Divorce question...specifics...

[Craigbythesea]

You're focusing in on the "is living" part of the verse. You're forgetting about the "her husband" part. If my wife breaks the covenant of marriage by committing adultery or abandonment, and I divorce her for those reasons, then she is no longer my wife. If I join with another the fact, I have not joined to another while my wife is living, because she is not my wife.

You are confusing California divorce laws with the Scriptures. The California divorce laws are found in the California Civil Code; the Scriptures are found in the Holy Bible. California divorce papers do not have the power to make one flesh two, separate people. And neither do the divorce papers from any other state, province, or republic.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I find no consequence for divorce, other than being a sin requiring repentance. Once repentance has been made, do you remember their sin no more?

Divorce is not murder! The spouse is still alive and still the spouse. A second “marriage” is therefore an adulterous, polygamous relationship. Man made laws and modern, licentious theology do not have the power to change God's mind or what He taught is in the Scriptures. Either the Church was wrong for 1900 years, or much of it is wrong now. You can not have it both ways. I don’t believe in re-interpreting the Bible to force it to conform to changing social values.

 

[MTA]

Okay, then answer my question? How do you treat the divorced and remarried man or woman? How are they treated in your church?

 

[MTA]

I am not arguing that men and women should not divorce, I agree with that. However, divorce is very much a part of our lives and, once it has occured, are you saying that the couple are to be outcasts for past marital failures?

 

[Johnv]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
You are confusing California divorce laws with the Scriptures.

Not at all. California, and many states, have no-fault divorce. Scripture, otoh, allows divorce in two cases: adultery and abandonment. Adultery and abandonment sever the marital covenant (and I don't think it takes a rocket scientest to figure out how or why). If you read my previous post, you'll see I clearly cited scripturally sanctioned divorce.

 

[Rose Fenton]

Have seen the comments about marriage and re-marriage. Surely, the whole point is whether one is a Christian or not!! Sadly, I divorced my first husband "in the world" after 7 years of his unfaithfulness. I tried everything to reconcile but he would not give her up. it was a heart-breaking time for me, but through reading the Bible one night away in a hotel, when I felt I had lost everything, God spoke to me. Later I became a Christian, after I had remarried. It almost broke us up! The Lord graciously brought him to Salvation 3 years afterwards.He had divorced his ex-wife for her infidelity. We have been married 27 years. We know that as heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ, we are one in the Spirit and marriage, which cannot never be broken, till death us part.

This marriage question has brought much sorrow, but I believe that the precious blood of Christ has washed away ALL sin. The only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which a Christian could not commit.

Would be glad to have some views. Yours, By His grace, Rose

 

[Johnv]

Views? My view for you is: May God continue to bless you, your spouse, and your marriage.

 

[DHK]

What is done is done. You have brought it to the Lord, confessed it, and He has forgiven you. And, as you say, He has put it under the blood--forgiven you.
Baptists believe in soul liberty. As you have seen on this thread there is a variety of opinion on divorce and remarriage. Thus your participation in the church would depend on the stand that your pastor would take. To some degree it also depends on your own convictions as well.
You will never be an outcast with God. You will always have a place of service, but IMO, God has put some limitations on divorced and remarried people, though they be forgiven. We live with the consequences of our past actions.
God bless you as you live for Him.
DHK

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> You haven't provided anything that states the perpetuity of which you write.

Why do you choose to make false statements on a Christian message board? I have posted Scripture that clearly states that a second marriage is an ongoing adulterous relationship.</font>[/QUOTE]I didn't, and you "clearly" haven't. Isn't it amazing that "ongoing" is a term that you have interjected into these Passages?

I have condemned no one; but several individuals on this message board have proclaimed the guilty to be innocent contrary to the word of God.

Well, that isn't exactly true now, is it?

Here is your quote again:

And if the party getting the divorce continues in that new "marriage," the sin of adultery is an ongoing sin.

Evidently, you believe in the perpetuity of sin, which you "clearly" have not supported. None of the Passages speak of perpetual sin. The verbs are present tense. And yes, I am familiar with the bizarre "aorist" argument.

I noticed that you did not answer my direct questions to you, so I will try once more:

So, exactly what is one supposed to do? Are they to divorce their new spouse? Are you saying that the Believer should divorce the new wife, and remarry the first wife? According to you, the husband cannot remain divorced, nor can they remain married.

As you have interjected "ongoing" into this subject, exactly what is required to end the "ongoing" nature of the sin?

And by the way, the Scripture "clearly" notes that the Grace of God affords forgiveness to anyone, even divorcees. Confessed sin is forgiven sin, and the confessor is indeed innocent. I would beseech you to be VERY CAREFUL when making statements like this.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by DHK:
What is done is done. You have brought it to the Lord, confessed it, and He has forgiven you. And, as you say, He has put it under the blood--forgiven you.
Baptists believe in soul liberty. As you have seen on this thread there is a variety of opinion on divorce and remarriage. Thus your participation in the church would depend on the stand that your pastor would take. To some degree it also depends on your own convictions as well.
You will never be an outcast with God. You will always have a place of service, but IMO, God has put some limitations on divorced and remarried people, though they be forgiven. We live with the consequences of our past actions.
God bless you as you live for Him.
DHK

I may not agree with you on a great many things, but this was an excellent post, DHK.

 

[StefanM]

Ok, correct me if I'm wrong, but I see a strawman being attacked, and not Craig's true position.

The opposition to Craig's position seems to argue that the sin of the divorce and remarriage is "confessed," so the person is completely forgiven and the marriage is valid and non-sinful.

The problem with this thesis is this. Craig will concede that if the sin is confessed, it is forgiven. Craig is not arguing that a specific sin is never being forgiven; he's arguing that the sin of adultery is recurring on a daily basis.

To use an analogy: If I am married, and I have sex with a prostitute, I commit adultery. I may repent and confess my sin, and I will receive forgiveness. However, if I have sex with this prostitute again, I have committed adultery again. This occasion would require repentance and confession.

Therefore, if having sex with someone who is not your wife is considered to be adultery, if a remarriage is not valid, every sexual act between the two individuals would be a new sin. In this sense, the two could be in "perpetual" sin. Granted, you may have confessed the sin of divorce and remarriage, but that does not justify future sin. Similarly, repenting for having sex with a prostitute does not give one carte blanche to have sex with her again.

If I have incorrectly represented either side, I apologize.

 

[Craigbythesea]

StefanM,

Thank you for sharing with us and explaining my position. You did a very good job. Since the 1960’s my position has become very unpopular in evangelical circles. Prior to the 1960’s, my position was the position of the very large majority of evangelical pastors and teachers. What has changed? Certainly not God or the Scriptures that He gave to us. What has changed is the attitude of evangelicals. I still remember when their attitude was Christ centered, now it is rapidly becoming self centered. Rather than asking what would please God the most, they are asking how much of the ways of the world they can get away with.

Mark 10:11. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Luke 16:18. "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

Rom. 7:3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

1 Cor. 7:10. But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11. (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband, and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

(NASB, 1995)

 

[Craigbythesea]

Adultery and abandonment sever the marital covenant

Yes, it does in the imagination of those who choose to sin against God. But no where in the Bible does it say ANYTHING like that. In fact, as I have already posted several times, the Bible says the exact opposite. As long as both parties in the marriage are still alive, the marriage is in effect. The laws of states, provinces, and republics do not have the power to sever the bond of marriage in God's sight.

Rom. 7:3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
(NASB, 1995)

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> If you believe that then you must include an engagement or betrothal because for a betrothal to be broken it required a divorce.

We, as Christians, are no longer in bondage to Jewish laws.

Certainly, The point I was trying to make was the idea that some hold to and miss the other points associated with those issues.

If you place that much emphasis on marriage and divorce then you must include murder also. But God in His wisdom chose to use Moses a murderer and David a murderer also.

The absurdity of these statements has already been addressed in both this thread, and the other current thread on divorce and remarriage, including the post immediately previous to this one. God uses people who have repented of their sins. Moses and David repented and did not continue murdering people. </font>[/QUOTE]Exactly my point. Some seem to hold divorce above murder. But God chose to use men whose sins were much more gruesome than divorce.

 

[Craigbythesea]

You are radically missing the point! Moses and David repented and did not continue murdering people. Every one who is in a second "marriage" with a new spouse while their first spouse is still alive is continuing to commit adultery every time they have sex with the new spouse. Repenting of one act of adultery and then committing adultery over and over and over again is not Biblical repentance and it does not absolve the parties from sin.

Mark 10:11. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Luke 16:18. "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

Rom. 7:3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

1 Cor. 7:10. But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11. (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband, and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Adultery and abandonment sever the marital covenant

Yes, it does in the imagination of those who choose to sin against God. But no where in the Bible does it say ANYTHING like that. In fact, as I have already posted several times, the Bible says the exact opposite. As long as both parties in the marriage are still alive, the marriage is in effect. The laws of states, provinces, and republics do not have the power to sever the bond of marriage in God's sight.

Rom. 7:3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
(NASB, 1995) </font>[/QUOTE]1 Cor. 7:15, "Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

 

[Craigbythesea]

1 Cor. 7:15, "Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace.

Paul is here speaking of a separation a mensa et thoro. That is VERY different from a separation a vinculo matrimonii.

 

[Charles Meadows]

I think I'm going to have to disagree with Craig here.

Now a person who divorces a spouse (who had been faithful to the marriage covenant) and then marries another DOES commit adultery. This person obviously is not right with God. If the person does repent I do not think that continuing in the second marriage constitutes continuing adultery.

 

[Baptist in Richmond]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
You are radically missing the point! Moses and David repented and did not continue murdering people. Every one who is in a second "marriage" with a new spouse while their first spouse is still alive is continuing to commit adultery every time they have sex with the new spouse. Repenting of one act of adultery and then committing adultery over and over and over again is not Biblical repentance and it does not absolve the parties from sin.

This claim is not only extraBiblical, it is completely fatuitous. There is nothing in the Verses you have quoted repeatedly that speaks of the bizarre contention that remarried people "commit adultery every time they have sex with the new spouse." You have interjected a thought that is very "clearly" not in these Verses. If the person has been forgiven, then it is no longer sin.

Once again, you never answered my direct questions to you, so I will assume that you either cannot or will not provide answers.

If a person divorces the second spouse, they have managed to commit the same sin with another person.

If the person is to remain married, then they are to adhere to the marital guidelines set forth in the 7th chapter of I Corinthians. Your claim that they are to remain celibate would "clearly" be a contradiction of Verse 5.

As for King David, after God took the child produced by his adultery, David went back to his "new wife" and the result was another child, Solomon. I would beseech you also to refrain from adding to the Message.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Pro 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

I see that it is easy for you to tell me, applying your human "wisdom," that I am wrong; but none of you have posted an exegetical refutation to the clear and obvious teachings of Jesus. His teachings on marriage and divorce were so strict that his disciples replied,

"If the relationship of the man with his wife is like this, it is better not to marry."

If your teaching is the same as that of Jesus, why do we not here such a reply to your teaching? The answer is obvious. Your teaching is not nearly as strict as the teaching of Jesus. Indeed, it is a very, very different teaching, a teaching that contradicts the teaching of Jesus. You are not only arguing with me, you are arguing against God and His word in the Bible

Mark 10:11. And He *said to them, "Whoever divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her;
12. and if she herself divorces her husband and marries another man, she is committing adultery."

Luke 16:18. "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery.

Rom. 7:3. So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.

1 Cor. 7:10. But to the married I give instructions, not I, but the Lord, that the wife should not leave her husband
11. (but if she does leave, she must remain unmarried, or else be reconciled to her husband, and that the husband should not divorce his wife.

You have no answer to the word of God, so you ask me how I would clean up the mess that you have made out of people's lives. I did not condone the divorces, you did. I din not condone the second “marriages,” you did. And you ask ME how I would clean it up? My answer is that I would trust in the wisdom of God and His word in the Bible rather than the licentious foolishness of men.