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Do BOTH Cals/Arms Affirm man Being Both depraived And Unable To Come To God ?
- Thread starter JesusFan
- Start date
quantumfaith
Active Member
that we hold that we are both depraved and have no ability to come to God, have faith in Christ UNLESS God provides his grace towards us?
Calvinism (Reformed, Historical Baptist....)
"Total depravity": This doctrine, also called "total inability", asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)[7] This doctrine is borrowed from Augustine who was a member of a Manichaean sect in his youth.
From the Remonstrance (Article 3)
Article 3. That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good
Calvinism (Reformed, Historical Baptist....)
"Total depravity": This doctrine, also called "total inability", asserts that as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God. Thus, all people by their own faculties are morally unable to choose to follow God and be saved because they are unwilling to do so out of the necessity of their own natures. (The term "total" in this context refers to sin affecting every part of a person, not that every person is as evil as possible.)[7] This doctrine is borrowed from Augustine who was a member of a Manichaean sect in his youth.
From the Remonstrance (Article 3)
Article 3. That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do any thing that is truly good (such as saving faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good
Sounds like agreement here!
quantumfaith
Active Member
Sounds like agreement here!
Article 1. That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ.
Article 2. That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, died for all men, and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer.
Article 1. That God, by an eternal, unchangeable purpose in Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save in Christ, for Christ's sake, and through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his Son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ.
Article 2. That, agreeably thereto, Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the world, died for all men, and for every man, so that he has obtained for them all, by his death on the cross, redemption and the forgiveness of sins; yet that no one actually enjoys this forgiveness of sins except the believer.
have to also add the viewpoint of the Amyraldism person like myself, caught between classic cals/arms here on the BB...
Who affirms that Jesus indeed died for sins of ALL people on Cross, so potentally all could benefit, but ONLY those chosen and elected by God in Christ actuall y have it effects applied to their behalf
I believe we are born flesh, which is the term the scriptures uses. Jesus said the flesh is weak, which I believe means we are easily tempted to sin. The scriptures say we suffer infirmities, which is another term for weakness, and is commonly associated with temptation.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
The scriptures say Jesus came in the flesh and could be "touched" with the "feeling" of our infirmities and was in all points tempted like as we are. I do not believe we are born with a sin nature, because the scriptures say Jesus had the same nature as the seed of Abraham. I think a more accurate description would be that we have a "temptation nature". Still, the scriptures say simply flesh.
I do not believe man of his own would ever come to God, but man has never been on his own and has always had some revelation of God from the beginning starting with Adam and Eve. So, it is irrelevant to argue this situation, as it has never existed. I do believe man can respond to God when he calls. Even after Adam and Eve sinned and were dead in sin, they were able to respond to God and come to him when he called.
The scriptures clearly differentiate between temptation and sin. Being tempted is not sin, Jesus was often tempted, but never sinned. Temptation entices or draws a man toward sin, but temptation does not become sin until the person willingly obeys it when this desire is contrary to God's will or commands.
Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
The scriptures say Jesus came in the flesh and could be "touched" with the "feeling" of our infirmities and was in all points tempted like as we are. I do not believe we are born with a sin nature, because the scriptures say Jesus had the same nature as the seed of Abraham. I think a more accurate description would be that we have a "temptation nature". Still, the scriptures say simply flesh.
I do not believe man of his own would ever come to God, but man has never been on his own and has always had some revelation of God from the beginning starting with Adam and Eve. So, it is irrelevant to argue this situation, as it has never existed. I do believe man can respond to God when he calls. Even after Adam and Eve sinned and were dead in sin, they were able to respond to God and come to him when he called.
The scriptures clearly differentiate between temptation and sin. Being tempted is not sin, Jesus was often tempted, but never sinned. Temptation entices or draws a man toward sin, but temptation does not become sin until the person willingly obeys it when this desire is contrary to God's will or commands.
Only God is good (Luke 18:19). He is the only source of good. Man cannot be good apart (seperated) from God. Not even a little bit. God calls mans righteousness apart from Him "filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6). Our flesh can only produce filthy rags. The flesh profits nothing. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above (James 1:17). Without faith, we cannot please God (Hebrews 11:6). Our nature apart (seperated) from God (Ephesians 2:1-3), children of wrath.
All people are born under the federal headship of Adam and inherit this seperation from God. Apart from God we cannot produce anything good. We cannot please God in any way. The natural mind is hostile to God. That's why God must move first. The absence of God results in only evil. God did not make man evil, it's the separation from all that is good that will always result in evil. It's a principle that is established in scripture right from the beginning. How does God blind and harden the heart? He simply seperates Himself from it/them. Why did God move away from Adam? Original sin. He had to move away and seperate from Adam because He is Holy.
Evil is not a created thing, but is the absence of good, or holiness. Just as there is nothing that can be sourced within God which can produce anything evil, likewise, there is nothing within man apart from God that can produce anything good. God alone is good.
Depravity/spiritual blindness is not a nature but a condition that results from our "sinful nature". Spiritual blindness is judicially inflicted (John 12:40, Matthew 13:13). Spiritual blindness is the result of sin. We are all sinners (as a result of our nature), and as a result we all knew spiritual blindness (Romans 3:10-18, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:5-8).
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Unless God's Spirit moves first, man has a sure ending, and he will willing choose to take that path, every time.
Dave
All people are born under the federal headship of Adam and inherit this seperation from God. Apart from God we cannot produce anything good. We cannot please God in any way. The natural mind is hostile to God. That's why God must move first. The absence of God results in only evil. God did not make man evil, it's the separation from all that is good that will always result in evil. It's a principle that is established in scripture right from the beginning. How does God blind and harden the heart? He simply seperates Himself from it/them. Why did God move away from Adam? Original sin. He had to move away and seperate from Adam because He is Holy.
Evil is not a created thing, but is the absence of good, or holiness. Just as there is nothing that can be sourced within God which can produce anything evil, likewise, there is nothing within man apart from God that can produce anything good. God alone is good.
Depravity/spiritual blindness is not a nature but a condition that results from our "sinful nature". Spiritual blindness is judicially inflicted (John 12:40, Matthew 13:13). Spiritual blindness is the result of sin. We are all sinners (as a result of our nature), and as a result we all knew spiritual blindness (Romans 3:10-18, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Romans 8:5-8).
Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Unless God's Spirit moves first, man has a sure ending, and he will willing choose to take that path, every time.
Dave