menageriekeeper
Active Member
To tempt Adam and Eve?
Throw out your best arguements pro and con!
Throw out your best arguements pro and con!
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Did Satan have God's Permission
- Thread starter menageriekeeper
- Start date
raying:
I am going to echo what everyone else said.
It's like I tell my 6th graders. "The devil is a created thing just like a turnip is a created thing. He is under the sovereign thumb of God, just like everyone and everything else. There is no good vs. evil - no God vs. the devil. God wins. All the time."
Psalm 103:15-19
"As for man, his days are like grass; As a flower of the field, so he flourishes. When the wind has passed over it, it is no more; And its place acknowledges it no longer. But the lovingkindness of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children’s children, To those who keep His covenant, And who remember His precepts to do them. The LORD has established His throne in the heavens; And His sovereignty rules over all.
It's like I tell my 6th graders. "The devil is a created thing just like a turnip is a created thing. He is under the sovereign thumb of God, just like everyone and everything else. There is no good vs. evil - no God vs. the devil. God wins. All the time."
Psalm 103:15-19
"As for man, his days are like grass; As a flower of the field, so he flourishes. When the wind has passed over it, it is no more; And its place acknowledges it no longer. But the lovingkindness of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear Him, And His righteousness to children’s children, To those who keep His covenant, And who remember His precepts to do them. The LORD has established His throne in the heavens; And His sovereignty rules over all.
:thumbsup:
FR7 Baptist
Active Member
God causes or allows all things to occur. When it comes to sin, God allowed Satan to tempt, even though God did not cause him to.
I agree, God did not cause him to. How could Satan be in rebellion if He did?
Satan literally "asked for permission" first, did it, and then was punished? Just clarifying the question...
Adam and Eve ? No.
Job ? yes.
Adam and Eve had the ability to sin, being created creatures like Satan and other angels, but they had not at that point willingly chosen sin over obedience.
They were created sinless, and perfect.
Sin and disobedience had not marred their perfection, they were still able to come before God without need to cover themselves.
If God gave Satan permission to tempt them knowing that sin is already within them, like Job's, then He would be chastising them and punishing them for something which He knew they cannot resist, as opposed to will not resist.
At this point in man's existence, these first two humans were the only ones with no sin-bound nature.
Job had a sin-bound nature.
In both cases, God's lessons were clear.
Only God is absolutely sinless and has no propensity to do acts of sin.
Yes, God knew Adam and Eve will eventually fall, and He knew Job will eventually resort to questioning Him.
But, prior to these events, though, He already had a plan by which He will redeem many from Adam's transgression, and He already had Job covered, and the reason He allowed both events anyway is for His people's benefit " For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope."
Satan was already in rebellion at that point. The Bible does not say that his fall happened at the garden. I think that his fall happened before creation.
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Thanks for posting this MK, I think it has potential to make a lively thread. I personally have several points I'd like to bring out on this topic, but for the next 3-4 days I'm gonna be consumed with tending to family that's coming in from all over for a wedding (I've also been requested to prepare a sushi/sashimi meal for tonight, so that's what I'm preparing for now)
Anyhow, my short answer is I don't know if permission was given, but I suspect that it was given, or at least there was a dialog between God and Satan prior to the account given in Gen 3.
Question: How many examples of dialogs between God and Satan do we have on record?
I agree that God knew Satan would tempt Eve, but he did not cause it.
This is baloney. We are not sin-bound. Yes, we all sin often, but never are we compelled to. I have sinned many times in my life, but I was never forced to and could have done the right thing if I would have chosen to do so. And there have been times in my life I have been very tempted to sin and did the right thing.
This teaching defies common sense and experience and makes an excuse for sin.
This is baloney. We are not sin-bound. Yes, we all sin often, but never are we compelled to. I have sinned many times in my life, but I was never forced to and could have done the right thing if I would have chosen to do so. And there have been times in my life I have been very tempted to sin and did the right thing.
This teaching defies common sense and experience and makes an excuse for sin.
If you were never forced to sin and could have done the right thing if you chose to but did not choose to do the right thing then you gave yourself over to what is natural to you, and in that case you are sin bound, therefore you're the one holding the baloney.
Deep fry it and eat it, it will melt in your mouth.:tongue3:
And again the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them, saying, Go, number Israel and Judah. 2 Sam 24:1
And Satan stood up against Israel, and moved David to number Israel. 1 Chron 21:1
Who caused this one Winman? God or Satan?
God loved Adam and Eve totally. This included total trust. God knew Satan would tempt them, but trusted that they would believe Him. He gave them freewill. When presented with two truths (you will die/you will not die) Eve became confused. She had never been lied to before, so to her, everything was truth. She took her eyes off God's truth, and considered another truth that She would be like God if she ate. This undermined God's truth, and her trust was weakened. Yes God allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve, because He loved them totally and trusted them not to believe Satan.
It is quite different to give one's self over to something than being forcibly compelled.
Jesus did not say we sin because we are slaves (servants) to sin, he said exactly the opposite, he said when we commit sin we become servants to sin.
John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Yet another example of Calvinism and Doctrines of Grace teaching exactly the opposite of what scripture says.
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Well, scholars debate on this, and I am not sure I can give the correct answer, as there are a lot of unknowns in this passage. But the answer to your question is BOTH.
There are however a few things we know for certain.
#1 We know that God never tempts any man to sin.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
#2 Taking a census in and of itself was not a sin. God had given Moses very specific instructions on taking censuses.
Exo 30:11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12 When thou takest the sum of the children of Israel after their number, then shall they give every man a ransom for his soul unto the LORD, when thou numberest them; that there be no plague among them, when thou numberest them.
13 This they shall give, every one that passeth among them that are numbered, half a shekel after the shekel of the sanctuary: (a shekel is twenty gerahs: ) an half shekel shall be the offering of the LORD.
14 Every one that passeth among them that are numbered, from twenty years old and above, shall give an offering unto the LORD.
15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
So, taking a census was not forbidden, but there were specific instructions that had to be followed.
Now, some scholars believe this could be the problem, that David did not follow the Lord's instructions, or did so with improper motives. This is speculation, but it is shown in the account that something was wrong, because Joab and David's captains objected and tried to prevent him from taking this census for some unknown and unspecified reason.
2 Sam 24:3 And Joab said unto the king, Now the LORD thy God add unto the people, how many soever they be, an hundredfold, and that the eyes of my lord the king may see it: but why doth my lord the king delight in this thing?
4 Notwithstanding the king's word prevailed against Joab, and against the captains of the host. And Joab and the captains of the host went out from the presence of the king, to number the people of Israel.
Matthew Henry in his commentary offers several speculations of why this census was a sin, but no one knows for certain. First, that taking a census in itself was not a sin.
So, if God moved David to take a census, this is not God tempting him to do evil.
But now Satan comes in, perhaps Satan tempted David to take this census in some improper and sinful manner, or for sinful motives. Here are what some scholars have speculated.
So, this is a matter we will never know because not enough information is provided.
Was David moved by God to number the people? Yes. But that is not a sin.
Was David moved by Satan to number the people? Yes, and somehow this introduced sin, but we are not told the specific sin.
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Well, the sholars overlook the obvious.
The rift between Judah and Israel (northern tribes) that eventually did split the nation after the reign of Solomon was already simmering. David was aware of this, and was trusting in the sword instead of God. David probably already had a [evil heart of unbelief?] desire to know if his tribe of Judah had the army to stand against or defeat the Northern Tribes of Israel if need be. The census was all about obtaining military intelligence, and there would be no hiding this fact from the Northern Tribes, thus the consternation of Joab and David's captains, and why they objected and tried to prevent him from taking this census. Period. To understand this, all one has to do is to consider the emphasis/results of the census:
....there were in Israel eight hundred thousand valiant men that drew the sword; and the men of Judah were five hundred thousand men. 2 Sam 24:9
God moved David, through Satan, to perform the count (Satan gets the blame, not God). As I said, David was most likely already wanting to know the strength of the potential armies of the two sides. I imagine that performing the census only caused the rift between the two to widen, which in turn caused David to see his sin and realize how wrong he was to perform the census, and it made him very afraid (1 Chron 21:8; 2 Sam 24:10) when he realized how outnumbered his tribe of Judah was . Also remember, “the anger of Jehovah was kindled against Israel” (i.e., The Northern Tribes), which was why God moved David against them in the first place. I think it's significant to note that the destruction wrought by the pestilence that ravaged the Northern Tribes ceased before it reached Judah, and the count between the two [potential] armies was probably more on an even keel after the destruction that was wrought by the pestilence was done.
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Directly from the law of Moses:
12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
13 but ye shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and ye shall cut down their Asherim;
14 for thou shalt worship no other god: for Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
15 lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot after their gods, and sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee and thou eat of his sacrifice;
16 and thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters play the harlot after their gods, and make thy sons play the harlot after their gods. Ex 34
3 neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. Dt 7
1 And Samson went down to Timnah, and saw a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines.
2 And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife.
3 Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.
4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of Jehovah; for he sought an occasion against the Philistines. Now at that time the Philistines had rule over Israel. Judges 14
It's stated very plainly in the law of Moses that the Israelites were not to take wives from the uncircuimcised, yet the narration in Judges says very plainly that it was of Jehovah for Samson to do just that.
Any comments on this one?
12 Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee:
13 but ye shall break down their altars, and dash in pieces their pillars, and ye shall cut down their Asherim;
14 for thou shalt worship no other god: for Jehovah, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
15 lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they play the harlot after their gods, and sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee and thou eat of his sacrifice;
16 and thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters play the harlot after their gods, and make thy sons play the harlot after their gods. Ex 34
3 neither shalt thou make marriages with them; thy daughter thou shalt not give unto his son, nor his daughter shalt thou take unto thy son. Dt 7
1 And Samson went down to Timnah, and saw a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines.
2 And he came up, and told his father and his mother, and said, I have seen a woman in Timnah of the daughters of the Philistines: now therefore get her for me to wife.
3 Then his father and his mother said unto him, Is there never a woman among the daughters of thy brethren, or among all my people, that thou goest to take a wife of the uncircumcised Philistines? And Samson said unto his father, Get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.
4 But his father and his mother knew not that it was of Jehovah; for he sought an occasion against the Philistines. Now at that time the Philistines had rule over Israel. Judges 14
It's stated very plainly in the law of Moses that the Israelites were not to take wives from the uncircuimcised, yet the narration in Judges says very plainly that it was of Jehovah for Samson to do just that.
Any comments on this one?
Tom Butler
New Member
Would you like to re-think this post? How can God know that Satan will tempt Adam and Eve, but not know that she will succumb and persuade Adam to do the same?
And if God did not know their response, why did the Godhead plan for the Son to be crucified for their sin (and ours) a few thousand years later? Thus the scripture reference to Jesus' being "slain from the foundation of the world."
How could an omniscient God not know in advance Adam and Eve's response to Satan?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Tom, a little "aside" on your analysis. I do not read "luke" as indicating that God was not aware of what their choice would be in the matter of sin. Second, the reference to the plan of salvation (proto-evangelion) first shows up after the scripture records the events of mankind's fall into disobedience, however, only the most ardent of "open theists" would assume the postion that God did not "know" how things would transpire. So, in my humble opinion, "we" could be making "much ado about nothing", with respect to "lukes" post. Of course, he/she can correct me or both of us.