Featured do ANY Arminians Hold that ANY In OT righteous By keeping Law?

New Testament specifically states that they were found righteous for their faith, not their abiding by the law.

 

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

5 And He took him outside and said, "Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them." And He said to him, "So shall your descendants be." 6 Then he believed in the LORD; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

James 2:23 NIV
New International Version
And the scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness," and he was called God's friend.

Galatians 3:6
So also Abraham "believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."

 

Gal 1:6-11 says that in all of time there has been only ONE Gospel.

Heb 4:1 says "the Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM ALSO".

From Adam onward -- all mankind has been saved by one Gospel model "By grace through faith and that not of works".

No change OT vs NT. One Gospel in both ages.

Enoch and Elijah went to heaven without dying NOT because they never sinned, but because they walked with God. In harmony with His Word - by the power of the Holy Spirit in true Romans 8 fashion.

The depravity of man in the OT is the same as in the NT.

The Work of the Holy Spirit in causing the New birth is a PRE-Cross teaching of the Gospel.

Intersting that C.H. Spurgeon and the "Baptist Confession of Faith" affirm this same principle that the moral law of God - the TEN Commandments - is not at all in opposition to the Gospel but rather is written on the heart in the case of the people of God -- from Eden to this very day -

in Christ,

Bob

 

You are exactly right about all the above and I have been preaching and teaching that for over 40 years.

You are exactly right that the moral law is eternal and is not in conflict with the gospel but Christ has fulfilled ALL OF ITS REQUIREMENTS FOR US and that is the GOOD NEWS of the gospel. However, what is written on our hearts is not the Ten Commandments but the PRINCIPLE underlying the ten commandments which is LOVE as God "IS LOVE" and God is NOT the ten commandments!

The whole law, moral, civil, ceremonial hang on this one PRINCIPLE and yet THE WHOLE LAW is not what is written on our heart any more than the Ten commandment is written on our hearts. However, your understanding and application demands that THE WHOLE LAW is written verbatim on the heart of the born again child of God IF you demand the Ten commandment is written on the heart verbatim. You can't have your cake and eat it too! You cannot deny one without the other because Christ demands BOTH are represented by the same principle - love!

Here is where you pervert the gospel of Christ and change grace into law and deny that the complete SATISFACTION of the Law by the life and death of Christ and that we are DEAD to the law as far as ALL OF ITS DEMANDS but that we live ABOVE the law according to the principle of Love which the Holy Spirit sheds abroad through our heart (Rom. 5:6). Here is where you confuse justification by faith with sanctification by faith and teach the same heresy in principle as Romanism.

YOur problem is that Love is the principle by which God operates as God is Love but the Bible never says "God is Law." Love is the operating principle of the WHOLE LAW and the Prophets not merely the Ten commandments. Love represents the operating principle of the WHOLE LAW as much as the Ten Commandments and yet we are not under the WHOLE LAW as even you admit. We are neither under the Ten commandments any more than we are under the WHOLE LAW but under the HIGHER principle of Love just as God is. Law is INFERIOR to love or don't you know that? Love demands much more than Law or don't you know that?

Finally, only the Holy Spirit can implement the prinicple of LOVE in the Christian life and ONLY when the Christian is "led" or "FILLED" by the Spirit and AT NTHER TIME. No Christian is "filled" with the Spirit at ALL TIMES and filling has NOTHING to do with obtaining entrance into heaven or turned into hell but with redeeming "the time" (Eph. 5:16) or the salvation of the DAILY LIFE in forms of rewards and present blessings.

 

Now we go to the Baptist Confession of Faith on that point - as framed by C.H. Spurgeon.

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BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH

Chapter 19

Of the Law of God 1. God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart, and a particular precept of not eating the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil; by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it, and endued him with power and ability to keep it.
(Gen. 1:27; Eccles. 7:29; Rom. 10:5; Gal. 3:10, 12)


2. The same law that was first written in the heart of man continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall, and was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai, in TEN COMMANDMENTS, and written in two tables, the four first containing our duty towards God, and the other six, our duty to man.
(Rom. 2:14, 15; Deut. 10:4)


3. Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
(Heb. 10:1; Col. 2:17; I Cor. 5:7; Col. 2:14, 16, 17; Eph. 2:14, 16)
4. To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of modern use.
(1 Cor. 9:8-10)


5. The moral law doth for ever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof, and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it; neither doth Christ in the Gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.
(Rom. 13:8-10; James 2:8, 10-12; James 2:10, 11; Matt. 5:17-19; Rom. 3:31)


6. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.
(Rom. 6:14; Gal. 2:16; Rom. 8:1, 10:4; Rom. 3:20, 7:7, etc; Rom. 6:12-14; 1 Pet. 3:8-13)


7. Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.
(Gal. 3:21; Ezek. 36:27)

=============================================

Here we see that the MORAL LAW is that which was written on the heart and mind under the New Covenant - and that the document is explicit in identifying the "Ten Commandments" as included in the "MORAL LAW".

in Christ,

Bob

 

You missed my point altogether! God did not write VERBATIM the "LETTER" of the ten commandments on anyone's heart as that is not possible. The "LETTER" of the ten commandments are not written on God's heart VERBATIM. God IS LOVE not God IS THE TEN COMMANDMENTS! The WHOLE Law AND the Prophets are merely WRITTEN and SPOKEN expressions of one underlying principal greater than an written form of God's Law and that is "love." What you are teaching is the "LETTER" of the Law rather than the "SPIRIT" of the Law. Love represents the SPIRIT of the law not the "LETTER" of the Law.

Neither did the Baptists who wrote the 1689 Confession or the Baptists who wrote the 1733 New Hampshire Confession deny what I am saying. Neither believed that God wrote the "LETTER" of the Law on anyone's heart but only the "SPIRIT" of the Law which is the same underlying principle under the WHOLE Law AND the interpretative writings of the Prophets.



6. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.( Romans 6:14; Galatians 2:16; Romans 8:1; Romans 10:4; Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7, etc; Romans 6:12-14; 1 Peter 3:8-13 )

You like to quote PARTS of what Baptists say in order to use them against us but you NEVER quote them in their context but ALWAYS jerk their words out of their overal context.

These Baptists believed exactly as I do. They believe the Law of God is not contrary to the gospel of Christ but that Christ fulfilled the whole law in behalf of the sinners and completely satisfied it so they are not longer under the Law for condemnation or as a covenant of works but are justfied WITHOUT THE LAW by grace through faith in Chris'ts substitutionary satisfaction of the Law and thus we are "dead" to the Law in regard to justification now and forever.

What they do believe is that the moral Law is eternal and was NEVER designed by God give eternal life or to justify anyone but simply to reveal sin and define sin and that is still its use for the child of God.


Chapter 11: Of Justification

1. Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.
( Romans 3:24; Romans 8:30; Romans 4:5-8; Ephesians 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:30, 31; Romans 5:17-19; Philippians 3:8, 9; Ephesians 2:8-10; John 1:12; Romans 5:17 )


2. Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.
( Romans 3:28; Galatians 5:6; James 2:17, 22, 26 )


3. Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of himself in the blood of his cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf; yet, inasmuch as he was given by the Father for them, and his obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them, their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.
( Hebrews 10:14; 1 Peter 1:18, 19; Isaiah 53:5, 6; Romans 8:32; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 3:26; Ephesians 1:6,7; Ephesians 2:7 )


4. God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.
( Galatians 3:8; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Timothy 2:6; Romans 4:25; Colossians 1:21,22; Titus 3:4-7 )


5. God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified, and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure; and in that condition they have not usually the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.
( Matthew 6:12; 1 John 1:7, 9; John 10:28; Psalms 89:31-33; Psalms 32:5; Psalms 51; Matthew 26:75 )


6. The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament.
( Galatians 3:9; Romans 4:22-24 )

You are a dishonest man and that dishonesty is manifested by your selective choosing of what other men say and then interpreting their words directly in contradiction to the overall context of what they clearly mean. Your dishonesty is clearly manifested by your own words as you repudiate those PARTS which you do not agree with but at the same time try to use the PARTS you do agree with to claim they agree with your position when in fact they do not as your own admission that PART of their writing you disagree with.

 

We are "under the law" in regard to what the law was designed by God to do - reveal and define the nature of sin. However, the law was never designed to justify, to redeem, to be a means to obtain eternal life by personal obedience.

We are NOT "under the law" in regard to justification, sanctification or glorification. In regard to justification the law's demands is SINLESS perfection of the ENTIRE LIFE from birth to death. In regard to sanctification there is no PERFECT sanctification of the ENTIRE LIFE from birth to death or from new birth to death. Only those aspects of a beleiver's life that are lived under the leadership of the Spirit are sanctified (never any part led by the flesh) and even those parts are only ACCORDING TO THE MEASURE of grace and faith given us which DIFFER with every child of God. Hence, sanctificaiton can NEVER JUSTIFY us now or on judgement day as justificaiton requires a WHOLE LIFE approved by the Law according to a sinless standard (Mt. 5:20; 44). Therefore we are "dead" to the law entirely in regard to justification, sanctification or glorification as the Law has no power to accomplish any of these things. The Holy Spirit accomplishes all of them - through faith in the IMPUTED righteousness of Christ for justification - through faith in the IMPARTED righteousness of Christ for PARTIAL sanctification by the Spirit and thorugh the power of the Spirit alone for regeneration and glorification without the Law altogether.

The "spirit" of the Law is written in our heart but not the "letter" and the "spirit" of the law is only manifested in a believer's life when under the leadership of the Spirit even though it is present within the inward man when the believer is walking after the flesh. Thus the "spirit" of the Law (love) does not justify, does not sanctify, does not glorify the believer but rather characterizes the nature of the inward man and is made manifest only as the HOly Spirit empowers that nature when we walk according to the Spirit - which is PARTIAL and NEVER complete in regard to the ENTIRE life. Hence, we are justified, sanctified and glorified BY GRACE without the works of the law.

 

Let me reduce this whole discussion down to one illustration that will make my point clear. In Mark 2 Jesus explicitly says that what the High Preist did in the days of David in giving him the shewbread to eat was "unlawful" but yet Jesus used this "unlawful" act to justify what his disciples were doing.

According to the "LETTER" of the Law what the High Preist did was "unlawful" as the Law explicit forbid anyone from eating the shewbread in the temple but the priests. None can deny that giving this bread to David AND HIS MEN was "unlawful" according to the LETTER of the Law.

However, ask why God gave that Law? When you ask that question, you are then looking for the INTENT or the PRINCIPLE behind the "letter" or the "SPIRIT" of the Law. The law was given within the context of SYMBOLISM to teach a broader truth. The preists were types of Christ and believers and the bread was a type of Christ as LIFE. Hence, the bread according to the greater principle of the Law was designed to SUSTAIN and PROVIDE LIFE not to deny or destroy life. Hence, the High Priest did not violate the PRINCIPLE or "SPIRIT" or intent for this law although he did violate the "LETTER" of that Law.

Here is my point. No human brain is capable of understanding, harmonizing and applying the "Letter" of the Law to any given thought, words and actions in any given circumstance so that his thoughts, words and actions harmonize with everything the Law has to say that regard? Jesus said there are commands in the Law that are of greater significance than other commands (Mt. 23:23) but what human can know and is able to strike the perfect balance so that the Law is correctly applied at all times in their life? No fallen man can!

Hence, the only true administrator of the Law is the Spirit of Christ and to "walk after the Spirit" means that the Holy Spirit is leading you to think, say and act in a way that fulfills the HIGHER PRINCIPLE or intent/design behind the giving of a particular "LETTER" of the law.

Romans 3:21-22 says that the righteousness of God is now made manifest WITHOUT THE LAW and the PROPHETS (interpretations) but manifest in the LIFE of Christ. Christ had the FULLNESS of the Spirit and so all of His thoughts, words and deeds in every given circumstance always HARMONIZED with the SPIRIT/intent/disign of every given "LETTER" of the Law although He may have contradicted the strict "LETTER" of the Law in the same way the High Priest contradicted it in giving the shewbread to David.

A Pharisee is one who lives by the "LETTER" of the Law and never seeks to know and understand WHY or WHAT is the Divine purpose behind the "LETTER" or the "SPIRIT" of the Law. In the New Testament the "SPIRIT" of the law is called "LOVE" and all the Law and the Prophets hang on that SPIRIT/INTENT/DESIGN which may conflict with the "LETTER" of the Law in the context in which the LETTER is given but never conflicts with the overall PRINCIPLE behind that Law or any other Law.

One extreme is legalism (letter) and the other extreme is Laciviousness or situational ethics - do as you please - both are wrong. This is why we must walk "by faith" under the leadership of the Spirit to strike the right balance in our life in any given circumstance. This is why no man can judge the "spiritual man" because if that judgement is restricted to human comprehension of the "Letter" of the Law that judgement may be as wrong as judging the High Priest for what appeared to be violating of the Letter of the Law in giving the shew bread to David and His men.

The key to knowing what is right versus wrong here is that proper obedience is NEVER in violation of the INTENT behind the giving of any "LETTER" of the Law although it may be inviolation of the strict "letter." Proper obedience will harmonize with the GREATER WHOLE of the Law and that GREAT WHOLE is called "love."

 

All who oppose OSAS are simply a rehash of RCC soteriology.

 

In Mark 2 Christ is accused of breaking the Law. Christ does not argue "go ahead break the law it does not matter" in Mark 2 and in Mark 7 He goes so far as to condemn the religious administration for setting aside one of the TEN commandments in favor of their tradition.

But as you point out - Christ is promoting the true spirit of the law - but not using it as an excuse to break the law.

Indeed - just as Romans 8 point out for us.

3 For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh,
4 so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit.
6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace,
7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Now we go to the Baptist Confession of Faith on that point - as framed by C.H. Spurgeon.

==================================================

BAPTIST CONFESSION OF FAITH


6. Although true believers be not under the law as a covenant of works, to be thereby justified or condemned, yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, in that as a rule of life, informing them of the will of God and their duty, it directs and binds them to walk accordingly; discovering also the sinful pollutions of their natures, hearts, and lives, so as examining themselves thereby, they may come to further conviction of, humiliation for, and hatred against, sin; together with a clearer sight of the need they have of Christ and the perfection of his obedience; it is likewise of use to the regenerate to restrain their corruptions, in that it forbids sin; and the threatenings of it serve to shew what even their sins deserve, and what afflictions in this life they may expect for them, although freed from the curse and unallayed rigour thereof. The promises of it likewise shew them God's approbation of obedience, and what blessings they may expect upon the performance thereof, though not as due to them by the law as a covenant of works; so as man's doing good and refraining from evil, because the law encourageth to the one and deterreth from the other, is no evidence of his being under the law and not under grace.
(Rom. 6:14; Gal. 2:16; Rom. 8:1, 10:4; Rom. 3:20, 7:7, etc; Rom. 6:12-14; 1 Pet. 3:8-13)

7. Neither are the aforementioned uses of the law contrary to the grace of the Gospel, but do sweetly comply with it, the Spirit of Christ subduing and enabling the will of man to do that freely and cheerfully which the will of God, revealed in the law, requireth to be done.
(Gal. 3:21; Ezek. 36:27)

=============================================

Here we see that the MORAL LAW is that which was written on the heart and mind under the New Covenant - and that the document is explicit in identifying the "Ten Commandments" as included in the "MORAL LAW".

You missed my point altogether I did not include a "God wrote verbatim in the heart" statement in my post.

My point was to show that the Ten Commandments are included in the Moral law of God - EVEN by "Baptist Confession of Faith" standards as edited by C.H. Spurgeon.

Acting out by vilifying this or that person on the BB is not going to solve your issues.

In the post above - I was just stating the obvious.

Perhaps then I missed your point in your striving to agree disagreeably.


in Christ,

Bob

 

well - just "the obvious".

1. That both of those sources agree that the 4th commandment as given by God in the OT is Saturday - the 7th day of the week (though sometimes they like to call it the "last day of the week" so people won't notice that this is in fact the 7th day of the week).

2. Both of them admit that the 4th commandment was binding on all mankind in Eden and remains so - to this very day.

So while I differ with their wild notion that the 4th commandment can be "bent" to point to Sunday after the cross. I still think they get those first two points right.

Just like I agree that Baptists get the believer's Baptism doctrine correct even though they are dead wrong on OSAS.

Just because I differ with one point does not mean I have to blindly throw everything else they say out the window.

And of course it stunts the knee-jerk hallow and oft repeated response that "only I" would notice that the TEN Commandments are the moral law of God and have been binding on all mankind since Eden.


Obviously.

And of course they have dozens of Bible texts - making that case for the Commandments of God.

Wow - I thought 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" -- WAS "the inspired WORD of God - the Bible" Did I miss something?

I thought Rev 14:12 "KEEP the Commandments of God AND Their Faith in Jesus" -- WAS "the inspired WORD of God - the Bible" Did I miss something?

I thought John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" -- WAS "the inspired WORD of God - the Bible" Did I miss something?

I thought Exodus 20:7 "love Me and KEEP My commandments" -- WAS "the inspired WORD of God - the Bible" Did I miss something?

What about 1 John 5:2-4 is that the one you have not seen repeated more than 12 times in my posts on this subject -- yet?

And of course -- you and I BOTH know that you personally have seen this Bible list in much longer form from me - about a dozen times on this subject.

So whose leg are you trying to pull just now?? Someone reading this thread?? Who? I think you just wanted to give me the opportunity to remind everyone - that you and I have seen that list of texts posted by me - about a dozen times -- and thanks!

in Christ,

Bob