Dispensationalism in II Tim 2:15

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

The idea that there was a separate 'paradise' in the center of the earth where Old Testament saints were held until Jesus died has very little support from scripture.

One passage used to 'prove this idea is Eph 4:9-10 which says

Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

But this is not what this verse is talking about at all. Read in context it simply says that he came to earth and died. It does not say he went to the center of the earth. He led the captive free in verse 8. Yea, I was a slave in my sin and He set me free. He did not have to go to the center of the earth to do that.

Another passage used to 'prove' this is I Pet 3:19 which says

By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

But if you read this in context you see that it was by the spirit he did this. All it is saying is that the gospel was preached in prisons. In Peter's day and ours.

Another argument for this is that Jesus told the thief on the cross he would be in paradise not heaven. Jesus is clearly referring to heaven and if he wanted to call it paradise that's fine with me.

The truth is that this 'doctrine' of a separate paradise is a Roman Catholic doctrine supported by Apocrypha that has worked its way into the theology of some Christians through the traditions of the church. It is not supported by the Bible as a whole and the only support they do have comes from taking a few brief passages out of context.

 

[psr.2]

16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18 For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

"till the seed should come"

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.

"before faith came" "kept under the law" "faith..afterwards revealed"

24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

"after faith is come..no longer under schoolmaster"

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Really very basic doctrine once we get past the "looking forward looking back" line.

 

[psr.2]

quote from tentmaker;
The idea that there was a separate 'paradise' in the center of the earth where Old Testament saints were held until Jesus died has very little support from scripture.

Not so.
Luke19 There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

Abraham, Lazarus, rich man, talking to one another from paradise to hell. Only a gulf between them.

When Saul had the witch call for Samuel(who was dead read whwt happens
7 Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and inquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
8 And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
9 And the woman said unto him, Behold, thou knowest what Saul hath done, how he hath cut off those that have familiar spirits, and the wizards, out of the land: wherefore then layest thou a snare for my life, to cause me to die?
10 And Saul sware to her by the LORD, saying, As the LORD liveth, there shall no punishment happen to thee for this thing.
11 Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel.
12 And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14 And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
"Ascending out of the earth" "to bring me up"
"whom shall I bring up"

Just a few references to support the teaching.
I might add that that is more than there are to support the looking forward looking back doctrine several of you are speaking of.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Psr.2

We have addressed every verse you have used so far and you have no scriptural support for your views. You are quick to say things like

This is so typical. People wave the banner for what they believe, amen each other on it but cannot produce scrirtureb to back it up.

And

that is the standard teaching however there is absolutely no scripture to back it up. That is the problem with someone hearing the same thing over and over again.

Yet you excuse yourself from the same standard. You are in fact violating II Tim 2:15 on a regular basis. The word dividing here is the Greek word orthotomeo. It means:

1) to cut straight, to cut straight ways

a) to proceed on straight paths, hold a straight course, equiv. to doing right

2) to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly

There is no indication here that the Bible has separate divisions but rather this passage is a warning to Timothy not to manipulate the word of God and use snipits of Scripture out of context to prove things that go against the plain word of God.

 

[psr.2]

Hey tentmaker that's a great verse in 1 Peter and I have not posted it yet but check it out in context. It is when Jesus went into paradise to preach. Note the reference back to Noah's. Hence Old Test. saints in paradise. It is such a blessing when scripture comes together and God just used you tenetmaker to remind me of that verse and just re-confirm the doctrine
18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Swaimj are you still here?

 

[psr.2]

Right and you are not cutting straight because you ignore verses that tell you that the gospel as we know it was not made known to other ages.

Yet you excuse yourself from the same standard. You are in fact violating II Tim 2:15 on a regular basis. The word dividing here is the Greek word orthotomeo. It means:

1) to cut straight, to cut straight ways
That is exactly what I am doing cutting straight

 

[psr.2]

quote from tentmakerPsr.2

We have addressed every verse you have used so far and you have no scriptural support for your views.

I beg your pardon. You sir have not addressed all the verses. If you would like I will go back through the thread and list them. I don't think it would be necessary to prove your over statement

 

[psr.2]

Tentmaker, the fact that your bible has an old test and a new test shows you that there is a division.

 

[psr.2]

) to make straight and smooth, to handle aright, to teach the truth directly and correctly

correctly is exactly what we are talking about. No amount of greek can change that.

 

[swaimj]

Hey, psr, calm down. If you'll go back and read my post I THINK I was agreeing with you! You said

Abrahams faith which was counted to him for righteousness was not faith in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

I agree. Abraham did not have specific knowledge of the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. My point is that Abraham believed God and the specific promises made to him but he did not know of Christ's work on the cross.

As to II Tim 2:15, my point is that that verse is not specifically telling us to divide scripture into dispensations just because the word "divide" appears in some of the translations.

And you really do not need to ask me if I'm still here. Been here since June of 2000 & plan to stick around. I'll answer you when I get a chance!

 

[Dr. Bob]

psr.2 - Are you a baptist or an oharite/bullingerist? Just curious, as most of that ilk would NOT be happy being called "baptist" here in the states.

Salvation is 100% God's "grace" alone. The mechanism that HE gives man to repent and accept that grace is called "faith".

Adam and Noah and Moses and David and Elisha and John and Tony and Bob are all saved by that same wonderful gift of God called "faith".

Scripture? "Without faith it is impossible . . ." or "For by grace are you saved through faith . . " and a gajillion others.

As an historic dispensationalist I believe God has given men different responsibilities and even different revelation of His will in various ages.

But the plan of salvation by "faith" has not changed. Ever. Nor will it. Ever.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Intersting, the only place Google can
find "bullingerist" is a post by Brother
Dr. Bob at this topic:

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/3/2278.html

But i just want e-mail when folk talk
to this topic as i am boycotting it
(i.e. i'll read but not post).

2 Timothy 2:15 (NLT = The New Living Translation)

Work hard so God can approve you.
Be a good worker, one who does not
need to be ashamed
and who correctly explains the word of truth.

2 Timothy 2:15 (HCSB = The Holman Christian Standard Bible)

Be diligent to present yourself
approved to God, a worker who doesn't
need to be ashamed,
correctly teaching the word of truth.

 

[psr.2]

Swaimj , just checking. I was afraid the only person with a similar view on this disappeared.

 

[psr.2]

Dr Bob, to answer your post.
I am a bible believer first and a baptist second.

Your statement concerning salvation and faith has been stated and re-stated here already.

What we are discussing are details of divisions in scripture.

Many baptist repeat the chant" Saved in O.T. just like N.T.
O.T. looking back to calvary N.T. looking Back to calvary.

While it sounds nice it's not scriptual.

As I said noone ever went to heaven except through the finished work of calvary.

However Old Test. saints were "kept" in paradise until that time based on their obedience to the law and sacrifices.

The New Testament as we know did not actually go into affect until Jesus Christ had been crucified was buried and rose.

That is why the temple veil was torn in half. That set-up was over. We now had a high priest in Jesus Christ who had made an atonement once for all.

All of this has been posted already. Many people believe this but as soon as they hear it they flip out and start in with the chant "looking forward looking back"

Well it's not that simple.

Much the same as in the trib and Millenium we will see the law re-instated including the observance of the Sabbath.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ."

Shadow of things to come. Back under the O.T. set up after the rapture.

Thanks again folks for all the wonderful feedback

 

[psr.2]

quote from Dr. Bob
But the plan of salvation by "faith" has not changed. Ever. Nor will it. Ever.

Now if someone did not know the gospel as we know it they certainly could not have trusted it by faith right?

Eph. 3:3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

[Craigbythesea]

Psr.2 wrote,

You cannot explain this away with any of the verses you quoted.

Eph. 3:3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

In other ages was not known? What does that mean to you? If they did not know how could they have been saved like we are?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Salvation through faith in Christ was not “the mystery.” “The mystery was that the Gentiles were to be “fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel. . . .” The Jews had always believed that the Gentiles were excluded from the promise to Abraham. Paul revealed that the Gentiles were included in the promise to Abraham.

Eph. 3:1. For this reason I, Paul, the prisoner of Christ Jesus for the sake of you Gentiles—
2. if indeed you have heard of the stewardship of God's grace which was given to me for you;
3. that by revelation there was made known to me the mystery, as I wrote before in brief.
4. By referring to this, when you read you can understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5. which in other generations was not made known to the sons of men, as it has now been revealed to His holy apostles and prophets in the Spirit;
6. to be specific, that the Gentiles are fellow heirs and fellow members of the body, and fellow partakers of the promise in Christ Jesus through the gospel,
7. of which I was made a minister, according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me according to the working of His power. (NASB, 1995)

 

[Craigbythesea]

Some ultra dispensationalists have used this verse to support their doctrine that God's plan of salvation has changed over the course of time, that the word of God is divided into different dispensations. Their basic theory is that God saved men differently at different times. For example they believe that Jews of the Old Testament were saved by keeping the law (some believe that Jews today can be saved the same way).

This post is an excellent illustration of how dispensationalism confuses the simple message of the Gospel. The Bible teaches that there are TWO COVENANTS—the COVENANT OF LAW and the COVENANT OF GRACE. WE find this teaching as early in the Bible as Gen. 2:9,

“Out of the ground the LORD God caused to grow every tree that is pleasing to the sight and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.” (NASB, 1995)

The tree of life = GRACE
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil = LAW

And we find it again in Gen. 16:1,

“Now Sarai, Abram's wife had borne him no children, and she had an Egyptian maid whose name was Hagar.” (NASB, 1995)

And in Gal. 4:22-29 we find that Paul specifically tells us that Sarah and Hagar represent the covenants of GRACE and LAW respectively,

22. For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the bondwoman and one by the free woman.
23. But the son by the bondwoman was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through the promise.
24. This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar.
25. Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children.
26. But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.
27. For it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE NUMEROUS ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND."
28. And you brethren, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29. But as at that time he who was born according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, so it is now also. (NASB, 1995)

Indeed, even the terms “Old Testament” and “New Testament” refer to the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. The same Greek word, diathēkē, is translated in the KJV as both “covenant” and “testament.” Hence, the Old Testament is the book of the Old Covenant; the New Testament is the book of the New Covenant.

Darby, Larkin, Scofield, etc., suffered from an over-active imagination and have led countless thousands into the sea of confusion.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Psr.2, you said

You sir have not addressed all the verses. If you would like I will go back through the thread and list them. I don't think it would be necessary to prove your over statement

After a careful review I find that you are correct. There were some verses you used that I did not address. Of course they do nothing to prove your point. Allow me to list them for you. Starting at the beginning of this thread you used the following verses:

Romans 16:25-26 - I addressed this, it does not support your dispensational theory and the mystery has nothing to do with the gospel but instead refers to the Gentile age.

I Cor 2:7-8 - I addressed this, has nothing to do with your theory.

Eph 1:9-10 - I addressed this, it actually says the opposite of what you propose.

Eph 3:3-6 - I addressed this, again we find the Bible and you are saying direct opposite things.

You then quoted Luke 24:9-11 - I had not addressed this verse. Of course it has nothing to do with our discussion. I do not argue that these women and others did not understand all the details of the Lord's death and resurrection. But neither do a lot of people saved today. I did not address it because of its complete irrelevance.

You quoted James 2:21 and 23. - I had not addressed these. If you took verse 21 out of context it could seem to say that Abraham was justified by works but a full understanding of James and especially verse 23 shows us that is not the case, he was justified by faith JUST LIKE WE ARE. Again we see verses in the Bible that say the opposite of what you are saying.

II Tim 2:15 - I addressed this, there is no reference here to scripture being divided only instruction to be honest in our interpretation and communication of it. We obviously disagree on each others compliance with this command.

I Cor 2:7-8 - you repeat this but it had been dealt with previously.

Eph 1:9-10 - you repeat this but it had been dealt with previously.

Eph 3:3-6 - you repeat this but it had been dealt with previously.

Gal 3:16-28 - You must have posted this while I was compiling my response. I had not addressed these verses. This is Paul's argument against those who taught that Christians must keep the law. The argument is basically, "How can the law be a requirement when it came 430 years after Abraham? If Abraham did not have to keep the law why should we?" Verse 17 confirms that the covenant was made 'in Christ' (Abraham's salvation was in Christ). The statement 'till the seed shall come' in verse 19 shows that the law is passed away. Look at verse 22, all those who were kept under sin were given the promise by faith in Jesus Christ. Verse 24 says the law brought us to Christ. Again here we have the clear word of God saying the opposite of what you are suggesting.

Now you used Luke 16:19-29 and I Sam 28:7-15 to try and prove the idea of a paradise in the center of the earth. This again must have been posted while I was writing my response. Again your on really shaky ground here. I am not saying that your idea of paradise is false. I cannot prove that. What I am saying is that it is not supported by scripture. You are using a parable and the vision of a witch and building a doctrine around it. I don't believe tat qualifies as scriptural evidence. How much of the story of Lazarus and the rich man is symbolic and how much is literal. I am not willing to take the suggestion that they could see each other and build a doctrine around it. As far as the witch of endor seeing spirits come out of the ground. I am not willing to build doctrine around her vision either.

Those are all the verses used before my post. I am glad you enjoyed I Peter 3:18-20, of course they do not support your ideas. I am sure we disagree on this.

Hey, I think your wrong here but I have enjoyed the spirited debate.

 

[psr.2]

quote from craig;
This post is an excellent illustration of how dispensationalism confuses the simple message of the Gospel. The Bible teaches that there are TWO COVENANTS—the COVENANT OF LAW and the COVENANT OF GRACE. WE find this teaching as early in the Bible as Gen. 2:9,

Your post is an excellent illustration of how people who cling to tradition rather than what saith the scriptures cannot explain a simple verse.
You mentioned the two testaments- old and new. Well did you ever read the verse in Hebrews that says;
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

Now please read carefully believing every word of God.
:13 the blood of bulls and goats did sanctify and purify the flesh
:14 The blood of Christ can even cleanse the conscience
:15 Christ is the mediator of the NEW test,..BY DEATH...that those who were under the FIRST test...might receive the promise of eternal inheritance
:16-17 the testament is of no strength before the death of the testator, which is Christ
:18 the first test. was not dedicated without blood
:19 Moses took the blood of calves and goats and sprinkled the book and people
:20 Moses said this is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined to you

Now stay with me I know the chant "without shedding of blood...Blood of bulls and goats can't wash away sin"
But read with me verses 21-22
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
The blood that the scripture is referring to is the blood of animals (calves and goats) see above.

 

[psr.2]

Tentmaker now we have something to go by. Thank you for your effort in the last post.
quote
Romans 16:25-26 - I addressed this, it does not support your dispensational theory and the mystery has nothing to do with the gospel but instead refers to the Gentile age.

1. Paul says "my gospel"
If you will do a word search in the scriptures you will find that there are multiple gospels.
Pauls gospel is unique. You never hear Paul say he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
The mystery kept secret since the world began was this gospel.
Even the disciple walking with Christ his entire ministry did not understand the gospel as we know it. They were law abiding sabbath keeping pork abstaining Jews and that was counted to them for righteousness.

Read Luke 24 pay strict attention to verse 44-45
44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Then and not before then. If they understood the New Test they would have forsaken the Old but the new was not in affect yet.
I'll post this then I will address the rest of your post shortly. I have given you plenty to chew on if you will read it with an open mind.