Did Jesus go to Hell

[DHK]

Continuing from Hanegraaf's interpretations in the ch. 14 notes on p.396:
"Jesus took righteous out of Hades (paradise, Abraham's bosom) and to the throne of God":
Eph.4:8.9 "...When he ascended up on high he led captivity captive and gave gifts to men (Now that He ascended [it means] He also first descended into the lower parts of the earth)"

This is HORRIBLE exegesis! I am so surpised that someone like Hanegraaf, and the rest of "conservative" evangelicalism and fundamentalism uses it! You might as well throw a bunch of verses into a fishbowl and pick any one out blindfolded, and force the meaning into it! Just find any word in it like "led" or "captivity", that looks like "leading saints out of hades" might fit, and simply plug the meaning in. How can anyone talk about "cults" with that sort of interpretation? Talk about a "keyhole" method; at least they use a key that can be found somewhere in scripture! This is making up a "key" out of nowhere on the spot!
Anyway,
--this is talking about His burial and resurrection, and the redemption from the curse of sin it brought us. It says not a thing about carrying souls up to heaven (or "Abraham's bosom"), or carrying a whole section of Hades itself up to Heaven as Hanegraaf next maintains.

So we should dismiss outright "the rest of conservative evangelicalism and fundamentalism," as you have declared, and accept your interpretation only.
Forgive me, but I would rather stick to the former who seem to have their heads on straight.
Christ descended into hell, proclaimed his victory to the disobedient spirits in hell and took the spirits from paradise into heaven with him. Thus the "paradise" mentioned by Paul is simply a synonym for heaven. As you said the greater part of evangelical scholars believe this, and for good reason--it is what the Bible teaches.

 

[Eric B]

It's not my interpretation, and what you said is not "what the Bible TEACHES", but that is rather the "interpretation", and that is the problem. What I advocate is just taking it for what it says. It mentioned nothing about taking saints out of hades to heaven (I am not arguing as to whether Paradise IS heaven or not. I would say it is, rather than it once being Hell!) You're just filtering it through a presupposition of "Christ descended into hell, proclaimed his victory to the disobedient spirits in hell and took the spirits from paradise into heaven with him" which is there stated as if it were a self-verifying "given" or something.
I provided contextual evidence from the passage itself (we cannot read verses in isolation of the surrounding discussion), as well as some acknowlegment from scholarly authorities: including one who teaches your view, and then publishes an article basically refuting it, at least in part! So again, it is not "my interpretation" versus everyone else.

 

[DHK]

I provided contextual evidence from the passage itself (we cannot read verses in isolation of the surrounding discussion), as well as some acknowlegment from scholarly authorities: including one who teaches your view, and then publishes an article basically refuting it, at least in part! So again, it is not "my interpretation" versus everyone else.

What contextual evidence?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
--Christ died. He was put to death. He rose again by the power of the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
--By that same power he went and preached unto the spirits in prison or hell.
Is that so difficult to understand? When the plain sense makes common sense why make it nonsense?

 

[webdog]

Scenario: you are scolded by your boss for being late. You go to your desk, pull out your schedule without ever saying a word, and show him you are actually an hour early. You have just declared to him you were not late...without actually doing so. Christ preaching or proclaiming to the spirits was done through his death and resurrection...His actions. By that, He declared victory.

edited to add proclaimed

 

[TCGreek]

Scenario: you are scolded by your boss for being late. You go to your desk, pull out your schedule, and show him you are actually an hour early. You have just declared to him you were not late...without actually doing so. Christ preaching to the spirits was done through his death and resurrection. By that, He declared victory.

New clothes, same body--you keep saying that Christ actions preached, when the Bible says, He went and proclaimed. There's a difference, my brother.

 

[webdog]

New clothes, same body--you keep saying that Christ actions preached, when the Bible says, He went and proclaimed. There's a difference, my brother.

Proclaimed, preached, the point is the same. I used preached from DHK's thread above, btw, and he agrees with you.

 

[TCGreek]

Proclaimed, preached, the point is the same. I used preached from DHK's thread above, btw, and he agrees with you.

Not necessarily, because a few paragraphs later, we have euangelizomai in 4:6, conveying the offer of salvation, but here at 3:19 we have kepysso and simply means "to proclaim," unless the context demands more.

 

[webdog]

Not necessarily, because a few paragraphs later, we have euangelizomai in 4:6, conveying the offer of salvation, but here at 3:19 we have kepysso and simply means "to proclaim," unless the context demands more.

Proclaiming supports my view better than preached...so there is no argument from me on that. You can proclaim something without ever uttering a word or being present. If I no show at my son's birthday party Sunday...I have proclaimed to being inconsiderate, bad parent, rude, etc.

 

[TCGreek]

Proclaiming supports my view better than preached...so there is no argument from me on that. You can proclaim something without ever uttering a word or being present. If I no show at my son's birthday party Sunday...I have proclaimed to being inconsiderate, bad parent, rude, etc.

1. You still have to deal with the fact that, "He went."

2. If it were just His actions that went and proclaim, then we must maintain that it was just his action which are at the right hand of God, "having gone into heaven," because behind "went" and "having gone," is the same Greek word, poreutheis.

3. Are you willing to go there?

 

[webdog]

3. Are you willing to go there?

Do you mean physically?

 

[TCGreek]

Do you mean physically?

C'mon, Webdog!

 

[Brother Bob]

1Pe 3:18¶For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2Pe 2:4¶For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Isa 61:1 ¶ The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

 

[Eric B]

What contextual evidence?

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
--Christ died. He was put to death. He rose again by the power of the Holy Spirit.

1 Peter 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
--By that same power he went and preached unto the spirits in prison or hell.
Is that so difficult to understand? When the plain sense makes common sense why make it nonsense?

To repeat:
In the context, we see Paul is discussing unsaved people now (in his time, and of course it applies to our time as well), who taunt Christians for not living like them anymore. It was this same type of people in the "world" in Noah's time, who mocked as he built his ark to escape the coming judgment, and all soon perished. It was not those people in Noah's time who were being preached to by Christ, (unless you see Christ preaching to them through Noah) but just a comparison of the wickedness. The point is, Christ's message is being offered to these people in the world today, enslaved in the prison of sin and condemnation. This passage even seems to be a reference to (fulfilment of) the messianic prophecy in Isaiah 42:1-7 "Behold My Servant, whom I uphold; My Elect, in whom My soul delights. I have put My Spirit on Him; He shall bring out judgment to the Gentiles. ... I the LORD have called You in righteousness, and will hold Your hand, and will keep You, and give You for a covenant of the people, for a Light to the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes,to bring out the prisoners from the prison, those who sit in darkness out of the prison house".
This is even recognized in chain references. Sin is many times over referenced as both "prison" and "death".

the point is, this has nothing to do with Christ entering Hell and bringing saints out of it!

 

[TCGreek]

1Pe 3:18¶For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

1Pe 3:19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

1Pe 3:20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

2Pe 2:4¶For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast [them] down to hell, and delivered [them] into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;


Isa 61:1 ¶ The Spirit of the Lord GOD [is] upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to [them that are] bound;

And what point are you making, BBob?

 

[Brother Bob]

That it was in the days of Noah, that the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead went and preached to them that were in prison. I am saying that this took place in the days of Noah and not while Jesus was in the tomb.
I do not believe that Christ would boast to the lost or mock them. Also, what would be the purpose for him preaching to the doomed.
I have heard brother preach "He went back" before which really through a wrench in the gears, but now I hear, He just proclaimed to the spirits in prison, "proclaimed what" does anyone think the doomed don't already know. The rich man knew, as a matter of fact, the rich man proclaimed a better repentance than I hear being taught by many today. He thought his five brothers could repent.

Now if I am correct that it happened in the days of Noah by the "same" Spirit which raised Christ from the dead and will also "quicken" our mortal bodies, that would make sense. IMO

Also, I believe Christ's hell was the cross itself when He was forsaken by everyone, including the Father so He could die. I think His soul went to be with the Father while His body lay in the tomb. He said "This day thou shalt be with me in paradise", well it was not going to be His body in paradise, for it was buried in the tomb, so it had to be His soul, after being delivered from the hell of the cross.
IMO
BBob,

 

[TCGreek]

That it was in the days of Noah, that the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead went and preached to them that were in prison. I am saying that this took place in the days of Noah and not while Jesus was in the tomb.

1. The subject of the paragraph is Christ and not the "Spirit."

2. "on the one hand, He[Christ] was put to death in the flesh, but on the other hand, He was made alive in the spirit, in which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison" (18-19). A simple, plain reading shows that Christ is the subject, not the Spirit.

I do not believe that Christ would boast to the lost or mock them. Also, what would be the purpose for him preaching to the doomed.

3. The Scripture didn't say that Christ "boast to the lost or mock them" when He went to the spirits in prison. Rather, He proclaimed.

I have heard brother preach "He went back" before which really through a wrench in the gears, but now I hear, He just proclaimed to the spirits in prison, "proclaimed what" does anyone think the doomed don't already know. The rich man knew, as a matter of fact, the rich man proclaimed a better repentance than I hear being taught by many today. He thought his five brothers could repent.

4. He went and proclaim His victory over sin and the devil.

Now if I am correct that it happened in the days of Noah by the "same" Spirit which raised Christ from the dead and will also "quicken" our mortal bodies, that would make sense. IMO

5. You would have to rearranged the structure of 1 Peter 3:18-19 to get that.

Also, I believe Christ's hell was the cross itself when He was forsaken by everyone, including the Father so He could die. I think His soul went to be with the Father while His body lay in the tomb. He said "This day thou shalt be with me in paradise", well it was not going to be His body in paradise, for it was buried in the tomb, so it had to be His soul, after being delivered from the hell of the cross.
IMO
BBob,

6. That's like saying our suffering refers to HELL. What is hell, BTW?

 

[webdog]

As was pointed out, I can proclaim something without saying or being somewhere.

 

[TCGreek]

As was pointed out, I can proclaim something without saying or being somewhere.

That is true, but is that what Christ really did?

 

[Brother Bob]

1. The subject of the paragraph is Christ and not the "Spirit."

2. "on the one hand, He[Christ] was put to death in the flesh, but on the other hand, He was made alive in the spirit, in which also He went and proclaimed to the spirits in prison" (18-19). A simple, plain reading shows that Christ is the subject, not the Spirit.

I think that it is referring in the Spirit, He went and preached to them. Christ was then as He is today, just in different form. The problem is not who went and preached to them, it is how He went and preached to them and now we must determined when that happen, and I think it tells us that it was in the days of Noah. How can He go and preach in the days of Noah, when that is long gone.

3. The Scripture didn't say that Christ "boast to the lost or mock them" when He went to the spirits in prison. Rather, He proclaimed.

Proclaimed what????

4. He went and proclaim His victory over sin and the devil.

The parable of the rich man tells us they already knew that. Who do you think the rich man was crying out to for help.

5. You would have to rearranged the structure of 1 Peter 3:18-19 to get that.

I don't think so at all, you just have to look at it in a different light, thinking all the time there is no purpose to go to the eternal hell and proclaim to the doom, so what is this scripture telling me?

6. That's like saying our suffering refers to HELL. What is hell, BTW?
__________________

No, its like saying our suffering refers to His suffering, which happened to be His hell, because He was confined there.

Hell is a place of confinement.
Eternal Hell is a place of confinement with punishment.

 

[BobRyan]

That it was in the days of Noah, that the same Spirit that raised Christ from the dead went and preached to them that were in prison. I am saying that this took place in the days of Noah and not while Jesus was in the tomb.

Amen!

Preach it!

That is the way to pay attention to those inconvenient details and rely upon them rather than avoiding them!

in Christ,

Bob