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Did the Apostles believe That Jesus Would return In their Lifetimes?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
Hello Jesusfan,
I think that 1Thes 4:15 suggests that Paul thought it was at least possible that our Lord might return before he died (but see also 2Tim 4:6-8). But of course, he didn't know because no one knows.
I think the point is that we should allbe thinking that way. We should be expecting and longing for the imminent return of Christ. That is the way to resist temptation: 'If the Lord returned tonight, would I want Him to see me doing this?' (Whatever 'this' might be).
Consider this text.
"Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt 24:45-51 (NKJV)
This is why Hyper-preterism is such a wicked teaching. It says to young and inexperienced Christians, Not only is the Master delaying His coming, He's not coming at all! You can eat and drink with the drunkards and there's plenty of time to repent later on.
As I pointed out on another thread, all the early churches were eagerly awaiting the return of Christ (1Thes 1:10; 1Cor 1:7; Phil 3:17-19; Heb 9:28; Titus 2:11-13). To say that we can scratch these verses out of our Bibles because they don't apply to us anymore is the height of foolishness.
Our word to one another should be same one as the early Christians spoke: "Maranatha!" O Lord, come! (1Cor 16:22).
Steve
I think that 1Thes 4:15 suggests that Paul thought it was at least possible that our Lord might return before he died (but see also 2Tim 4:6-8). But of course, he didn't know because no one knows.
I think the point is that we should allbe thinking that way. We should be expecting and longing for the imminent return of Christ. That is the way to resist temptation: 'If the Lord returned tonight, would I want Him to see me doing this?' (Whatever 'this' might be).
Consider this text.
"Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his master made ruler over his household, to give them food in due season? Blessed is that servant whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Assuredly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all his goods. But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites. There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
Matt 24:45-51 (NKJV)
This is why Hyper-preterism is such a wicked teaching. It says to young and inexperienced Christians, Not only is the Master delaying His coming, He's not coming at all! You can eat and drink with the drunkards and there's plenty of time to repent later on.
As I pointed out on another thread, all the early churches were eagerly awaiting the return of Christ (1Thes 1:10; 1Cor 1:7; Phil 3:17-19; Heb 9:28; Titus 2:11-13). To say that we can scratch these verses out of our Bibles because they don't apply to us anymore is the height of foolishness.
Our word to one another should be same one as the early Christians spoke: "Maranatha!" O Lord, come! (1Cor 16:22).
Steve
Also, wouldn't that meam we all missed return of jesus and getting glorified in our physical bodies IF hyper pretierism is true?
paul addressed this concern, and said that it would NOT happen until jesus came back with trump of God and voice of Archangel...
Still waiting to see Historical evidence that already has happened!
A profoundly ignorant thing to say. You have no idea what Preterists believe. I don't think you even care to have the record set straight. I only hope that you do not have a pulpit or teacher's lectern.
Just for the record - not for Steve, but for others, for Bereans:
We all have an end to our lives. And we do not know when that end is. Many a presumptuous person has been caught in his sin, unable to repent. Many others are hardened past caring. Where is the antinomianism in this? How am I encouraging profligacy and scoffing?
We all will meet God and give an answer to how we lived our lives, how we acted in Christian boards, how we treated others who name the name of Christ.
There is a Lake of Fire for those who prove to be unpersuaded by the Gospel of Grace. There is an outer darkness of conscious torment.
Let us be Bereans, testing what we hear from others - however it might challenge us - by Scripture alone.
I am totally convinced not only that what some here call heresy is actually Gospel truth. I thank God for learning this and, with His grace, I will continue teaching it.
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Um, "Lake of Fire" ? "outer darkness"?
Tom, If "all has been fulfilled" hasn't everyone already been cast into the Lake of Fire who is going there as a result of the Great White Throne Judgement recorded in the Book of Revelation 20:11-15?
Or AD70 when Christ came in His Glory:
Matthew 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
HankD
Et tu, Hank?
Here take a look at this link that explains my Preterist position on this:
http://www.preterist.org/refutingerror.asp
Disinformation is a bear to fix.
No Tom.
It was an honest observation. I'm just trying to iron out some wrinkles.
Disinformation is not the same as my ignorance of your position.
I know everyone is piling on you, but not everyone who disagrees with you is trying to stab you. It's understandable you are shell-shock.
BTW, I couldn't find mention of the Great White Throne Judgement in the link you gave.
I did however find mention of "the darkness of entrenched futurism":
I'm not convinced. Either the Great White Throne Judgement and the resulting Lake of Fire consequence is past tense or it is not.
HankD
I wrote that unclearly, Hank, the disinformation came from others. I didn't mean to imply that I thought it was you.
Why is that?
First of all let me say that the article I linked is not as clear as it could have been. It is trying to say that Preterism (I'll call it correct Preterism, though some will disallow me that) is fighting a two-front battle, from futurism on the outside and from the three main deviations from within Preterism (annihilationism, universalism and ... I forget the other one just now).
The main reason I quoted that is to show that, whether perceived as consistent or not, I do believe in judgment and personal consequences and reward.
Now why should all of that be in the past?
The fact is, my personal death is in the future.
And, according to Scripture, there is judgment after death.
Judgment (whether in a good or bad sense) is necessarily future.
Not so, we have passed from death unto life. No?
And that is what is still very unclear to me, that if all is fulfilled and Christ has come again (AD70) and caused the general resurrection (which apparently no apostolic or early church father was aware of) why are we (22nd century believers) still able to sin, go on to physical death, the world by all appearances still under the sway of the evil one, etc...
Further, no full preterist I have asked has given me an answer as to how long this sin and death will go on under the reign of Christ or explain how this world will end.
HankD
I think Jesus will return in my lifetime, too.
"The world just CAN'T get any worse - judgment/wrath of heaven MUST be just around the corner. A decade at most."
(BTW, that was said by my seminary president in 1964 after Goldwater was defeated and America turned on the LBJ rampant socialism.
And 1964 seems like the good old days, compared to 2011, right?
)
"The world just CAN'T get any worse - judgment/wrath of heaven MUST be just around the corner. A decade at most."
(BTW, that was said by my seminary president in 1964 after Goldwater was defeated and America turned on the LBJ rampant socialism.
And 1964 seems like the good old days, compared to 2011, right?
)Originally Posted by Martin Marprelate
This is why Hyper-preterism is such a wicked teaching. It says to young and inexperienced Christians, Not only is the Master delaying His coming, He's not coming at all! You can eat and drink with the drunkards and there's plenty of time to repent later on.
Steve
This is why Hyper-preterism is such a wicked teaching. It says to young and inexperienced Christians, Not only is the Master delaying His coming, He's not coming at all! You can eat and drink with the drunkards and there's plenty of time to repent later on.
Well? Is the Master returning? Yes or no? I think I understand Hyper-preterism all too well.
Was it not Augustine who prayed, "O Lord, give me the gift of continence- but not yet!"? Of course he knew he had to die, but he thought he had plenty of time to get right with God. In his case, he was right, but many people never quite get around to repenting because they think they can do it later. Hyper-preterism is wicked exactly because it encourages such an attitude. Worldliness is the bane of the Church. Every congregation should have regular sermons on the impending Coming of Christ- not based, of course, on the latest news from the Middle East, but on the clear teaching of the word of God.
Amen! 'If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine [the doctrine of Christ] do not receive him into your house nor greet him; for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds' (2John 10-11).
Amen! Is that why you are constantly (and incorrectly) appealing to the ECFs and debating the date of Revelation rather than its content? I might add that the 18th Century Unitarians spread their poisonous doctrine by just such an appeal to Scripture, as do the JWs today.
Steve
That injunction is against those who do not confess Christ as coming in the flesh. He did come in the flesh. You're attempting to use it against me demonstrates your lack of Christian graces and spiritual acumen.
Where have you been? I have been discussing content of Scripture.
I don't ignore the ECF, because they are historical evidence. Such evidence is way below Scripture. Hardly "constantly". The only reason I refereed to them more than I usually do is because of the ill-informed comments from people like you about what they taught or what they never wrote.
You know, Steve. I think you are right. I have been dwelling too long on the extra-biblical writings. Thanks for the reminder.
Back in a bit.