Divorce and its relationship to Godly living!

[Eliyahu]

So, are you saying to pastor a church is not the same as overseeing a church? Therefore no qualifications are required because only elders and deacons are mentioned? or is a pastor just simply the teacher?

If a pastor is nothing more than a teacher than anyone can do it if called?

You are quite far away to understand what I posted, because you have been educated for the clergy system for a long time. I don't expect you can undserstand the truth of church so easily.

Do you read Stephen who was a Deacon who preached the Gospel to the Jewish leaders, in Acts 7?
Do you think only Pastors can preach the Gospels?
What about Philip the deacon who preached the Gospel in Acts 8?

Then do you know that the elders preached the gospel as well?

Where are the pastors in the Bible ? Show me! I told you Ephesians 4:11 is the wrong translation from Poimenas ( Sheperds).

I am very sure you will not understand what I am saying. That's why I recommended you to read the article in PB sites.
There is no office of Pastor, it is only the gift or talent.
Among the Elders there can be a pastor, Among the deacons, there can be a Pastor, there can be a pastor among the believers. There can be many believers in a church who are talented as a pastor.
Nobody was called with title of Pastor in the Bible.
Peter callled himself as an elder. Paul called Peter, timothy, Titus as Brother. Anania called Paul Brother. If anyone is an elder, people can call him a Brother who is working as an elder. In normal occasions, we call such person only as Brother. Why? Jesus commanded us to do so ( Mat 23:8-11). You cannot see the truth of church organization and the truth of Church offices until you come down from the lofty and arrogant position.
"Ye are all Brethren" (Mt 23:8) You can confess either " I am a brother" or " I am not a believer"
Even Jesus was not ashamed of calling us as brethren ( Heb 2:11) I believe this means that Jesus Himself is not ashamed of being called a Brother as well. But there are many people ( clergy people or ordained people) who are ashamed of being called Brother.
It is good that we don't have such people at all in our church and in other PB churches.


You must know that if any qualification is not mentioned about any office, then that office cannot be superior to the office which requires a certain qualifications mentioned in the Bible. Where is the Pastor mentioned and what is the qualification for it?

If you know the church truth you will have to conduct the funeral ceremony of your theology.

 

[Rev. Lowery]

I was asking a question of you I understand your position and I agree with it!

What I am trying to show ppl is that preaching/pastoring/teaching its all the same we are all Brethren in Christ and ppl shouldn't tell ppl, "Oh you cant do such and such." Because of, "Such and Such"

I was being sarcastic in the post where I asked the question of you!

You see I feel as you do but I live in a country were divorce is considered a stumbling block to a Godly life and I simply am looking for ways to dispel this!

In particular ppl in my part of the world feel that if a man has been divorced he cant preach, teach, or minister period regardless of who is at fault or when it took place!

 

[Eliyahu]

I was asking a question of you I understand your position and I agree with it!

What I am trying to show ppl is that preaching/pastoring/teaching its all the same we are all Brethren in Christ and ppl shouldn't tell ppl, "Oh you cant do such and such." Because of, "Such and Such"

I was being sarcastic in the post where I asked the question of you!

You see I feel as you do but I live in a country were divorce is considered a stumbling block to a Godly life and I simply am looking for ways to dispel this!

In particular ppl in my part of the world feel that if a man has been divorced he cant preach, teach, or minister period regardless of who is at fault or when it took place!

OK,
As I said above, there are so many situations where the universal rule cannot apply to, even though Bible is quite strict against Divorce.
It doesn't mean that every case can be settled so simply or easily. You may have to be in agony with those people related in your church. Even though we should avoid any lustful divorces, there can be always some sort of necessity for divorce, and if it is the event of the past especially, those wounds should be healed, instead of being bitten again, because no one can be perfect, and we should encourage each other for the recovery and healing.
After the elapse of a certain period for healing and recovery since the person accepted the Lord, why should he be excluded from the opportunities to serve the Lord as a deacon or an Elder ( or so-called a Pastor if it be a teaching elder) ? In general such can be allowed after the elapse of a proven testimony period. The whole theme of the discussion is to find out the best solution and understanding for the blessings of the believers and for the glory of God thru Jesus Christ.

 

[RockRambler]

"What God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."


IMO, that is the bigger question: Are marriage vows made by 2 unsaved people, a marriage put together by God? There are a lot of marriages that I think God gets blamed for that he shouldn't.

 

[Eliyahu]

"What God hath joined together, let not man put asunder."

IMO, that is the bigger question: Are marriage vows made by 2 unsaved people, a marriage put together by God? There are a lot of marriages that I think God gets blamed for that he shouldn't.

You are right too.
People caused the problems( marriage) without consulting with God, and continue to create another problem by divorce, then ask God to resolve the problems. But the mercy of God is there, even though they may be late in realizing the problems.

 

[bmerr]

And Eliyahu I am an ordained christian minister so Pastor would be an acceptable title instead of Rev. but thats what the denomination that ordained me gave me as a title!

Mr. Lowery,

bmerr here. A bit of a subject change here, but where do the Scriptures authorize "ordaining" ministers or denominations?

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Mr. Lowery,

bmerr here. A bit of a subject change here, but where do the Scriptures authorize "ordaining" ministers or denominations?

In Christ,

bmerr

Not speaking for Rev Lowery, but I have at least 3 references that doesn't use the word 'ordain', but the idea is certainly there.

Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust. (Acts 14:23)​

Do not neglect your gift, which was given you through a prophetic message when the body of elders laid their hands on you.(1 Timothy 4:14)​

The reason I left you in Crete was that you might straighten out what was left unfinished and appoint elders in every town, as I directed you.(Titus 1:5)​

 

[Eliyahu]

We must remember that the early church didn't ordain a new group of persons or new people, or that then they become qualified elders or deacons.
According to the requirements of 1 Timothy 3:1-7, they selected the elders qualifed according to the Bible teachings, then ordained them following the guidance of Holy Spirit, which is far, far different from today's system which ordains the graduates from colleges of theology. I have never heard that any graduates from College of Theology are ordained after their actual lives are checked and proven according to 1 Tim 3:1-7 for the elders or teaching elders, and 3:8-13 for the deacons. Ordaining was done after such qualification process was completed.

 

[bmerr]

bmerr here. The way I understand it, the rite of "ordination" is a hold over from the Roman Catholics. I think there were a number of rites or ceremonies (baptism, marriage, ordination, etc) that could only be performed by a RC priest. There were also some for which one needed an RC bishop. I forget what they all were.

Anyway, it all was a part of the system of control the RCC held over the common man, keeping him in submission to the Pope, and in ignorance of the Bible, which still continues to this day.

My point in bringing it up was that the Bible does not speak of "ordination" as related to preaching the word, or even serving as a paid preacher. That was all man's idea.

We are all prone to going along with things since that's how they've always been done. We must return to the Scriptures to learn what God requires of us.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Agnus_Dei]

Anyway, it all was a part of the system of control the RCC held over the common man, keeping him in submission to the Pope, and in ignorance of the Bible, which still continues to this day.

bmerr: not to derail this thread, b/c what I’m about to ask will put this thread into such a tail spin that no ace pilot could recover from. So feel free to pm me your answer.

I understand that you are a recovering Baptist, well so am I and your journey has led you to the Churches of Christ and I’m still on my journey, but am leaning more towards Orthodoxy.

You mention the RCC keeping people in submission, so when Christ commissioned Peter and the Apostles the authority to bind and loose, what was Jesus giving them the authority to do?


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[bmerr]

...we are all Brethren in Christ and ppl shouldn't tell ppl, "Oh you cant do such and such." Because of, "Such and Such"

Mr. Lowery,

bmerr here. You know, when I was a Baptist, I always thought it was strange that only the "pastor" was allowed to baptize people, especially since there was so little importance placed on baptism. I mean, if it's not necessary to do it at all, why does it matter who does it?

...I live in a country were divorce is considered a stumbling block to a Godly life and I simply am looking for ways to dispel this!

In particular ppl in my part of the world feel that if a man has been divorced he cant preach, teach, or minister period regardless of who is at fault or when it took place!

In this I believe you might have some ground to gain. I may have misunderstood what you were asking earlier.

First off, having a divorce in one's past does not hinder one from living a godly life any more than having any other sin in one's past. I believe that is the key: the sin must be in one's past. If a person is in an adulterous relationship due to an unscriptural divorce, then the sin of adultery is not in his past, but in his present.

Being divorced would not even disqualify one from preaching/teaching the gospel, provided it was a scriptural divorce, or the person had repented of an adulterous relationship.

Being unscripturally divorced (irreconcilable differences, etc) and remarried would mean that the man would be the husband of more than one wife, since the first marriage covenant would still be binding in God's eyes.

In this case, the man would be an adulterer, and should not even be allowed fellowship with the faithful, let alone into the pulpit, until and unless he repented of the adultery.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[RockRambler]

But is the first marriage a scriptural marriage, put together by God, if the couple had not accepted Jesus as their savior at the time of the marriage? Are vows to God by a non-believer binding?

 

[Agnus_Dei]

You know, when I was a Baptist, I always thought it was strange that only the "pastor" was allowed to baptize people...

Did you know that according to the RCC, I can baptize anyone, as long as there’s ‘water’ and it’s done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Even a person that’s not been baptized can baptize someone…imagine that…

...especially since there was so little importance placed on baptism. I mean, if it's not necessary to do it at all, why does it matter who does it?

To add to your comment, as I was a Baptist I never understood why, when we took communion the preacher would go on and on about not taking communion if one wasn’t ‘scripturally’ baptized.

Here’s what’s funny though…a person walks the aisle, repeats a prayer and is ‘saved’, yet he can’t take communion, until he’s been baptized, yet baptism is only a symbol and so is the Lords Supper.


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[bmerr]

But is the first marriage a scriptural marriage, put together by God, if the couple had not accepted Jesus as their savior at the time of the marriage? Are vows to God by a non-believer binding?

RockRambler,

bmerr here. Matt 19:9 says "Whosoever", just like John 3:16, but no one thinks John 3:16 is only for Christians.

The principle is laid out in Ecc 5:5, "Better is it that thou shouldest not vow, than that thou shouldest vow and not pay."

I think what has facilitated so many people getting jammed up in unscriputural relationships through divorce and remarriage is the fact that so many religious groups have neglected the Bible's teaching on the subject.

Even my old "pastor" at the Baptist church was in violation of Matt 19:9, so it's no suprise that he never preached on it in the four years I was there. The one time he was called on it, he said that his first marriage had been "annulled", but I can't find anything in the Bible that would authorize that.

Amos 8:11 and Hos 4:6 come to mind...

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[bmerr]

Here’s what’s funny though…a person walks the aisle, repeats a prayer and is ‘saved’, yet he can’t take communion, until he’s been baptized, yet baptism is only a symbol and so is the Lords Supper.-

Agnus,

bmerr here. The inconsistencies of the traditions of men...

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Rev. Lowery]

bmerr

bmerr you know what your talking about and I agree!

But, how do we get ppl to see that !

How do I explain to ppl the simple truths of Gods word with them trying to add there own theology and experience to it? This is something the disciples and Christ himself dealt with I am sure!

My whole point here was that many hold one sin as greater than another, where in fact all sin is sin save blasphemy.

Divorce no more holds a man back than any other repented sin, but bmerr is correct it must be repented of!

We know this by careful examination of a persons life!

I feel to many good men of God where refused the chance to do a great work due to some ppls inability to discern the truth from fiction!

 

[bmerr]

Mr. Lowery,

bmerr here. I do want to be clear on this: If a man is divorced for any reason other than fornication on the part of his wife, and marries another woman, that man commits adultery against the first wife. The only way for such a situation to be repented of is for the man to get out of the adulterous marriage. This holds true when the roles are reversed as well (Mark 10:11-12).

The only people who are eligible for marriage are:

1. Those who have never married.

2. Those whose spouse has died.

3. Those who were the innocent party in a marriage terminated due to fornication.

Divorce is never commanded, only permitted in the case of fornication.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[Rev. Lowery]

Mr. Lowery,

bmerr here. I do want to be clear on this: If a man is divorced for any reason other than fornication on the part of his wife, and marries another woman, that man commits adultery against the first wife. The only way for such a situation to be repented of is for the man to get out of the adulterous marriage. This holds true when the roles are reversed as well (Mark 10:11-12).

The only people who are eligible for marriage are:

1. Those who have never married.

2. Those whose spouse has died.

3. Those who were the innocent party in a marriage terminated due to fornication.

Divorce is never commanded, only permitted in the case of fornication.

In Christ,

bmerr

You said exactly what I have been saying but I am trying to show why its the way it is with scripture! People forget about matt 19:9 where fornication the only acceptable cause for divorce! AND, in that remarriage is OK and one can go one to do anything they wish within the church!

 

[Amy.G]

I know the Bible teaches that adultery is the only reason for divorce, but I've often wondered why the subject of abuse wasn't addressed in the Bible. How does a woman who is in an abusive marriage get away from it Biblically? Is she forbidden to leave her husband?

 

[Rev. Lowery]

NO, she is not forbiden to leave they may be seperated for a time then be reconciled to one another!

1 Corinthians 7:10-11 (King James Version)

King James Version

10And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.



This goes hand in hand with:



Matthew 19:8-13 (King James Version)

King James Version

8He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.