Did God Need Mary’s Permission?

[mojoala]

Here is some dialog on another board:

On a non-Catholic board, a current question is: Did the angel of the Lord need Mary's permission in order for Christ to be born or is this a command?

Luke 1:31 "And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall name Him Jesus.”

The Catholics’ position is that Mary was asked and had to consent to God; that God did not force Himself upon Mary. For me, I always interpreted that Mary had the option of saying "no," just like any of us have the option of saying "no" to God, but Mary was obedient and was rightly praised by Jesus as an example of obedience to God. Luke 11:27. And it came to pass, as he spoke these things, a certain woman from the crowd, lifting up her voice, said to him: Blessed is the womb that bore thee and the paps that gave thee ****. 28. But he said: Yea rather, blessed are they who hear the word of God and keep it.

The non-Catholics position is “She did not permit, she affirmed. She conceded. She could not alter it. There is nothing that says 'Would you mind if...?' She did exercise her free will by admitting she could do nothing to change what the angel declared. "Let it be" makes perfect sense in that context” “Mary was not ASKED anything, she was TOLD what would take place. She wasn't giving permission. The angel said "you will conceive" not "will you conceive".... “Mary had no power to prevent anything. Her "permission" is simply agreement with God. That's conceding that God will do what He wants.” “God needs our approval for His will to be done? You might want to read Job 38 if you have not already”

Any suggestions to refute the non-Catholic position?

This is a tough non-Catholic site. Just last week, several Catholics, some currently on CA, were banned because of a confrontation with the non-Catholic site’s moderator/administrator. It was pretty heated and ugly, and it also showed how fortunate we are with the CA Forum (and how blessed we are with unobtrusive, professional and all-around even-keel forum moderators)!

Thank you.

If Mary didn't consent, and God impregnated her against her will, what would you call that?

What would it be called if a man did it?

Applying that to God and knowing the respect that God affords our Free Will, what do you think the chances are that Mary "had no power" to say no and God just forced His will on her?

I'd say that's a pretty strong case that Mary gave her permission. If they deny it, God becomes a rapist. If they say that He is, I would "shake the dust off my sandles".

God Bless,

If Mary didn't consent, and God impregnated her against her will, what would you call that?

What would it be called if a man did it?

Applying that to God and knowing the respect that God affords our Free Will, what do you think the chances are that Mary "had no power" to say no and God just forced His will on her?

I'd say that's a pretty strong case that Mary gave her permission. If they deny it, God becomes a rapist. If they say that He is, I would "shake the dust off my sandles".

God Bless,

The consideration that God requires our own assent for us to receive our own salvation.

Or do they think we are saved in spite of ourselves? (That is a Calvinist position).

So just as our own consent is needed for our own salvation, so was Mary's consent needed for everyone's salvation. And all Hebrew generations prepared the way for Mary and her "Yes", so we have them to thank as well.

It is hard to be grateful for something you think was "supposed" to happen anyway.

 

[genesis12]

Only the mind of man could dream up such a question. The question itself is faulty on its face.

 

[Marcia]

I think God chose Mary because he knew she was willing to serve God in whatever he asked of her. God knows our minds and what we are thinking. He would not have chosen someone who would not have been willing.

 

[menageriekeeper]

What Marcia said. :thumbs:

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

I think God chose Mary because he knew she was willing to serve God in whatever he asked of her. God knows our minds and what we are thinking. He would not have chosen someone who would not have been willing.

1. Did God choose Mary because of his foreknowledge of her inate goodness and that she would willingly say ok?

2. Does this not possibly lead to the worship of Mary instead of giving all the Glory to God for his sovereign choice?

3. I don't believe God needs Mary's, or anybody elses, permission to do anything. I affirm the Westminster Confession of Faith when it says:

I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;[1] yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,[2] nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.[3]

Link

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Marcia]

1. Did God choose Mary because of his foreknowledge of her inate goodness and that she would willingly say ok?

2. Does this not possibly lead to the worship of Mary instead of giving all the Glory to God for his sovereign choice?

3. I don't believe God needs Mary's, or anybody elses, permission to do anything. I affirm the Westminster Confession of Faith when it says:

Joseph Botwinick

Hi, Joseph,
I didn't say he chose her for her "innate goodness." I said he chose her because he knew she was willing and was apparently the woman God wanted to be the mother of Jesus.

I agree God doesn't need permission for anything but I also do not think he would have chosen a woman who not have been willing to serve God or who did know God. For example, Jezebel. I cannot see God choosing someone like her to be the mother of Jesus.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Hi, Joseph,
I didn't say he chose her for her "innate goodness." I said he chose her because he knew she was willing and was apparently the woman God wanted to be the mother of Jesus.

I agree God doesn't need permission for anything but I also do not think he would have chosen a woman who not have been willing to serve God or who did know God. For example, Jezebel. I cannot see God choosing someone like her to be the mother of Jesus.

It is interesting how God was willing to choose those who were hostile to his Church and mission ...people like Paul, to carry out his purpose. God changed his heart. So yes, I agree that God does not force those he chooses to do his will. But when God chooses you, he will change your will to conform to his will by his grace. By stating that God chose Mary because she was willing (thereby making it a choice that she made and God simply complied with...showing some level of nobility that was of her own), you are stating that God chose her because of her inate goodness.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Marcia]

It is interesting how God was willing to choose those who were hostile to his Church and mission ...people like Paul, to carry out his purpose. God changed his heart. So yes, I agree that God does not force those he chooses to do his will. But when God chooses you, he will change your will to conform to his will by his grace. By stating that God chose Mary because she was willing (thereby making it a choice that she made and God simply complied with...showing some level of nobility that was of her own), you are stating that God chose her because of her inate goodness.

Joseph Botwinick

Joseph, I do not equate willingness with "innate goodness." They are not the same terms and do not mean the same thing.

I don't think God was searching, trying to find someone who was willing, but he knew she would be willing when she was told what would happen. This does not mean she was innately good at all!

 

[mojoala]

from another post:

Protestants often make the grave mistake of treating Mary as if she were a mere "vessel" -- which is the same thing as saying she was a Petrie Dish that God used and threw away. They also often make the mistake of believing that God "woke-up" one day, yawned, decided it was time to "send his Son to earth," and then started looking, at random, for the proper "gal" to serve as a temporary incubator.

It is written that God knows each of us from the very moment of conception..."from the womb"...and that God has a plan and mission for each of us and prepares us according to our free will and cooperation with his grace.

God didn't just "pick" Mary out of some Galileean "line-up." She was destined, prepared, and graced to be the MOTHER of the Divine Word. Not a temporary "holding-tank." She gave human nature to the utter, omnipotent "DIVINE," according to her free will, faith, and cooperation--even to the point of possibly losing her own life, her husband, and her entire world.

Mary's faith was the 'contact point' for the greatest event that ever happened in this universe or any other, the greatest miracle in that thing we humans call "time"-- the Divine becomes part of matter, part of the material "existence." It gives me the shivers simply to think about the astonishing, mind-blowing reality of it. And Protestant literalists so often toss Mary aside the way they foolishly think that God "tossed her aside" after demanding temporary use of her reproductive organs.

She raised him. Educated him. Nursed him. Shared her own faith with him. LIVED with Jesus for 30 years as mother first in faith, and THEN in flesh. Her grace (given lavishly by God: Luke 1.28) and her free response to that saving grace, made it possible for all of humanity (and creation) to be redeemed by Jesus. It was the greatest "collaborative effort" that could ever possibly be effected or even imagined, through all ages, all times, all places, all possibilities.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Joseph, I do not equate willingness with "innate goodness." They are not the same terms and do not mean the same thing.

I don't think God was searching, trying to find someone who was willing, but he knew she would be willing when she was told what would happen. This does not mean she was innately good at all!

Marcia,

Would you say that being willing to believe is something good...and where did that goodness come from? Was Mary good or did God save her and make her capable of goodness?

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Marcia]

Marcia,

Would you say that being willing to believe is something good...and where did that goodness come from? Was Mary good or did God save her and make her capable of goodness?

The Bible doesn't say. It does have the angel greeting her as "favored one."

And coming in, he said to her, "Greetings, favored one! The Lord is with you."

29But she (AK)was very perplexed at this statement, and kept pondering what kind of salutation this was.
30The angel said to her, "(AL)Do not be afraid, Mary; for you have found favor with God. 31"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you (AM)shall name Him Jesus.
Lk 1.28-31

This is all the text tells us.

 

[mojoala]

The Greek does not say 'Favored One'.

The Greek word "kecharitomene" is translated (in the Vulgate) "gratia plena" which is "full of grace." This is a slight mistranslation, as it doesn't quite capture all of the nuances of the Greek. But "favored one" is worse as instead of trying to capture these nuances, it ignores them altogether.

Kacharitomene is the perfect passive participle of Charitoo meaning "to grace." A less poetic, but more accurate translation of it would be,"Having-Been-Graced-One." Someone has suggested that this is an accurate translation, "Full of grace that you have received." Replacing "grace" with "favor" would only be appropriate if it were to be translated something like "Completely Favored One." In which case one must ask: what did Mary do to earn this favor? The response would, of course, be: "Nothing. We cannot earn God's favor". This favor must therefore be given by the GRACE of God. Indeed, this "favor" IS the grace of God which is revealed by the meaning of the word "charitoo."


G5487
χαριτόω
charitoō
khar-ee-to'-o
From G5485; to grace, that is, indue with special honor: - make accepted, be highly favoured.

G5485
χάρις
charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

G5463
χαίρω
chairō
khah'ee-ro
A primary verb; to be full of “cheer”, that is, calmly happy or well off; impersonal especially as a salutation (on meeting or parting), be well: - farewell, be glad, God speed, greeting, hail, joy (-fully), rejoice.

Hence the proper translation should be "Full Of Grace"

 

[Marcia]

Another view on "full of grace."

NET Bible commentary

The address, "favored one" (a perfect participle, Grk "Oh one who is favored") points to Mary as the recipient of God's grace, not a bestower of it. She is a model saint in this passage, one who willingly receives God's benefits. The Vulgate rendering "full of grace" suggests something more of Mary as a bestower of grace, but does not make sense here contextually.