to do with salvation at all, and even if it did, it does NOT say "Jacob I chose for salvation, Esau I chose for reprobation". That's reading into Scripture what is not there.johnp. said:That's all Greek to me man.
But my suppositions are created by scripture why shouldn't I lean on them for I had none before I became a Christian? My presuppositions were that I had to have a hair cut and wear a suit.
Of course I read the bible by the light I have and so do you.
The passage says Rachel was told and I know you have been told Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
You are on the defensive, you must be because I use the words to mean what they say but you have changed the scripture to fit your belief and that is very naughty isn't it? And to compound your crime you make a lot of noise about how wrong we are and how we mess with scripture when in fact it is you doing the messing.
Just as it is written:
Just as it is written:
Just as it is written:
"Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
john.
webdog said:
Its a sin, a great sin, and it is epitomized in freewill theology and arminanism and I am greatful to God because He delivered me from that Idolatry and spiritual pride when he conveted me to the gospel. An arminan and freewiller are the most proud and boastful pepole in the universe, for they believe that God blessed them with eternal life because f something they did, and the reason why another person is not blessed with eternal life is because of something they did not do. So do not talk about pride......:tonofbricks:
tragic_pizza
New Member
What?
TULIP is not the Gospel. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the Gospel.
TULIP is not the Gospel. The death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the Gospel.
Fat lot you know. Election is mentioned isn't it? Has election nothing to do with salvation? ...in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls...
God isn't talking about salvation but about how Despotic a God He is. He boasts it. "Look what I did to Pharoah. Look how I hated Esau and loved Jacob. Look how I controlled and manipulated these people like The Master puppeteer I Am and look how I deal with those I hate. What you going to do about it?"
He says, "What if I populated Hell just so my Children can have a better idea of my mercy to them what's that to you?" ISA 45:9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, `What are you making?' Does your work say, `He has no hands'?
Romans 9:19.
He doesn't answer the question the wise ask, "Why does He blame us?" You answer webdog, why does He still blame us? No one resists His will why does He still blame us webdog since it was Him pulling the strings? He does and that is the only answer the wise get. God's Sovereignty shines as bright as day here as He tells us that Esau went to Hell so He could demonstrate to us His purpose in election. This is the only reason given in scripture. Pharaoh was used to demonstrate God's power. He raised him up for this very purpose, to destroy him in public.
Rom 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory...
Paul's conclusion is the only conclusion one can arrive at after reading Romans 9 because it was Paul's conclusion as well.
Whatcha think?
john.
johnp. said:Fat lot you know. Election is mentioned isn't it? Has election nothing to do with salvation? ...in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls...
God isn't talking about salvation but about how Despotic a God He is. He boasts it. "Look what I did to Pharoah. Look how I hated Esau and loved Jacob. Look how I controlled and manipulated these people like The Master puppeteer I Am and look how I deal with those I hate. What you going to do about it?"
He says, "What if I populated Hell just so my Children can have a better idea of my mercy to them what's that to you?" ISA 45:9 "Woe to him who quarrels with his Maker, to him who is but a potsherd among the potsherds on the ground. Does the clay say to the potter, `What are you making?' Does your work say, `He has no hands'?
Romans 9:19.
He doesn't answer the question the wise ask, "Why does He blame us?" You answer webdog, why does He still blame us? No one resists His will why does He still blame us webdog since it was Him pulling the strings? He does and that is the only answer the wise get. God's Sovereignty shines as bright as day here as He tells us that Esau went to Hell so He could demonstrate to us His purpose in election. This is the only reason given in scripture. Pharaoh was used to demonstrate God's power. He raised him up for this very purpose, to destroy him in public.
Rom 9:22 What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath--prepared for destruction? 23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory...
Paul's conclusion is the only conclusion one can arrive at after reading Romans 9 because it was Paul's conclusion as well.
Whatcha think?
john.
You know what I think...:godisgood:
That one does and the others do not must bring pride. I know, I feel it still when I have done good. A deserved reward for obedience must leave one smug. A wage I wager.
ISA 28:10 For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there."
ISA 28:11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
ISA 28:12 to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"--
but they would not listen.
ISA 28:13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there--
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured.
john.
ISA 28:10 For it is:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there."
ISA 28:11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
ISA 28:12 to whom he said,
"This is the resting place, let the weary rest";
and, "This is the place of repose"--
but they would not listen.
ISA 28:13 So then, the word of the LORD to them will become:
Do and do, do and do,
rule on rule, rule on rule;
a little here, a little there--
so that they will go and fall backward,
be injured and snared and captured.
john.
johnp. said:
John, its just like where the bible says " The just shall live by faith" Thats a promise there, those justified will live by faith.
On the flip side , those under the law will live always under law !
gal 3 12And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
I believe that any person that is still under law, by curse as in gal 3
10For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them
That individual cannot come up from the idealology of having to do something to merit acceptance with God. Cain is a primary example. So whenever folk put the least condition on salvation, its indicative that they are under the curse of the law.
The true doctrine of God sets His people free from that Idealology as in
Jn 8 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. and jn 7
17If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
I believe with all my heart, the truthes of tulip is that doctrine ! You come to know salvation is of sovereign grace 100%
There was nothing we could do, how could we, we were dead, God resurrected us by His Divine power..I know you feel differently, but those who oppose tulip, are opposing the gospel of Gods grace. No one who does this gives any evidence of conversion, they give evidence of being under the curse of the law......
Brother Bob
New Member
Changing definitions not allowed!!
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1 Timothy 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.
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Brother Bob
New Member
I don't like the way that is worded either, so I will remove it, but
I guess I would word it different, such as "Grace through faith". To be honest though, I don't want to know what you know.
Looks like John Calvin is God to you.
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