I don't know if this is in the right forum or not, but due to my ignorance, what is the basis/beliefs of dispinsationalism? Your thoughts and comments are truly appreciated.
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Dispinsationalism
- Thread starter Pastor Timothy
- Start date
Here is a brief article on dispensationalism that includes charts, links, and a short bibliography, which may serve as a brief introduction.
Personal thoughts on dispensationalism
You get over 120,000 webpages when you enter "dispensationalism" in the Google search engine. Several study Bibles have notes sprinkling dispensational doctrine throughout the scriptures. The most famous is the Oxford Scofield Reference Bible. I have purchased three Scofields over the years--but I no longer subscribe to all of the doctrines of dispensationalism.
When you begin to study dispensationalism, you may recognize many of the doctrines. Some can be supported directly by scripture; while other dispensational doctrines require the individual to connect a series of dots. At times, the doctrines of any theology can be similar to trying to find constellations in the stars of the night sky--the bright stars (major doctrines) are easy to see, while the dim stars (minor doctrines) have less magnitude and require the assistance of binoculars, telescopes, or observing locations away from light pollution.
You may also find you already believe some of the doctrines associated with dispensationalism, but had no idea theologians have affixed your doctrines in their writings on dispensational theology.
Sometimes, dispensationalism offers comfort to those seeking structure in their faith. Some dispensationalists are quite logical in their thinking. But, you cannot place God in a logical box or on a measured timeline; much less move the box and time periods around as political, economic, and world events unfold. However, many Christians find comfort in the doctrines associated with dispensationalism.
I may have misrepresented dispensationalism in the above paragraphs. I apologize if I have offended anyone's faith or doctrine.
...Bob
Personal thoughts on dispensationalism
You get over 120,000 webpages when you enter "dispensationalism" in the Google search engine. Several study Bibles have notes sprinkling dispensational doctrine throughout the scriptures. The most famous is the Oxford Scofield Reference Bible. I have purchased three Scofields over the years--but I no longer subscribe to all of the doctrines of dispensationalism.
When you begin to study dispensationalism, you may recognize many of the doctrines. Some can be supported directly by scripture; while other dispensational doctrines require the individual to connect a series of dots. At times, the doctrines of any theology can be similar to trying to find constellations in the stars of the night sky--the bright stars (major doctrines) are easy to see, while the dim stars (minor doctrines) have less magnitude and require the assistance of binoculars, telescopes, or observing locations away from light pollution.
You may also find you already believe some of the doctrines associated with dispensationalism, but had no idea theologians have affixed your doctrines in their writings on dispensational theology.
Sometimes, dispensationalism offers comfort to those seeking structure in their faith. Some dispensationalists are quite logical in their thinking. But, you cannot place God in a logical box or on a measured timeline; much less move the box and time periods around as political, economic, and world events unfold. However, many Christians find comfort in the doctrines associated with dispensationalism.
I may have misrepresented dispensationalism in the above paragraphs. I apologize if I have offended anyone's faith or doctrine.
...Bob
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Fred's Wife
Member
Did you forget to add the link?
Nevermind....I guess you edited after I posted
Here's another link which explains dispensationalism...it's in PDF format and has 13 chapters:
http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/dispensa/dispens.htm
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stilllearning
Active Member
Hello Pastor Timothy and welcome.
I am also ignorant about many things, but I am learning more & more every day.
BobinKy did a pretty good job of explaining this subject.
When Bob said.......
This seemed to best describe my situation.
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As a student of the Bible, while not being influenced by “ANYBODY”, I developed some clear doctrinal beliefs; Then later when I learned about Calvinism & Arminianism, I realized that I didn’t agree with either.
Then later, as I continued to study, I realized, that I was a dispensationalist, because they had discovered the same things in the Bible that I had.
For me, the clearest Bible doctrine, that identifies me as a dispensationalist, is what I do with the Jews.
The Bible clearly teaches, that the Jewish nation will forever be God’s people, and so far, every person that I have ever come across that rejects dispensationalism, also rejects this doctrine.
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I feel, that like Calvinism & Arminianism, too many Christians, are allowing “man’s ideas” to determine their doctrinal identity.
Instead of first, going to the Bible for the truth, then finding doctrinal descriptions that agree with that truth.
I am also ignorant about many things, but I am learning more & more every day.
BobinKy did a pretty good job of explaining this subject.
When Bob said.......
This seemed to best describe my situation.
--------------------------------------------------
As a student of the Bible, while not being influenced by “ANYBODY”, I developed some clear doctrinal beliefs; Then later when I learned about Calvinism & Arminianism, I realized that I didn’t agree with either.
Then later, as I continued to study, I realized, that I was a dispensationalist, because they had discovered the same things in the Bible that I had.
For me, the clearest Bible doctrine, that identifies me as a dispensationalist, is what I do with the Jews.
The Bible clearly teaches, that the Jewish nation will forever be God’s people, and so far, every person that I have ever come across that rejects dispensationalism, also rejects this doctrine.
--------------------------------------------------
I feel, that like Calvinism & Arminianism, too many Christians, are allowing “man’s ideas” to determine their doctrinal identity.
Instead of first, going to the Bible for the truth, then finding doctrinal descriptions that agree with that truth.
I offer my thoughts and comments:
What began as Premillennial Dispensationalism several decades ago, has now, for the most part, morphed into Christian Zionism, which is hardly distinguishable from Jewish Zionism. Estimates of the numbers of Christian Zionists here in the states range as high as 65 million, and their political clout is considerable, for instance, in the areas of U.S. Foreign Policy:
http://kevinmacdonald.net/M&WReview.pdf
and neo-conservatism:
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/US-Israel/bushjews.html
http://www.kevinmacdonald.net/HeilbrunnReview-final.pdf
The Christian Zionists believe:
“There are two distinct and parallel covenants in the Bible, one with Israel that is never revoked and the other with the Church that is superseded by the covenant with Israel. The Church is a “mere parenthesis” in God’s plan, and as such it will be removed from history during the Rapture (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 and 5:1-11). At that point, Israel, as a nation, will be restored as the primary instrument of God on earth. Christian Zionists claim that Genesis 12:3 (“I will bless those who bless you and curse those who curse you”) should be interpreted literally and lead to political, economic, moral and spiritual support for the state of Israel and for the Jewish people in general.”
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4930.htm
The 'hyper' Christian Zionists believe that “what Israel wants God wants, and every act taken by Israel is orchestrated by God, and should be condoned, supported, and even praised”. They believe that harnessing the wealth and power of the United States in the service of Israel is crucial to America's survival, i.e. in order to be blessed and not cursed [Gen 12:3].
In short, Premillennial Dispensationalism, has, for the most part, become 'The Israel Cult'. They believe the Church of Christ is temporary, a “mere parenthesis”, and the nation of Israel takes front stage in their theology.
stilllearning
Active Member
Good morning kyredneck
Thank you for your post.
Although the Bible teaches that God’s covenant with Israel, is open-ended, this does not lead me to support the state of Israel and the Jewish people, in an open-ended way.
Even though they are God’s people, right now they are in rebellion to God, for rejecting His Son.
I am familiar with “Christian Zionism”, and do not support it.
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As for the Church, being removed from history after the Rapture:
Actually the Church will only be removed from the Earth, during the 70th week of Daniel.
But will officially return to the new earth, in about 1,007 years.
Although I personally believe, that being the Bride of Christ, will mean that we, as individual Christians, will be free to visit this earth, during the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ.
I plan to do some traveling then. There are a lot of interesting places, that I would like to visit.
“See your travel agent now, by being born again!”
Thank you for your post.
Although the Bible teaches that God’s covenant with Israel, is open-ended, this does not lead me to support the state of Israel and the Jewish people, in an open-ended way.
Even though they are God’s people, right now they are in rebellion to God, for rejecting His Son.
I am familiar with “Christian Zionism”, and do not support it.
--------------------------------------------------
As for the Church, being removed from history after the Rapture:
Actually the Church will only be removed from the Earth, during the 70th week of Daniel.
But will officially return to the new earth, in about 1,007 years.
Although I personally believe, that being the Bride of Christ, will mean that we, as individual Christians, will be free to visit this earth, during the 1000 year millennial reign of Christ.
I plan to do some traveling then. There are a lot of interesting places, that I would like to visit.
“See your travel agent now, by being born again!”
Here is a link to an article on the topic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dispensationalism
Greetings kyredneck,
And I offer my thoughts and comments:
Both Israel and the Church are (or were in the case of Israel) earthly manifestations of the kingdom of God on earth.
There is Redeemed Israel and the Church of the Firstborn which will exist into eternity in fulfilment of the Abrahamic Covenant of the blessings both to his seed as well as all nations (goyim).
Genesis 26:4 And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;
The fulfillment of which is found in the imagery of Revelation 21, the New Jerusalem with twelve gates and twelve foundations.
10 And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
11 Having the glory of God: and her light was like unto a stone most precious, even like a jasper stone, clear as crystal;
12 And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates.
14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
As to Israel as a contemporary nation among the modern nations of the world, IMO, they have no free "get out of jail" card.
Modern Israel came about about through the actions of the US and Great Britain and that is why we are strong allies.
FWIW, I believe that God is not yet through with Israel and has many promises to fulfill for them during the Millenium.
This is not a "Zionism" which has to do with contemporary modern Israel.
The bottom line of the moderate school of dispensational thought (radical zionism excepted) is the distinction between Israel and the Church and not the ascendancy or preeminence of one over the other.
This concept of their distinction is in opposition to Replacement Theology which, for the most part, says the Church is "spiritual" Israel and the promises to Israel have been "spiritualized" and transferred to the Church.
HankD
The above illustrates well that it would be better if people would quote from someone who actually holds to doctrine rather than others opinions about what others believe
Pre-mil is what the church held as their orthodox view for the first 400+ years of church history. The term dispensationalism' is based on a biblical hermeneutic that sees a series of chronologically successive "dispensations" or periods in history in which God relates to human beings in different ways.
One can be pre-mil and not dispensational however one can not be dispensational and not be pre-mil. The main or prominent Dispensational theology is founded in and from the theological view of Pre-millennialism though it branches off it slightly in relation to when the coming of Christ is (pre, mid, post).
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"A dispensation is a period of time during which man is tested in respect of obedience to some specific revelation of the will of God.
These periods are marked off in Scripture by some change in God’s method of dealing with mankind, or a portion of mankind, in respect of the two questions of sin and of man’s responsibility. Each of the dispensations may be regarded as a new test of the natural man, and each ends in judgment—marking his utter failure."
Scofield, C. I., Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth. Zondervan, 1965. p. 19.
“[A] dispensationalist is simply one who recognizes that God deals differently with people in different ages or economies.”
Enns, Peter, The Moody Handbook of Theology. Moody Press, 1997. p. 520.
In its most basic understanding there are five different periods, economies or dispensations:
(1) Man prior to the fall (often called innocence);
(2) Man fallen;
(3) Man under the law;
(4) Man after Christ’s death and resurrection and
(5) Man redeemed, ruling with Christ.
With this understanding I think most believers could be called dispensationalists (that should wrinkle a few brows) but there are some other basic principles dispensationalists follow:
Charles Ryrie lists three essential principles further defining dispensationalism:
(1) A consistent distinction between Israel and the Church
(2) The use of a literal hermeneutic in interpreting the bible and
(3) An understanding that the God’s purpose relates to His glory (rather than the salvation of mankind).
(Ryrie, Charles C., Dispensationalism, (Chicago: Moody Press, 1995) p. 45.)
Hope this helps :wavey:
Rob
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I truly want to thank you all for your responses in regards to my question about Dispensationalism. Your comments are truly to be considered in my eagerness to learn of this. God bless you all.
Enrapturing story
Be sure to research John N Darby if you truly want to understand dispensationalism (Margaret McDonald's story is well worth the reading also). While John turns the bible into a Grim's Fairy Tale it is fascinating reading to understand how the characters associated with premil dispensationalism created the rapture theory, and the modern day understanding of the Anti-christ, the millennial period, battle of Armageddon etc., etc.
Most people who understand premil dispensationalism's beginning don't buy into it, but it is still enrapturing reading. Sit back with a tub of pop corn and prepare to be enraptured.
“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel
Why thank you Mel!
Be sure to research John N Darby if you truly want to understand dispensationalism (Margaret McDonald's story is well worth the reading also). While John turns the bible into a Grim's Fairy Tale it is fascinating reading to understand how the characters associated with premil dispensationalism created the rapture theory, and the modern day understanding of the Anti-christ, the millennial period, battle of Armageddon etc., etc.
Most people who understand premil dispensationalism's beginning don't buy into it, but it is still enrapturing reading. Sit back with a tub of pop corn and prepare to be enraptured.
“Your understanding of the inspiration of Scripture is utterly astounding!” Mel
Why thank you Mel!
*sigh.. why is it that people don't do much study on the facts but simply regurgitate false claims?
John Dardy did not come up with dispensationalism any more than Augustine came up with the view for preteristic theology. They were people merely poster boys for the view which helped to make it more acceptable and popular. The dispensational view goes back much farther with others holding to it or aspects of it much earlier than John Darby.
the view goes back up to 250+ years earlier than before John Darbies birth. Here are some examples of those who held and proclaimed a pre-trib view BEFORE 1830 (other than John Darby 1800-1882)
Joseph Mede (1586-1638);
Edward Bickersteth (1786-1850);
James H. Frere (1779-1866);
William Cuninghame (1775-1849); among various others.
So please stop the incorrect and false matra that Darby started the whole pre-trib dispensationalism doctrine when it in fact was around long before Darby even considered to be applicable. While I agree he popularize it and even tweaked it somewhat to his own view, he did not come up with it the core view and essence of it.
Just like there are various types of Covenant theology, so it is with Dispensational Theology.
However, what IS funny about your above post is that "the modern day understanding of the Anti-christ, the millennial period, battle of Armageddon etc." are some of the primary views of the Pre-mil view that was the original and orthodox view of the church for the first 400+ years of the Church.
So much for fairy tales.
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Jarthur001
Active Member
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Jarthur001
Active Member
Good Morning to you TS,
Could you briefly show from scripture what you mean by “ God’s covenant with Israel, is open-ended”, a covenant that we are plainly told has been abolished, done away in Christ?
Can you reconcile that statement with scripture?:
4 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect: Ro 4
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed. Ro 9
18 For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no more of promise: but God hath granted it to Abraham by promise. Gal 3
3 for we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God, and glory in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh: Phil 3
Is this speculation or is there scripture that shows it to be so?
Sounds nice.
James.. You make my case EXACTLY..
And as you prove, your covenant gurus are making false claims and ignoring the fact that Dardy wasn't the originator. You even show that very fact with quoting William Cuninghame who was before Darby.. LOL
Secondly.. in order to be dispensational one does not have to hold to pre-tribulational rapture.. ANYONE who does a 10 minute study on this would know that and you, I would have presumed, would have had 'at least' that much knowledge.
6 themes of the Premil view that are also the core of the dispensational view - are as follows:
1. The anti-christ (a person) would both arise and reign
2. Christ's return physically to earth and the overthrow of the anti-christ.
3. Christ establishing His physical Kingdom on the earth.
4. He would reign from Jerusalem both over and with His saints of all ages.
5. His reign would last a literal 1000 years.
6. There were 2 distinct resurrections. That of the saints before the 1000 year reign and the general - those who would be raised up for Judgment.
However, if you wish to boil it down to one sentence (so to speak) I agree with Ryrie and MacAuthur but will quote JM here:
"Now, what is a proper dispensational viewpoint? I’ll put it to you very simply. The whole of my dispensationalism can be stated in one sentence: it is a distinction between the Church and Israel. Period. That is it. That’s really all you need..."
Thus the view is NOT defined by when the rapture takes place but the distinction between the Church and Israel.
And as you prove, your covenant gurus are making false claims and ignoring the fact that Dardy wasn't the originator. You even show that very fact with quoting William Cuninghame who was before Darby.. LOL
Secondly.. in order to be dispensational one does not have to hold to pre-tribulational rapture.. ANYONE who does a 10 minute study on this would know that and you, I would have presumed, would have had 'at least' that much knowledge.
6 themes of the Premil view that are also the core of the dispensational view - are as follows:
1. The anti-christ (a person) would both arise and reign
2. Christ's return physically to earth and the overthrow of the anti-christ.
3. Christ establishing His physical Kingdom on the earth.
4. He would reign from Jerusalem both over and with His saints of all ages.
5. His reign would last a literal 1000 years.
6. There were 2 distinct resurrections. That of the saints before the 1000 year reign and the general - those who would be raised up for Judgment.
However, if you wish to boil it down to one sentence (so to speak) I agree with Ryrie and MacAuthur but will quote JM here:
"Now, what is a proper dispensational viewpoint? I’ll put it to you very simply. The whole of my dispensationalism can be stated in one sentence: it is a distinction between the Church and Israel. Period. That is it. That’s really all you need..."
Thus the view is NOT defined by when the rapture takes place but the distinction between the Church and Israel.