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Divorce question...specifics...

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
One of our Baptist Distinctives is soul liberty. We have the right to come to different conclusions on this matter and yet have passionate beliefs or convictions on this very important doctrine. It is vitally important because of the serious consequences that it has to the people involved. In some churches it forbids a person from ever marrying again, even when divorced at a young age. (I believe this to be true). And that is tough.

Also it limits the service that a divorced, and in particular a remarried person may have. I believe that a divorced and remarried person cannot be a pastor. (the husband of one wife). There are churches that apply that same rule to Sunday School teachers and even the organist. The consequences of violating God's sacred institution of marriage are great. It is not just an insignificant doctrine. It is quite significant with a good portion of Scripture devoted to it.
DHK
 

Baptist in Richmond

Active Member
Originally posted by DHK:
One of our Baptist Distinctives is soul liberty. We have the right to come to different conclusions on this matter and yet have passionate beliefs or convictions on this very important doctrine. It is vitally important because of the serious consequences that it has to the people involved. In some churches it forbids a person from ever marrying again, even when divorced at a young age. (I believe this to be true). And that is tough.
Ah, then what counsel would you give to a remarried Believer? How are they to move forward? Are they relegated to second-class status in the congregation?

Also it limits the service that a divorced, and in particular a remarried person may have. I believe that a divorced and remarried person cannot be a pastor. (the husband of one wife). There are churches that apply that same rule to Sunday School teachers and even the organist. The consequences of violating God's sacred institution of marriage are great. It is not just an insignificant doctrine. It is quite significant with a good portion of Scripture devoted to it.
You did not actually identify yourself as someone who thinks that divorced people cannot be Sunday School teachers or organists, so if you do not subscribe to this belief, then you do not need to answer these questions. If anyone is someone who feels that divorced people cannot do these acts of service, I am curious:

1. What specific Passages are the rationale for the exclusion of any service?
2. Why stop there? Why would the congregation not expel the member for daring to violate "God's sacred institution of marriage?"

Furthermore, where does the divorced member "fit in" with respect to the congregational hierarchy?
Are former drug abusers allowed to teach Sunday School?
What about alcoholics?
What about fornicators?
What about the convicted felons?
How about converted "New Agers?"
What about converted Satanists?
What about former homosexuals?
What about a former athiests?

Are these people allowed to be organists, or must they sit in shame at the back of the church with the divorced Believers?

Amazing that the Grace that saved me cannot overcome the wicked sin of violating "God's sacred institution of marriage."
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
If every single scriptural item were to be doctrinal, then every single baptist church would be guilty of at least one or two false doctrines, given that no two churches interpret scripture exacrly the same
This could not be more true. False teaching is false doctrine. That is why we all need to be very careful to do as the Bereans did, and to do it every time we here the word of God preached or taught, and to be very careful about which hymns and chorus we participate in the singing of, and which ones we do not. And of course we need to be very careful about what we teach others, including our own children.
 

gb93433

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by DHK:
One of our Baptist Distinctives is soul liberty. We have the right to come to different conclusions on this matter and yet have passionate beliefs or convictions on this very important doctrine. It is vitally important because of the serious consequences that it has to the people involved. In some churches it forbids a person from ever marrying again, even when divorced at a young age. (I believe this to be true). And that is tough.


DHK
So let’s get down to the practical aspect of God’s work and who He has chosen to use to lead His people.

If you believe that then you must include an engagement or betrothal because for a betrothal to be broken it required a divorce.

If you place that much emphasis on marriage and divorce then you must include murder also. But God in His wosdom chose to use Moses a murderer and David a murderer also.

So are you saying that somehow divorce is worse than murder. Remember God chose to use those two murderers to lead His people. Or would you say a pastor is a different leader than David and Moses leading God’s people?
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Amazing that the Grace that saved me cannot overcome the wicked sin of violating "God's sacred institution of marriage."
As has already been discussed earlier in this thread, and in the other current thread on divorce and remarriage, getting divorced is not a momentary sin that God forgives upon confession of the sin. Remaining divorced is also a sin as long as the spouse is alive. And if because of the divorce, the spouse sins, the party divorcing the spouse is responsible for that sin. And if the party getting the divorce "remarries," that is adultery. And if the party getting the divorce continues in that new "marriage," the sin of adultery is an ongoing sin.

As has also already been discussed, for 500 years the Church did not allow either divorce or remarriage. And for the next 1000 years it rarely allowed divorce and remarriage and only in specific circumstances in which the original marriage was deemed by the Church to be other than a true marriage. For the next 450 years the evangelical churches either forbade divorce in all circumstances, or else only in the case where it could be proved that an act of adultery had taken place.

Baptist churches have been around a lot longer than 40 years, but the current attitudes and teaching about divorce and remarriage have not. God has not changed; His standards have not changed; the Bible has not changed; only the attitudes and teachings of sinful men and women have changed.

Mark 10:11. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Luke 16:18. "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

Rom. 7:3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

1 Cor. 7:10. But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11. (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

(NASB, 1995)
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
If you believe that then you must include an engagement or betrothal because for a betrothal to be broken it required a divorce.
We, as Christians, are no longer in bondage to Jewish laws.

If you place that much emphasis on marriage and divorce then you must include murder also. But God in His wosdom chose to use Moses a murderer and David a murderer also.
The absurdity of these statements has already been addressed in both this thread, and the other current thread on divorce and remarriage, including the post immediately previous to this one. God uses people who have repented of their sins. Moses and David repented and did not continue murdering people.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by Baptist in Richmond:
Ah, then what counsel would you give to a remarried Believer? How are they to move forward? Are they relegated to second-class status in the congregation?
Nobody is second class--no one. All throughout the Bible we note the principle that there is a consequence for sin. Nowhere do we have so many examples of this then in the Old Testament. But even in the New Testamenet, Annanias and Sapphira met death because of their hypocrisy. So did many of the Corinthians because they abused the Lord's Table (1Cor.11:30).
If a woman takes drugs while she is pregnant, and then asks God for forgiveness once the baby is born, God will surely forgive her. But the damage is already done. The baby will suffer incurable brain damage the rest of its life. There is a consequence for sin.

In marriage there is a sacred vow made before God and man. When that vow is broken there is a consequence for breaking it, and those that break that vow need to face the consequences thereof.
Paul said: "My grace is sufficient for thee."
Marriage is not a necessity. The single life can be a very profitable life to live especially when serving the Lord. As Paul points out the single person does not have the cares of the world, how to please his spouse, or take care of his family, but is able to devote all his time to the Lord. Is this a bad thing?

Also it limits the service that a divorced, and in particular a remarried person may have. I believe that a divorced and remarried person cannot be a pastor. (the husband of one wife). There are churches that apply that same rule to Sunday School teachers and even the organist. The consequences of violating God's sacred institution of marriage are great. It is not just an insignificant doctrine. It is quite significant with a good portion of Scripture devoted to it.
You did not actually identify yourself as someone who thinks that divorced people cannot be Sunday School teachers or organists, so if you do not subscribe to this belief, then you do not need to answer these questions. If anyone is someone who feels that divorced people cannot do these acts of service, I am curious:

1. What specific Passages are the rationale for the exclusion of any service?
You are right I do not subscribe to all that I said, but only some of it, and even then I am not absolutely dogmatic. I look upon it as an ideal. For example, in a Christian school or in a Sunday School, the children look up to their teacher almost as much as they do to their own parents. The teacher is a role model and a very important one. It is not a good role model if you have a teacher who is divorced and remarried. It is giving the wrong message to the children. We teach by example.
I don't believe the same way concerning an organist, or soloist, etc.

2. Why stop there? Why would the congregation not expel the member for daring to violate "God's sacred institution of marriage?"
It depends what you mean. No one is ever turned away from coming to church. We invite all to come. But if someone is violating God's sacred institution of marriage and living in adultery, we would take the steps according to Matthew 18, and exercise church discipline. In fact we have done so in the past. That was many years ago. The disciplined member has since repented and come back to the church.

Furthermore, where does the divorced member "fit in" with respect to the congregational hierarchy?
Are former drug abusers allowed to teach Sunday School?
What about alcoholics?
What about fornicators?
What about the convicted felons?
How about converted "New Agers?"
What about converted Satanists?
What about former homosexuals?
What about a former athiests?
What does the Bible says about the qualifications of pastors and deacons. a deacon is but a servant of the church. I don't believe a deacon is a special office. The word simply means servant. "The husband of one wife," is a phrase that excludes divorced and remarried people. Polygamy was not the issue. Sexual sins are the sins that God is concerned with here--fornicators--absolutely not! He is disqualified right away. Any person living in sin ought not to be teaching.
But if you are talking of those that have repented and are now saved, yes God allows them to do so. The difference is the importance God puts on the sanctity of the home, the institution of marriage. It is so holy that he has compared it (in Eph.5) to the marriage of all believers (His Bride) to himself (the Bridegroom).

Are these people allowed to be organists, or must they sit in shame at the back of the church with the divorced Believers?
No, of course not. I don't take that stand. Anyone can play the organ. And God loves all equally. God has a place of service for everyone in the church.

Amazing that the Grace that saved me cannot overcome the wicked sin of violating "God's sacred institution of marriage."
We have two parapelegics in our church, both made that way because of car accidents that they were in. They suffered the consequences of their own sin. Did God forgive them of their wrecklessness, and foolishness? Yes. But they will be confined to wheelchairs the rest of their lives.
Amazing that the Grace that saved them cannot overcome the wicked sin of violating "God's law of obeying the authority that God has put over you (government--speed limits, etc.). There is a consequence for sin.
DHK
 

Baptist in Richmond

Active Member
Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
As has already been discussed earlier in this thread, and in the other current thread on divorce and remarriage, getting divorced is not a momentary sin that God forgives upon confession of the sin. Remaining divorced is also a sin as long as the spouse is alive. And if because of the divorce, the spouse sins, the party divorcing the spouse is responsible for that sin. And if the party getting the divorce "remarries," that is adultery. And if the party getting the divorce continues in that new "marriage," the sin of adultery is an ongoing sin.
So, exactly what is one supposed to do? Are they to divorce their new spouse? Are you saying that the Believer should divorce the new wife, and remarry the first wife? According to you, the husband cannot remain divorced, nor can they remain married.

It would appear that divorce is a sin that cannot be overcome any other way than to remarry the first wife. If you are claiming this, where is your Scriptural Support for such a bizarre contention? You haven't provided anything that states the perpetuity of which you write.
 
A

amixedupmom

Guest
I hate to say this but Christ forgives ALL sin. One you are saved , it's all in the past. He's wants us to move on from THIS moment. Our past is what will destory the person we are to become.

Divorce is not a sin. Not in the case discussed in this thread. And, there is no way you can convince me personally otherwise. I think he should just be happy with his wife and move on from here. I think they should put it in the past and leave it DEAD and BURIED.

If they don't they are never going to be able to be the married couple that the LORD intended.

You can argue all day that the LORD dosen't bust up a realtionship. I agree, but the devil dose it everyday. And, once something is done there is little you can do about it. It's time to move on. I respect everyone's opinion in this case but let's give John some understanding and support.

God Bless
 

Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by DHK:
Nothing in the Bible is that unimportant that it cannot be taught.

While I agree with that statement, we're often guilty of turining scriptural molehills into mountains. Using the "color of Jesus' robe" as example, the truth in scripture is that Jesus' robe was of a color that was intended to mock his claim of royalty. The color itself, be it purple, crimson, burgundy, violet, magenta, etc, is completely unimportant. We make a scriptural mountain of a molehill when we say that it MUST be a specific color.
John what are you doing is pointing out that some doctrines are more important than others. That is true.

At last, we're seeing eye to eye. Mose to the point, what I'm getting at is that some things we think are doctrine are not doctrine at all. The color of Jesus' robe is not doctrine. The significance of the color of Jesus robe (royalty) is.
Paul said that he taught the "whole counsel of God." So should we.
True, but again, using the robe color as example, "the whole counsel of God" is the fact that Jesus' claim of royalty was mocked and misunderstood. The whole counsel of God is not what shade of purple Jesus' robe was.
 

MTA

New Member
It is important to recognize that divorce is a sin, but not a sin that is unforgiveable. Christ saved the woman at the well and she had been married 5 times and the man she was currently living with was not her husband.

When people repent of a sin, it means they turn away from the sin. If we could all go back in time, we would no doubt jump at the chance to undo many things, but the reality is that history is forever out of reach. Thanks be to God, the forgiveness Christ offers is not only present forgiveness for past sins, but once forgiven, he remembers our sin no more.

Still, even when forgiveness is given, we cannot always avoid the consequences of sin. Most people agree that preachers that divorce cannot pastor a church. People who break civil laws can be forgiven, but they likely will still go to jail. But what of the laymembers that divorce? What does anyone propose we do with the man and/or woman that divorces unscripturally and ultimately remarries? How about if we simply stone them all for being adulterers? Or, how about if we reserve special seating sections in our churches that are clearly identified for the "unclean" only? Better yet, why don't we all stand where everyone can see and hear us as we offer thanks to God that we are not like those sinners?


1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Originally posted by MTA:
It is important to recognize that divorce is a sin, but not a sin that is unforgiveable. Christ saved the woman at the well and she had been married 5 times and the man she was currently living with was not her husband.
Any sin is forgiveable; no one denies that.
When people repent of a sin, it means they turn away from the sin. If we could all go back in time, we would no doubt jump at the chance to undo many things, but the reality is that history is forever out of reach. Thanks be to God, the forgiveness Christ offers is not only present forgiveness for past sins, but once forgiven, he remembers our sin no more.
He remembers it no more; but the consequences of it remain. Ask any criminal that is spending a life sentence in jail for his sin.
Still, even when forgiveness is given, we cannot always avoid the consequences of sin. Most people agree that preachers that divorce cannot pastor a church. People who break civil laws can be forgiven, but they likely will still go to jail. But what of the laymembers that divorce? What does anyone propose we do with the man and/or woman that divorces unscripturally and ultimately remarries? How about if we simply stone them all for being adulterers? Or, how about if we reserve special seating sections in our churches that are clearly identified for the "unclean" only? Better yet, why don't we all stand where everyone can see and hear us as we offer thanks to God that we are not like those sinners?
Why should we hold the pastor to any more punishment than others. Would you advocate stoning your pastor too. Aren't your examples a bit extreme? You recognize that there is a consequence for a pastor who has divorced and remarried, but you can't recognize that for others? That is inconsistent.
BYW the same standard holds true for a deacon. A deacon is but a servant of the church. In a sense we are all servants, all deacons. Do you serve the Lord?

1Ti 1:15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Forgiveness of sin is one thing; living with the consequences of the sin is another. Let us never forget the difference.
DHK
 

UnderHisWings

New Member
I think it is a shame to broad brush a topic like divorce and thus condemn many a good man from the pupit of God because we are using the comfortable, but not particularly only way of interpretation.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
1 Timothy 3:1-5 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;
3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

God set the standards for a pastor. They are strict. They need to be obeyed. Divorced and remarried pastors are entirely out of the question.

BTW, welcome to the board UnderHisWings.
DHK
 

delly

New Member
We each have to pay the consequences of our own sin, not anyone else's. ALL have sinned, so all must pay the consequences for something, be it divorce or a preacher lusting after some woman in the congregation or taking money from the church treasury. It's all sin and none of us are immuned.

Some of you seem determined to condemn others to hell when they have clearly repented and have been forgiven by God. You put a limit on God's power and his forgiveness.

I do hope all of us are praying for forgiveness in our own lives before coming on here and condemning someone else.
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
Mark 10:11. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Luke 16:18. "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

Rom. 7:3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

1 Cor. 7:10. But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11. (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband), and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

(NASB, 1995)
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
You haven't provided anything that states the perpetuity of which you write.
Why do you choose to make false statements on a Christian message board? I have posted Scripture that clearly states that a second marriage is an ongoing adulterous relationship.

Rom. 7:3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

I have condemned no one; but several individuals on this message board have proclaimed the guilty to be innocent contrary to the word of God.
 

Johnv

New Member
Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Rom. 7:3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man
You're focusing in on the "is living" part of the verse. You're forgetting about the "her husband" part. If my wife breaks the covenant of marriage by committing adultery or abandonment, and I divorce her for those reasons, then she is no longer my wife. If I join with another the fact, I have not joined to another while my wife is living, because she is not my wife.

BTW, I don't condemn you. Your intentions are genuine, and sincere. What we differ on is scriptural interpretation regarding a divorced person. This is a reasonable and healthy topic to discuss. Even tough we may not reach an agreement, we can reach a respectful and mutual understanding of each other.
 

MTA

New Member
Whether or not anyone believes a pastor should, or should not remain a pastor if divorced is a topic by itself. I only mentioned it because it is generally accepted, not to generate a full-blown discussion on that issue.

My comments were anything but serious and were only to temper the discussion. I completely agree that sometimes there are consequences, regardless of forgiveness, and I said as much. However, what are the consequences for divorced men and women that remarry? How are they to be treated? I maintain that the church needs to help them to move forward with their lives in Christ, but I see several comments on this thread that seemingly do not share that sentiment and I find that more than a little unsettling. I find no consequence for divorce, other than being a sin requiring repentance. Once repentance has been made, do you remember their sin no more?
 

Craigbythesea

Well-Known Member
I think it is a shame to broad brush a topic like divorce and thus condemn many a good man from the pupit of God because we are using the comfortable, but not particularly only way of interpretation.
Good men are not living in an adulterous relationship!

Did God write a Bible that is so difficult to understand that prior to 1960 very few people correctly interpreted even the teaching of marriage and divorce that is found in the Bible? Modern, licentious preachers and teachers have ticked the ears of many, and most of those don't even know it.
 
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