Discord among the brethren

Partisans on both sides have said things they probably shouldn't have. At times it's hard to tell that this is a Christian forum, given the name-calling and sarcasm. I usually stay out of the debate to avoid saying something I would later regret. Winning an argument on an internet forum is, after all, not a high priority. Part of the problem is that some KJVOs seem to perceive themselves as latter-day prophets, the last tiny remnant of true believers who must nobly fight off the legions of "Bible-haters" attacking God's Word. Therefore, they feel they are entitled to denounce and correct in whatever language they choose. (It is in this area that they are the most mistaken, in my opinion.) MVers resent this attitude and tend to fire back passionately, and even angrily. We may have reached a point where reasoned, respectful discussion is no longer possible.

 

It's comments like these that are disrespectful and inflammatory . Do you really want to understand why KJBOs get upset, read the bias and hypocrisy in these two posts.

 

Perhaps you would be willing to tell us what was "disrepectful and inflammatory," biased and hypocritical in those posts.

 

Pastor Larry,

Well let’s see here, the KJV crowd is the disproportionate cause of discord here and KJV people are mean and sarcastic. How’s that for starters. I find this unacceptable to make blanket condemnations of entire groups of people. I find these comments personally offensive. I could easily make my case against MVrs and make it equally disrespectful and inflame them to anger. I could prove my point by copying comments from prior threads. These two posts are indicative of the atmosphere here regarding the KJVO position. The MVrs view themselves as the ones who only “fire back passionately” after being attacked. This is the utter height of falsehood. The bias and hypocrisy of these statements is unbelievable. I have had two MVrs who condemned me for doing exactly the same thing they were doing. They accused me of not being Christ-like when they were equally guilty. When I confronted them with this they both apologized publicly. They recognized that I was right. Now I commend them for recognizing this. This is an obvious sign of the conviction from above in their hearts. Nothing stinks like a hypocrite, in God’s eyes or anyone else’s. Now I have debated very vigorously here, and many times took things too far. An example of this is documented in my apology to you in the last closed thread. But one thing I do not do, and that is condemn others for doing exactly the same thing I am doing. Personally I think Pastor Bob or TomVols should delete this thread. I certainly don’t want to engage in a mud slinging contest with MVrs in this thread. But as you can see, I did not start it. I was not the one who started a thread called “Discord among the brethren” and then set out to assign blame to certain group, now did I. This should be all the evidence anyone needs as to who is sowing discord here. Just imagine that, starting a thread like this, assigning blame, and you don’t see the bias and hypocrisy in that?

 

Having observed this forum for well over a year and 5000+ posts, most of the discord has been sown by those on the KJVOnly side, calling us on the other side Bible haters and Bible correctors, Bible deniers, ignorant, etc. etc. etc. The reality is that, whether you like it or not, most of the discord has been sown by that side. The other side is not free from blame to be sure. There have been some people on my side who have made some ridiculously stupid statements. That is inexcusable.

But look at it this way: We are not trying to run the KJV users out of the "Kingdom." Your side certainly has tried that. Our salvation has been questioned because we prefer to have the word of God in the language we speak. Our love for God's word has been questioned. Our authority being God's word has been questioned. I can tell you without any apology that my authority is the absolute truth of God's word. I don't appreciate anyone questioning that. If you have read many of my posts here, you know where I stand on the authority of Scripture.

We can differ on the means through which God has preserved his word without it degenerating into attacks of Bible haters and Bible correctors. There is a simple matter of facts that often gets overlooked in the heat of this discussion. When we try to call attention to that, we are blamed for the problems. We are told we are ignorant, when in fact, the truth has been clearly represented. Consider a recent case where JYD made some statements about the NKJV. I posted a detailed post of facts that anyone is welcome to check out. There was no opinion in my post whatsoever. Anyone with access to Greek New Testaments can verify that what I said was the truth. Yet JYD responded by telling me I was willfully ignorant of the truth. He did not even attempt to engage the discussion. While we resent this, we must maintain our cool.

I don't think there was anything biased or hypocritical about what was posted here. Nor do I think that everyone on your side is guilty. But the facts are what they are. IMO, I think this hit a little too close to home ... I hope it did for some on your side. There should not be discord of the nature that so often comes up. I appreciate the posts of Pastor Bob. Very rarely will you see him engaged in a fight. But his position is one that is well reasoned and while I disagree, he allows me the freedom of my convictions based on the word of God without trying to run me out.

 

Pastor Larry,

You said: [Having observed this forum for well over a year and 5000+ posts, most of the discord has been sown by those on the KJVOnly side, calling us on the other side Bible haters and Bible correctors, Bible deniers, ignorant, etc. etc. etc. The reality is that, whether you like it or not, most of the discord has been sown by that side. The other side is not free from blame to be sure. There have been some people on my side who have made some ridiculously stupid statements. That is inexcusable.].

This is your bias. The predominance of the posters here are pro-MV. In the last thread I single-handedly debated you and 3 others. This is akin to the reasoning that KJVOs should not bring up the issue, that it sows discord among the brethren. Listen, when tens of thousands of changes are made to our beloved Bible, don’t say we are sowing discord when we bring up the issue. You are as much of the problem as we are. Anything less than this is bias.

You said: [But look at it this way: We are not trying to run the KJV users out of the "Kingdom." Your side certainly has tried that. Our salvation has been questioned because we prefer to have the word of God in the language we speak. Our love for God's word has been questioned. Our authority being God's word has been questioned. I can tell you without any apology that my authority is the absolute truth of God's word. I don't appreciate anyone questioning that. If you have read many of my posts here, you know where I stand on the authority of Scripture.].

Do we have to rehash this here. The word of God in a language we speak and all. Can’t you just quit with this for just a little bit.

You said: [We can differ on the means through which God has preserved his word without it degenerating into attacks of Bible haters and Bible correctors. There is a simple matter of facts that often gets overlooked in the heat of this discussion. When we try to call attention to that, we are blamed for the problems. We are told we are ignorant, when in fact, the truth has been clearly represented. Consider a recent case where JYD made some statements about the NKJV. I posted a detailed post of facts that anyone is welcome to check out. There was no opinion in my post whatsoever. Anyone with access to Greek New Testaments can verify that what I said was the truth. Yet JYD responded by telling me I was willfully ignorant of the truth. He did not even attempt to engage the discussion. While we resent this, we must maintain our cool.].

I personally agree with you here. I checked your post as soon as you posted it and you were correct. I side with you here. JYDs glaring refusal to face the truth on this particular specific is part of what inspired me to apologize to you on the issue regarding the temple. When someone is wrong, their just plain wrong. End of subject.

You said: [I don't think there was anything biased or hypocritical about what was posted here. Nor do I think that everyone on your side is guilty. But the facts are what they are. IMO, I think this hit a little too close to home ... I hope it did for some on your side. There should not be discord of the nature that so often comes up. I appreciate the posts of Pastor Bob. Very rarely will you see him engaged in a fight. But his position is one that is well reasoned and while I disagree, he allows me the freedom of my convictions based on the word of God without trying to run me out.]

I still contend the very nature of this thread as it was started is to condemn KJVOs and assign the blame for discord on them. I still contend it takes two to tango, and this condemnation is bias and hypocrisy at its most flagrant. You have chosen to ignore the bias and hypocrisy of this thread and join in supporting it, but this only proves my point. Maybe that hits a little too close to home for you?

 

Terry,

The Bible version issue is going to be immense in the coming years. Opposition is growing rapidly to the prolific flood of versions on the market and the liberal bent toward modern scholarship in the seminaries. I’m afraid discord is inevitable. If anyone here places discord among the brethren ahead of this issue, then learn to compromise with the other side. Otherwise, do not condemn the other side for opposing you.

I for one desire fellowship with my fellow Baptist. I have established fellowship with a few MVrs at BB so far. I certainly do not condemn any of them for vigorous debate. We are big boys and big girls here, and this is a big issue. Sometimes things get a little too strong for those with a weak stomach, but this is certainly going to be a fight. It’s probably akin to the civil war. Brother fought brother many times. This was unfortunate, but necessary.

I have no doubt that this will continue to be uncomfortable for the brethren, but that will not stop heated debate. Far too many changes have been introduced into MVs for people like myself to accept. I cannot accept that I am to just sit back and live with scholars changing the Bible in thousands of places. And I certainly will not accept someone assigning blame to me for the discord resulting from this.

 

Tens of thousands of changes haven't been made to your Bible. This is a point where you emphasize something that simply is not of great importance. You assert that the KJV is the only word of God and that anything different has been changed. I deny that. I think the KJV is an excellent translation but God did not establish that as the standard. The question cannot be, "Is X translation identical to the KJV?" That is a faulty approach. The quesiton to judge translations by is this: Is X translation a faithful translation of the original language texts.

I have dealt with many people for whom the KJV is a discouraging and daunting task. It has kept them from reading and understanding the word of God. As a youth pastor in a KJOnly church, I would routinely get questions from teens asking what a verse meant. I wanted very badly to be able to tell them to open up a modern translation because it was crystal clear.

Inability to understand KJV English is not a matter of Holy Spirit enlightenment as some have made it out to be. Language is cultural. Our culture is different than it was 400 years ago and the language has changed with it, even to the point that words used in teh KJV have the completely opposite meaning now than they did then. But God desires for people today to understand his word just as much and just as readily as he desired them to in the first century.

If people like the KJV English, then have it at it. Love it, study it, preach it, and live by it. But don't condemn those who us who prefer a modern language translation.

When I first opened this thread, the thought that you had never crossed my mind. While I can better understand where you are coming from, your imporession was not my impression. The only thing that hits close to home for me is when people's spirituality and love for God are judged by what version they use rather than by whether or not they live by the version they use.

The reality is that full obedience to the KJV will look exactly like full obedience to the NIV, the NASB, or the NKJV. It will even look like full obedience to the RSV or the NRSV (as much as it pains me to say that). And if one is honest with doctrine, the doctrine of the KJV is the same as the doctrines of the others. The point is that while individual readings may be added to the KJV or deleted from the MVs (depending on your perspective), there is not one doctrine that has been omitted. They are all there. And people who hodl firmly to the KJV will believe exactly what people who hold firmly to the NASB or the NIV, or the NKJV will believe.

So in the bottom line, use what you want and what you love. But don't cause division over it and don't blast us out of Christianity because our conscience guided by Scripture and the Holy Spirit allows us to use something else.

 

Good grief.

 

I would call attention to the fact that the word of God does command a contention for the faith on the part of those who know God (Jude 3). If we who post here do know Him then this pertains to us. While it may be Jude 3 chiefly refers to the Gospel of Christ as set forth in the Scripture I think that application-wise it does not shut out a contending for the written word of God on the whole. If some people are in the bussiness of undermining the authority and quality of the written word of God I cannot see it is a sowing of discord to stand up for the word of God contending for it in its purity, and doing so by attending to measures which are called for and lawful.

I think the KJV Onlyites are right in that the flood of modern versions is a PROBLEM. It must not be ignored, but must be dealt with by those who profess to love the truth. But KJV Onlyism is an unskillful approach to the modern versions problem, because its adherents on the whole keep on resorting to untruths and falsifyings of facts. I could give many examples, but will only mention as example the falsehood that the KJV has taken the place of its underlying original language texts as THE ultimate and absolutely final authority in matters of faith and practice etc. Another example would be the persisting falsehood that the KJV is absolutely 100 per cent perfect in the sense of being beyond any improvement as to its renderings.

As I see it dynamic equivalency and paraphrasing when it comes to the word of God are translational heresies. These wickednesses must be combatted lawfully. Another big problem in the same area is the Alexandrian editions of the Greek NT, as well as the so called Majority Text. Because they are evidently inferior to the Received Text type editions of the same it is not wise or good to promote them as the best texts. The man who knows His God will not settle for the mediocre, but for that which is excellent, resulting in his setting aside such Greek NT editions as are inferior, in favour of that which is superior. As for me I aim to contend lawfully against the Alexandrian editions and the MT, and for the TR.

As pertains to the Hebrew OT I think the modern text of Kittel is a problem as well.

In conclusion, the two biggest problems I come to think of now are dynamic equivalency (both the philosophy & the versions) and non-TR Greek NT's, and of course the fruit of these - inferior modern(-ist) versions. If any will call me a sower of discord for my position then be it so, I will take on all comers as the Lord may grant wisdom and strength.

Harald

 

Larry,

You said: [Tens of thousands of changes haven't been made to your Bible.].

Yes there have been that many changes. This is well documented. There are many books on just this subject alone.

You said: [I have dealt with many people for whom the KJV is a discouraging and daunting task. It has kept them from reading and understanding the word of God. ].

I go to a KJBO church and have had no such problem. We even had a man visit recently that was saved by a KJBO street preacher. The man was an illiterate bum that lived on the street. He was taught to read from the KJB and has little sympathy for your view.

You said: [Inability to understand KJV English is not a matter of Holy Spirit enlightenment as some have made it out to be. Language is cultural. Our culture is different than it was 400 years ago and the language has changed with it, even to the point that words used in teh KJV have the completely opposite meaning now than they did then. But God desires for people today to understand his word just as much and just as readily as he desired them to in the first century.]

I have found that the few archaic words pale in comparison to the substantive word changes and deletions in the MVs. I have called this gnat straining and camel swallowing in the past, and I still do.

You said: [If people like the KJV English, then have it at it. Love it, study it, preach it, and live by it. But don't condemn those who us who prefer a modern language translation.].

For me it is not about condemning you. In fact, you’re a likeable person. I simply disagree with your position.

You said: [When I first opened this thread, the thought that you had never crossed my mind. While I can better understand where you are coming from, your imporession was not my impression. The only thing that hits close to home for me is when people's spirituality and love for God are judged by what version they use rather than by whether or not they live by the version they use.].

I thought Terry opened the thread. Maybe you mean when you entered the thread? You and I have come to understandings before. You are a reasonable man I believe. Trust me, God is your judge and mine, and I certainly will not judge your heart. As far as you position goes, I do take issue with that. Please do not confuse the two.

You said: [The reality is that full obedience to the KJV will look exactly like full obedience to the NIV, the NASB, or the NKJV. It will even look like full obedience to the RSV or the NRSV (as much as it pains me to say that). And if one is honest with doctrine, the doctrine of the KJV is the same as the doctrines of the others. The point is that while individual readings may be added to the KJV or deleted from the MVs (depending on your perspective), there is not one doctrine that has been omitted. They are all there. And people who hodl firmly to the KJV will believe exactly what people who hold firmly to the NASB or the NIV, or the NKJV will believe. ].

Larry, I could debate this with you for months. I really don’t want to get into this tonight. I need a break. I will say that only time will tell what the spiritual fruit of all these versions will be.

You said: [So in the bottom line, use what you want and what you love. But don't cause division over it and don't blast us out of Christianity because our conscience guided by Scripture and the Holy Spirit allows us to use something else.].

The variant readings will invariably cause division, but I for one will not blast you out of Christianity over it.

 

This will be my last post here (unless something drastic is said ... ). These "changes" are changes to a translation of the Bible; God's word has not been changed. Here, you again assume that the KJV is the only Bible and that changes to it are changes to what God has revealed. I reject that, if for no other reason, that the KJV itself has made many changes, not all of which can be attributed to spelling and punctuation (as if those are someone exempt from being perfect).

The fact is that these "changes" may well represent a return to a more pure text form and in fact, I believe they do. But there has never been shown to a doctrinal change in the MVs, and it hasn't been for lack of trying. Here, we have had many try to show a doctrinal change but the best they can do is come up with a verse that has a different reading. The doctrine is still the same.

So I would simply remind us that prior to 1769 there was a lack of God's word if identity to the KJV is the test of God's word. The changes that have been made are changes based on the evidence that God has preserved for us. Dealing exclusively in modern versions for the last five years of ministry, the only problem that was ever caused was by a KJVOnlyist who, after sitting in my office for about 30 minutes, realized there was a lot that he had never thought about.

I have found far greater fruit in the use of a modern version than I ever did with the KJV. If others find differently, then by all means, use whatever you will love and live by.

 

"The Bible version issue is going to be immense in the coming years"? Oh really. Most thinking and educated people, while honoring the role and work of the KJV, realize that it is based on an inferior NT text, and that it's language is archaic. The only ones raising a 'fuss' will be the KJV-only crowd. One wishes they would get upset about something important. While modern liberal scholarship should cause concern, it certainly doesn't mean that we reject, out-of-hand, ANY modern scholarship. "Civil War"? C'mon. Get off your 'high-horse'. You are making a spectacle of yourself, and giving the Church a bad name.

 

Jude,

You said: ["The Bible version issue is going to be immense in the coming years"? Oh really. Most thinking and educated people, while honoring the role and work of the KJV, realize that it is based on an inferior NT text, and that it's language is archaic. The only ones raising a 'fuss' will be the KJV-only crowd. One wishes they would get upset about something important. While modern liberal scholarship should cause concern, it certainly doesn't mean that we reject, out-of-hand, ANY modern scholarship. "Civil War"? C'mon. Get off your 'high-horse'. You are making a spectacle of yourself, and giving the Church a bad name.].

This is probably as good a statement as one could make to prove my point. “Most thinking and educated people” Jude? You are the epitome of this modern day intelligentsia that exalts man’s wisdom where it does not belong. Only thinking and educated people could be blind to the effect of a new version coming out every 6 months. I mean, only someone with 6 years of seminary could be that blind. Many of my KJBO brothers that post on here have a lot of zeal but not always a lot of knowledge. Does that make them wrong? I'm sure it does in the eyes of someone like you. In your mind God reveals truth to the wise men. Well Jude, I have a lot of education and was always at the top of my class, but you know, I got over it. I realized there was more to it than just a cold rationalistic view of historical facts and history. Do you want to know why KJBOs are caustic at times, then reread your pompous post. You set it up from the onset I would have to be the exception to thinking and educated people to believe this. You told me to get off my high-horse. You told me I was making a spectacle of myself, and then you closed by saying I’m giving the Church a bad name. Only on an Internet discussion forum could you get away with such arrogant and insulting language. If you spoke to someone like that at your church you might get a punch in the face. Please, anyone that talks like you MVrs has no place condemning KBJOs for caustic language. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees brother Jude.

 

Dr Bob Griffin,

You said: [Discord among brothers? Looks like two different ways of looking at God's Word and its translation, and that is not "discord"; it is "soul liberty" that is a hallmark of baptist distinctives.

Just reading through this forum (which I force myself to visit weekly) is moot testimony of the bankruptcy of the aberrent theology of the "onlies". My only prayer is that this modernistic view (only since 1970) will soon be relegated to the back shelf of historic baptist fundamentalism.].

You know, you have a very non-biblical view of what changing God’s word around means. This is very telling to KJBOs. Your reckless disregard for the word of God is completely unacceptable to me. Changing God’s words around is not your Christian liberty by any stretch of the imagination. This is a false and I believe blasphemous statement and representative of the attitude that is exactly what KJBOs disdain and reject wholly. Modernistic liberals like you handle God’s word like a 5 year old that just found daddy’s gun. We’ll just wait and see where your non-biblical liberty to change the word of God every 6 months gets you over the next 50 to 100 years.