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Did Jesus go to Hell
- Thread starter Kay
- Start date
webdog said:
1. The Bible doesn't say that.
2. He went to the spirits in prison. Is heaven to be thought of as a prison now?
3. Webdog, a particular translation is not going to slice it for me. Check several translations and see the difficulties learned translators face at this verse.
4. But one thing is clear: Jesus went and preach to the spirits in prison.
5. The whole context of 1 Peter nowhere assumes that this is heaven; Peter is arguing that in the same way Christ was victorious over the evils that be, even descended to hell to proclaim victory over the spirits in prison, in the same way Christians who are being persecuted will experience victory. This the context of the verses under consideration.
webdog said:
1. I have always understood Sheol (Gk. Hades) to be the realm of the departed spirits, with two parts: torment for the bad dudes and comfort for the good dudes.
2. For example, both the Jews and Greeks thought of the fallen spirits of 2 Pet. 2:4 as being in chains in Tartarus, the subterranean level of Hades/Sheol.
3. But after the Resurrection I believe there is only Gehenna and Heaven (Paradise 2Cor 12).
Brother Bob
New Member
But what you say DHK, is not to preach to them, but to "mock" them. There just was no purpose for Him to go to the eternal hell.
I do agree with the following:
(He still had to overcome death though).
Last edited by a moderator:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
webdog said:
In this text SHEOL in the OT is seen to be HADES of the NT an it is seen to be the grave
Acts 2 -
25 ""For David says of Him, " I SAW THE LORD ALWAYS IN MY PRESENCE; FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, SO THAT I WILL NOT BE SHAKEN.
26 "THEREFORE MY HEART WAS GLAD AND MY TONGUE EXULTED; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL LIVE IN HOPE;
27 BECAUSE YOU WILL NOT ABANDON MY SOUL TO HADES, NOR ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO UNDERGO DECAY.
28 "YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF GLADNESS WITH YOUR PRESENCE.'
29 "" Brethren, I may confidently say to you regarding the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
30 ""And so, because he was a prophet and knew that GOD HAD SWORN TO HIM WITH AN OATH TO SEAT one OF HIS DESCENDANTS ON HIS THRONE,
31 he looked ahead and spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that HE WAS NEITHER ABANDONED TO HADES, NOR DID His flesh SUFFER DECAY.
32 ""This Jesus God raised up again, to which we are all witnesses.
But in Eccl 12 we find that the spirit of man goes "back to God who gave it" at the point of death
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
TCGreek said:
interesting story.
1 Peter 3
14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.
17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;
19 in which (in the Spirit) also He went and made proclamation to the spirits (now-inserted) in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting[/b] in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water
1Pet 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
These are the facts from this text
1. Christ is our example of the good people who suffer – for HE suffered one for all
2. He suffered and died and after that was made alive once again through the Spirit of God
3. AND it was that same Spirit of Christ that ministered to mankind at the time of the flood during the time when Noah was building the ark. (Noah and Christ being examples of those who minister and work for others)
4. The Spirit of Christ worked in OT people/prophets (like Noah) predicting the gospel story about the Messiah.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Tom Butler said:
Well - said sir.
1John 2:2 says that Christ is "the Atoning Sacrifice for our sins and not our sins only but for the sins of the whole world" and this was a ONCE FOR ALL atoning sacrifice completed at the cross according to Heb 10.
Some suppose that only AFTER the cross -- and while IN the grave -- did Christ pay the debt of sin in an atoning sacrifice -- but as you point out that part was FINISHED at the cross!
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
DHK said:
1. No text in 1Peter 3 says "He lead the OT saints out of paradise"
2. No text in all of scripture says "Christ leads/led saints out of Paradise"
3. No text says "Christ went to paradise at death"
4. No text says "Paradise is/was in Hades"
6. Eph 4 makes no reference to Paradise OR to Christ "doing something while he was dead".
7. The text of 1Peter 3 is VERY specific about this being a reference to the dead who are STILL in prison (dead) while Peter is writing and that these are the ones that were alive during the days that Noah was building the ark!
It is left as an exercise for the reader to observe that there is just no way to bend the scripture to the point DHK's view "needs" in this case.
in Christ,
Bob
Everything I need I have in Christ. He is my Lord; my Saviour. In Him I am all sufficient. There is nothing more I need outside of Christ.BobRyan said:
But you have a problem with belief--belief with the Scriptures. Sometimes it is with entire books; sometimes it is with small verses like this one.
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
Your problem is belief. You don't believe in this Scripture. You are puzzled about the how, the why. You don't understand any necessity for Christ to do this, and therefore you don't believe. You just flatly reject the Scripture based on your own human reasoning instead of believing by faith that the Scripture is true; that it is God's revelation to man, inspired by the Holy Spirit.
Your points have all been previously answered, just not in the way you want them to be. You act like a juvenile who claims there is no trinity in the Bible because the word is not in the Bible. You are using the same logic in this thread. Your problem is still one of belief. Do you believe the Scriptures or not.BobRyan said:
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
It is very clearly written.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Post 70 already answered that --
1 Peter 3
14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.
17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;
19 in which (in the Spirit) also He went and made proclamation to the spirits (now-inserted) in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting[/b] in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water
1Pet 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
These are the facts from this text
1. Christ is our example of the good people who suffer – for HE suffered one for all
2. He suffered and died and after that was made alive once again through the Spirit of God
3. AND it was that same Spirit of Christ that ministered to mankind at the time of the flood during the time when Noah was building the ark. (Noah and Christ being examples of those who minister and work for others)
4. The Spirit of Christ worked in OT people/prophets (like Noah) predicting the gospel story about the Messiah.
1 Peter 3
14 But even if you should suffer for the sake of righteousness, you are blessed. AND DO NOT FEAR THEIR INTIMIDATION, AND DO NOT BE TROUBLED,
15 but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence;
16 and keep a good conscience so that in the thing in which you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ will be put to shame.
17 For it is better, if God should will it so, that you suffer for doing what is right rather than for doing what is wrong.
18 For Christ also died for sins once for all, the just for the unjust, so that He might bring us to God, having been put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit;
19 in which (in the Spirit) also He went and made proclamation to the spirits (now-inserted) in prison,
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting[/b] in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water
1Pet 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.
These are the facts from this text
1. Christ is our example of the good people who suffer – for HE suffered one for all
2. He suffered and died and after that was made alive once again through the Spirit of God
3. AND it was that same Spirit of Christ that ministered to mankind at the time of the flood during the time when Noah was building the ark. (Noah and Christ being examples of those who minister and work for others)
4. The Spirit of Christ worked in OT people/prophets (like Noah) predicting the gospel story about the Messiah.
Those "facts" have nothing to do with this verse:BobRyan said:
1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
It is this verse that you fail to believe. Belief is a problem with you. Things don't always happen in the sequence that you put them in. The verse clearly says that Christ preached to the spirits in prison. This happened after his death. You don't have to mutilate the Scriptures to show your unbelief in this Scripture.
1Pet.3:18-20 "spirits in prison" "For Christ also once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, indeed being put to death in the flesh, but made alive in the Spirit; in which also He went and preached to the spirits in prison, who formerly were disobedient, when once the long-suffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared (in which a few, that is, eight souls were saved through water)";
Similar is ch. 4:3-6 —"For the time of life which is past is enough for us to have worked out the will of the nations, having gone on in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, parties, carousings, and abominable idolatries. In these things they are surprised, that you are not running with them into the same excess of riot, blaspheming. But they shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For to this end the gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit."
Many in the past have combined this with Christ's burial, and have posited a whole scenario of Christ "descending into Hell", which must have had two sections, "paradise" for the righteous, and a place of suffering for the wicked; and that Christ preached to its inhabitants, and even bringing the righteous (such as Noah) back up with him, to Heaven. Some parts of this are now rejected by various interpreters, but still these passages do appear as "proofs" that the righteous dead before Christ were alive in Sheol/Hades, and now they are alive in "Heaven". Others see the reference to Noah as referring to fallen angels, who existed back then as well as now. But fallen angels are not "sometimes" disobedient, and the other [unfallen] angels are never disobedient. It is useless to "preach" to either.
In the context, above we see Paul is discussing unsaved people now (in his time, and of course it applies to our time as well), who taunt Christians for not living like them anymore. It was this same type of people in the "world" in Noah's time, who mocked as he built his ark to escape the coming judgment, and all soon perished. It was not those people in Noah's time who were being preached to by Christ, (unless you see Christ preaching to them through Noah) but just a comparison of the wickedness. The point is, Christ's message is being offered to these people in the world today, enslaved in the prison of sin and condemnation. This passage even seems to be a reference to (fulfilment of) the messianic prophecy in Isaiah 42:1-7 "Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect, in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit on Him; He shall bring out judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not fail nor be discouraged until He has set judgment in the earth; and the coasts shall wait for His law. So says God, the LORD He who created the heavens and stretched them out, spreading out the earth and its offspring; He who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it. I the LORD have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand, and will keep You, and give You for a covenant of the people, for a Light to the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes,to bring out the prisoners from the prison, those who sit in darkness out of the prison house".
This is even recognized in chain references. Sin is many times over referenced as both "prison" and "death".
Hanegraaf, in Christianity in Crisis, Harvest House, 1993 p. 396, uses this passage as a proof text of Christ descending to Hades to preach to the righteous in "paradise", but then his own Christian Research Journal (12-97 p.24,25) Luke Wilson, answering Mormon doctrine of the salvation of the dead (a logical possibility with common interpretation of the passage) shatters the idea. The passage suggests this happened after Christ was put to death, and then made alive. And he ultimately shows from the Greek that this passage is describing Christ's [SIZE=-1]PROCLAMATION[/SIZE] of victory which "took place in the context of this journey". (though he takes the view that it was to fallen angels; though after the resurrection). In the notes he adds :"I do not believe 1 Pet.3:18 ff can properly be understood in connection with the doctrine of Christ's descent into Hades during the time His body lay in the tomb".
Continuing from Hanegraaf's interpretations in the ch. 14 notes on p.396:
"Jesus took righteous out of Hades (paradise, Abraham's bosom) and to the throne of God":
Eph.4:8.9 "...When he ascended up on high he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men (Now that He ascended [it means] He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth)"
This is HORRIBLE exegesis! I am so surpised that someone like Hanegraaf, and the rest of "conservative" evangelicalism and fundamentalism uses it! You might as well throw a bunch of verses into a fishbowl and pick any one out blindfolded, and force the meaning into it! Just find any word in it like "led" or "captivity", that looks like "leading saints out of hades" might fit, and simply plug the meaning in. How can anyone talk about "cults" with that sort of interpretation? Talk about a "keyhole" method; at least they use a key that can be found somewhere in scripture! This is making up a "key" out of nowhere on the spot!
Anyway,
--this is talking about His burial and resurrection, and the redemption from the curse of sin it brought us. It says not a thing about carrying souls up to heaven (or "Abraham's bosom"), or carrying a whole section of Hades itself up to Heaven as Hanegraaf next maintains.
"In fact, Paradise is no longer in hades, but now in the throne room of God":
2 Cor. 12:2—Paul's trip to the "third heaven" ("paradise")
--But Paradise is never mentioned in scripture as having ever been in Hades. There has never been any such positive association with Hades in the Bible. It was always the very opposite of Paradise. (Recall it's description as a "place of sorrows" in the scriptures earlier cited. It's either one or the other.) This passage has always been used as proof of the idea that the soul "lives apart from" the body at death. People see "in the body/out of the body", and right away snatch this up with out so much as giving it a thought. Just look at the [SIZE=-1]CONTEXT[/SIZE]. This passage is not even talking about death! Paul [SIZE=-1]DID NOT DIE[/SIZE]! Paul was either actually carried up to heaven "in the body", or it was a [SIZE=-1]VISION[/SIZE] --"out of the body". And notice, no dead righteous are seen. This is poor eisegesis of scripture.
Similar is ch. 4:3-6 —"For the time of life which is past is enough for us to have worked out the will of the nations, having gone on in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, parties, carousings, and abominable idolatries. In these things they are surprised, that you are not running with them into the same excess of riot, blaspheming. But they shall give account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead. For to this end the gospel was preached also to the dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the Spirit."
Many in the past have combined this with Christ's burial, and have posited a whole scenario of Christ "descending into Hell", which must have had two sections, "paradise" for the righteous, and a place of suffering for the wicked; and that Christ preached to its inhabitants, and even bringing the righteous (such as Noah) back up with him, to Heaven. Some parts of this are now rejected by various interpreters, but still these passages do appear as "proofs" that the righteous dead before Christ were alive in Sheol/Hades, and now they are alive in "Heaven". Others see the reference to Noah as referring to fallen angels, who existed back then as well as now. But fallen angels are not "sometimes" disobedient, and the other [unfallen] angels are never disobedient. It is useless to "preach" to either.
In the context, above we see Paul is discussing unsaved people now (in his time, and of course it applies to our time as well), who taunt Christians for not living like them anymore. It was this same type of people in the "world" in Noah's time, who mocked as he built his ark to escape the coming judgment, and all soon perished. It was not those people in Noah's time who were being preached to by Christ, (unless you see Christ preaching to them through Noah) but just a comparison of the wickedness. The point is, Christ's message is being offered to these people in the world today, enslaved in the prison of sin and condemnation. This passage even seems to be a reference to (fulfilment of) the messianic prophecy in Isaiah 42:1-7 "Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect, in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit on Him; He shall bring out judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not fail nor be discouraged until He has set judgment in the earth; and the coasts shall wait for His law. So says God, the LORD He who created the heavens and stretched them out, spreading out the earth and its offspring; He who gives breath to the people on it and spirit to those who walk in it. I the LORD have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand, and will keep You, and give You for a covenant of the people, for a Light to the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes,to bring out the prisoners from the prison, those who sit in darkness out of the prison house".
This is even recognized in chain references. Sin is many times over referenced as both "prison" and "death".
Hanegraaf, in Christianity in Crisis, Harvest House, 1993 p. 396, uses this passage as a proof text of Christ descending to Hades to preach to the righteous in "paradise", but then his own Christian Research Journal (12-97 p.24,25) Luke Wilson, answering Mormon doctrine of the salvation of the dead (a logical possibility with common interpretation of the passage) shatters the idea. The passage suggests this happened after Christ was put to death, and then made alive. And he ultimately shows from the Greek that this passage is describing Christ's [SIZE=-1]PROCLAMATION[/SIZE] of victory which "took place in the context of this journey". (though he takes the view that it was to fallen angels; though after the resurrection). In the notes he adds :"I do not believe 1 Pet.3:18 ff can properly be understood in connection with the doctrine of Christ's descent into Hades during the time His body lay in the tomb".
Continuing from Hanegraaf's interpretations in the ch. 14 notes on p.396:
"Jesus took righteous out of Hades (paradise, Abraham's bosom) and to the throne of God":
Eph.4:8.9 "...When he ascended up on high he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men (Now that He ascended [it means] He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth)"
This is HORRIBLE exegesis! I am so surpised that someone like Hanegraaf, and the rest of "conservative" evangelicalism and fundamentalism uses it! You might as well throw a bunch of verses into a fishbowl and pick any one out blindfolded, and force the meaning into it! Just find any word in it like "led" or "captivity", that looks like "leading saints out of hades" might fit, and simply plug the meaning in. How can anyone talk about "cults" with that sort of interpretation? Talk about a "keyhole" method; at least they use a key that can be found somewhere in scripture! This is making up a "key" out of nowhere on the spot!
Anyway,
--this is talking about His burial and resurrection, and the redemption from the curse of sin it brought us. It says not a thing about carrying souls up to heaven (or "Abraham's bosom"), or carrying a whole section of Hades itself up to Heaven as Hanegraaf next maintains.
"In fact, Paradise is no longer in hades, but now in the throne room of God":
2 Cor. 12:2—Paul's trip to the "third heaven" ("paradise")
--But Paradise is never mentioned in scripture as having ever been in Hades. There has never been any such positive association with Hades in the Bible. It was always the very opposite of Paradise. (Recall it's description as a "place of sorrows" in the scriptures earlier cited. It's either one or the other.) This passage has always been used as proof of the idea that the soul "lives apart from" the body at death. People see "in the body/out of the body", and right away snatch this up with out so much as giving it a thought. Just look at the [SIZE=-1]CONTEXT[/SIZE]. This passage is not even talking about death! Paul [SIZE=-1]DID NOT DIE[/SIZE]! Paul was either actually carried up to heaven "in the body", or it was a [SIZE=-1]VISION[/SIZE] --"out of the body". And notice, no dead righteous are seen. This is poor eisegesis of scripture.