Dispensational fairness doctrine?

If the points you’ve defined are accurate and the general Arminian view is as you’ve expressed it, then I would have the same questions as you. It does seem contradictory.

 

npetreley,
I've been debating this for years and I haven't seen this argument before. Let me see if I understand what your point is:

Your saying that the Arminian viewpoint is contradictory because God is apparently fair now since the Holy Spirit's drawing of all mankind came after his assention into heaven. But he was also apparently unfair to those on earth before the assention of Christ because they all had not yet been "enabled" by God as taught in John 6.

Great point! I'm interested in hearing a response to that as well.

4study, I know you don't carry the label "Arminian" and therefore have avoided this apparent contradiction, but I would be interested in knowing how you handle Jesus' teaching in John 6 that speaks of only some being enabled by God?

Sam

[ January 29, 2003, 03:33 PM: Message edited by: Samuel ]

 

I don't have a problem with John 6:65. The word translated enabled or granted, depending on your translation, comes from the word didomi, which means, simply, to give. I see nothing from an analysis that says that if a person is given an ability to say yes, that person MUST say yes. Through Christ, all men are called - the ability to say "yes" was granted - though not all say "yes." Through his foreknowledge, God, indeed knows, what every man's free choice is, which is what Jesus says when he knows who will say yes and who would betray him.

Concerning the call of the Holy Spirit, it seems that John 16 refers to this, so upon Pentecost, He began the work of convicting men of their sin.

 

Samuel,

I don't understand John 6 in either the general Calvinist way or the Arminian way that npetreley has documented here. My view of it comes from my conviction of what the words "believe" (Gk. pistis or pisteuos) and "come to" (Gk. erchomai pros) mean.

I also do not understand the scriptures to teach that the Holy Spirt began convicting the world only after the resurrection of Christ (or the day of Pentecost).

 

This same word is used in 6:37 to say "All that the Father gives will come." So your point here is contradicted. The giving of v. 65 without which no one can come is also in . 37 where all who receive the giving do come. The whole passage teaches that no one can come unless given and that all who are given do come.

But again, vv. 64-65 say that Jesus statement is based on his knowledge of God giving, not on his knowledge of who would believe.

What about the OT people?? Were they not convicted of sin? If so, then your statement above is wrong. If not, then how is that "God giving all men a chance" when he doesn't convict those "unlucky" enough to be born in teh wrong dispensation?

 

Please, don't leave us in suspense any longer. What new understanding of these ancient texts have you, in your superior wisdom, come up with?

 

"Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways." (Acts 14:16)

Before the cross, God dealt almost exclusively with Israel according to the flesh. Arminians force their preconceived ideas on John 12:32, "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." In verses 20-32, it is clear that "all men" refers to both Jews and Gentiles because there were certain Greeks which came to to the feast to worship. Arminians, is it not fair that Jesus did not draw "all men" before Calvary?

 

It seems to me, from reading about the nature of Paradise, and Hades, that those who died before Christ's death were sent to Hades (see the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.) Peter attests that Christ went and preached to the spirits in Hell. They then had the chance to truly accept Christ.

And so it wasn't that they were "unlucky" at all.

 

Sameul,

There's nothing new about the words "believe" and "come to" in John 6 that I understand. It's simply my view of those words in the context of John 6 that is different. In a nut shell, I'm not convinced that anything in John 6 concerns being "lost" or "born again". Please, take that with a grain of salt.

Regardless of what I believe, I thought npetreley had some good points to those who view John 6 as he stated.

 

Can someone give me support from scripture of a 'fair' God

Romans 9:18-20
"So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?" On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God?"

This doesn't seem to illustrate a 'fair' God.
Remember folks, God does as he pleases. And it may not be 'fair'

'fairness' is something the Arminist have cooked up with their image of a giant loving fuzzball in the sky of a God.

[ January 29, 2003, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: TheTravelingMinstrel ]

 

TheTravelingMinstrel,

"Fair" is relative so it depends upon what you think is "fair" and comparing it to someone else's concept of "fair". You might say "God isn't fair" but to someone else you're saying "God isn't Just".

 

Romans chapter nine has nothing at all to do with the salvation of some and the damnation of the vast majority of human beings. The chapter points out that Jacob, as we find out more in other passages, is the lineage by which Jesus was born of the virgin. Esau is loved less, as the Greek suggests, and had lost all of the benefits of the elder son of Isaac. Esau had a lesser position in the family and overall Israelite historicity because God sovereignly ordained it His way.

 

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." (Isaiah 55:8, 9)

I suppose that God would be just if He damned every last one of us. I don't know about ya'll, but God has blessed me to see my ruined condition. When I think of God and how holy He is, it frightens me sometimes. I count it a blessing that God has let me see where I stand compared to His law. That only makes me cling more to the cross and depend on Him and His righteousness, not my own. After all, I don't have any. Total Depravity is what divides the Calvinists from the Arminians because Arminians don't understand man's fallen condition in the same way that Calvinists do.

 

Be carful to not set fair = just.

They are different things.

God's justice was satisfied by the crucificion of Jesus.
We deserved death, but recieved it not. If God was perfectly 'fair' then he would send us to hell, as we deserved.

My point is that God does as he pleases. the bushman in africa born before the time of Christ didn't get a 'chance' (if there is such a thing.) But, I however, have recieved eternal life.

Is this fair, the bushman wasn't even exposed to Jesus, and I was exposed to it since childhood.

My point is, that God may not always be fair from out perspective.

Also @ Berrian.

you say 'love less', but scriptures say 'hate', they are very different.

in this portion of scripture we are making a comparison between 'love' and 'hate', 'pharoah' and 'mosas'

Now, I ask you, does God 'hate' any beleivers or was pharoah saved?

[ January 30, 2003, 12:07 AM: Message edited by: TheTravelingMinstrel ]

 

First of all who said God had to be fair? He said to Moses in Ex 4, "Who made the deaf, the blind, and the mute?" and notice there is no apology there made by God. Why did he make me fat and someone else really athletic? I mean is it fair that they don't have all the benefits of a curvy body?

Second, when is salvation a chance and not a condition? Like we are saying that some have a chance and others don't. That is crazy. I think arminians view the calvinist line of thought like that of a natzi, sending jews to the gas chamber or to the camps. It isn't like that at all. Either God lets me do what I long to do, or he violates my will and causes me to long for him. It isn't something I do, so it isn't a chance. Some will say that is unfair, but like I said who says God has to be fair. On the other hand, I have never heard anyone say, "I wanted to be a christian, but God wouldn't let me."

 

Oh by the way, I think the bushman in Africa are more of a sect and people group, and not part of the "mankind" group.