Do Christians still have their old nature/flesh after salvation?

[Yeshua1]

Once a sinner has be made anew in Christ, do they also still possess that flesh/sin 'thing" residing in them that still wants to go against God and his ways?

can Christians still at times "live in the flesh", as they find themselves quenching/grieiving the HolySpirit?

or did God totally eliminate that old sin nature from us when we got saved?

 

[Zenas]

Once a sinner has be made anew in Christ, do they also still possess that flesh/sin 'thing" residing in them that still wants to go against God and his ways?

can Christians still at times "live in the flesh", as they find themselves quenching/grieiving the HolySpirit?

or did God totally eliminate that old sin nature from us when we got saved?

If the old sin nature were completely eliminated, all Christians would live sinless lives. Do you live a sinless life? I sure don't. We also know this was something Paul battled within himself. Romans 7.

 

[Reformed]

This subject was obliquely answered in this post: Lordship Salvation post #45

Positionally speaking a Christian is no longer a sinner. Christians still sin. They still exhibit behaviors that are in keeping with their previous sin nature, but they are new creatures (2 Cor. 5:17). The Spirit of God cannot abide with sin. The idea of a dual nature is more akin to eastern religion than it is to Christianity. The reasons Christians sin is the the battle of the mind. It is the mind that has been trained by sin. This is why Paul told the Romans to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2).

 

[Tom Butler]

Paul gives us some help on the OP question. Romans 7:14-25

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul, of course was one of the most spiritual men in the New Testament. And even he described himself as "carnal." And he lamented that battle that was constantly being waged. So, no, we don't lose our sinful nature. We are given a new nature to battle the old nature.

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

The idea of a dual nature is more akin to eastern religion than it is to Christianity.

Then my guess is, the supposed Calvinist Baptist Charles H. Spurgeon disagreeing with you would come as a surprise?

Spurgeon Sermon #1459B: The Dual Nature and the Duel Withinhttp://www.spurgeongems.org/vols25-27/chs1459B.pdfhttp://www.spurgeongems.org/vols25-27/chs1459B.pdf

... Our first head will be, THERE ARE IN ALL BELIEVERS TWO PRINCIPLES. The Apostle speaks of the law of his mind and then of another law in his members warring against the law of his mind. The converted man is a new man in Christ Jesus, but the old nature remains within him. The first life in a Christian, in order of time, is the old Adam nature. It is there from the first. It is born of and with the flesh and it remains in us after we are born of the Spirit, for the second birth does not destroy in us the products of the first birth. ...

Hm. How'd that happen?

 

[clark thompson]

We as Christians are told to fight our flesh.

 

[DHK]

This subject was obliquely answered in this post: Lordship Salvation post #45

Positionally speaking a Christian is no longer a sinner. Christians still sin. They still exhibit behaviors that are in keeping with their previous sin nature, but they are new creatures (2 Cor. 5:17). The Spirit of God cannot abide with sin. The idea of a dual nature is more akin to eastern religion than it is to Christianity. The reasons Christians sin is the the battle of the mind. It is the mind that has been trained by sin. This is why Paul told the Romans to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2).

I disagree. In your link you say:

No. A Christian cannot be in the flesh ("carnal" is taken from the Greek word for "flesh"). A Christian can sin and thereby act as though they are in the flesh, but positionally a Christian cannot be in the flesh.

One could just as easily say:
We are sanctified positionally, and therefore do not have to be sanctified progressively. That is the logic you have taken. It is also the basic position of advocates of LS, though they will deny it.
Look at Calvin's commentary on 1Cor.3:1. He even disagrees with you. He defines the Carnal Christian in that passage as the one who has allowed his nature of flesh to be stronger than his spiritual nature. There are indeed two natures within each believer.

"O wretched man, who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
The answer:
Romans 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
--Only a saved man could utter those words in verse 25.

 

[Winman]

Paul gives us some help on the OP question. Romans 7:14-25


Paul, of course was one of the most spiritual men in the New Testament. And even he described himself as "carnal." And he lamented that battle that was constantly being waged. So, no, we don't lose our sinful nature. We are given a new nature to battle the old nature.

Romans chapter 7 is not Paul speaking of himself as a Christian, but an unregenerate man under the law.

In verse 9-11 he clearly tells us he spiritually died.

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

In verse 7 Paul tells us when he learned the law. He said he would not have known sin except for the law, he would have not known lust except the law said, Thou shalt not covet.

When Paul learned the law he was convicted as a sinner and spiritually died.

In verse 14 he tells us he is carnal, sold under sin.

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

No Christian is sold under sin, we have been redeemed by the blood of Jesus and now belong to him.

In verse 23 Paul tells us he has been brought into "captivity to the law of sin".

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

No Christian is a captive to sin, Paul repeatedly tells us he has been made free of sin and that the Spirit has made him free from the law of sin.

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

Christians still have this earthly body until we die and will always be pulled and tugged by the lusts thereof, but no Christian is sold under sin or a captive of sin. If you are sold under sin and a captive of sin, then you will go straight to hell when you die, as sin OWNS you.

No, we have been purchased by the blood of Jesus. We have died to sin and been raised to new life, we are free from sin.

Romans 7 is Paul speaking of himself under the law before he was saved. He wanted to do good, but he was held captive by sin.

 

[Iconoclast]

Originally Posted by Reformed View Post
This subject was obliquely answered in this post: Lordship Salvation post #45

Positionally speaking a Christian is no longer a sinner. Christians still sin. They still exhibit behaviors that are in keeping with their previous sin nature, but they are new creatures (2 Cor. 5:17). The Spirit of God cannot abide with sin. The idea of a dual nature is more akin to eastern religion than it is to Christianity. The reasons Christians sin is the the battle of the mind. It is the mind that has been trained by sin. This is why Paul told the Romans to "be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2).

Correct as usual Reformed,

From the Baptist Catechism with Commentary;

[

It is vital to understand Rom. 6:6 in this connection: “Knowing this, that
our old man...[was, aorist tense] crucified with him, [in order] that the body of
sin might be destroyed, [in order] that henceforth we should not serve [as
willing bondslaves to] sin.” The “old man” was the unregenerate self, who
was crucified with Christ, i.e., died with Christ in his death. The reason is so
the body with its appetites might no longer dominate the personality, and that
the believer will now no longer live as he once did—a willing bondslave to
sin. The believer is the “new [regenerate] man” in Christ. The “crucifixion of
the old man” is therefore not a subjective experience to be sought, but a
reality to be reckoned in the experience, as noted in Romans 6:11–14 and 1
Peter 2:24.

Contrary to some traditional teachings, the believer is not comprised of an
“old man” and a “new man;” he is the “new man” in union with Christ. The
“old man,” or unregenerate self, was crucified with Christ. If he were
comprised of two different “men” or “natures” within himself, then he would
be ever frustrated and stymied in any attempt toward holiness and victory
over sin. He would be a kind of “spiritual schizophrenic,” not the biblical
description of the person in whom the reigning power of sin has been broken.
Godliness would forever remain either a crippled half–possibility, dependent
upon his own self–determination or an option, i.e., he could either remain a
225
“Carnal Christian” or seek to become a “spiritual” believer. He could
constantly blame the “old man” or “old nature” for his difficulties and never
take full responsibility for his sin. His union with Christ could be largely
nullified. But the Scripture declares every believer to be a “new man” in
union with Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). This is the reality of the definitive aspect of
sanctification. See Questions 94–95.


What, then, is the source of the believer’s struggle with sin in his life? It is
not the “old man” or the “old nature,” but rather a principle of indwelling sin
and remaining corruption that expresses itself in acts of sin. It has been
traditional on the part of many to refer to this reality of indwelling sin and
remaining corruption as the “old nature.”

Mark carefully Rom. 6:15–8:15 and closely note the following realities:
first, the statement of Romans Chapter seven ends, not at 7:25, but at 8:16.
The idea, therefore of “getting out of Romans Chapter Seven and into
Romans Chapter Eight” is based on a misunderstanding of this passage.

Second, chapter and verse divisions are not inspired. The passage ends on a
note of victory through the enabling grace of the Spirit, not in defeat.

Third, the Apostle has waited until chapter eight to discuss the reality and power of
the Holy Spirit in the believer’s life. The entire section, which reveals the
believer’s relation to the law, extends from 6:15 to 8:9. Fourth, Romans 7:14–
25 is, we believe, the statement of a mature believer who is horribly conscious
of all and any indwelling sin and remaining corruption. When held before the
absolute standard of the law, he is the very epitome of weakness and
inconsistency, or “carnal” [lit: “made of flesh”].


Fifth, he makes a very clear distinction between “I” or himself and the “sin that dwelleth in me,” not the
“old man” or the “old nature.” Finally, his strength and hope of victory lie in
the grace or power of the Holy Spirit, which enables him to conform in
principle to the righteous demands of the Moral Law (Rom. 8:1–16). Has the
reigning power of sin been broken in your life?

 

[DHK]

Icon,
I thought you believed in the Baptist Catechism and Commentary that you quoted from. It disagrees with you.

Third, the Apostle has waited until chapter eight to discuss the reality and power of
the Holy Spirit in the believer’s life. The entire section, which reveals the
believer’s relation to the law, extends from 6:15 to 8:9. Fourth, Romans 7:14–
25 is, we believe, the statement of a mature believer who is horribly conscious
of all and any indwelling sin and remaining corruption. When held before the
absolute standard of the law, he is the very epitome of weakness and
inconsistency, or “carnal” [lit: “made of flesh”].


Fifth, he makes a very clear distinction between “I” or himself and the “sin that dwelleth in me,” not the
“old man” or the “old nature.” Finally, his strength and hope of victory lie in
the grace or power of the Holy Spirit, which enables him to conform in
principle to the righteous demands of the Moral Law (Rom. 8:1–16). Has the
reigning power of sin been broken in your life?

Note how it describes chapter seven as a believer who is "the epitome of weakness and inconsistency or "carnal" (lit. of the flesh).
--This goes entirely against what you have been posting.

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon,
I thought you believed in the Baptist Catechism and Commentary that you quoted from. It disagrees with you.

Note how it describes chapter seven as a believer who is "the epitome of weakness and inconsistency or "carnal" (lit. of the flesh).
--This goes entirely against what you have been posting.

You would have to understand what is written as it is written DHK...not cherry pick it...post the whole portion I posted and it exposes your incorrect teaching..I will post it again in total so those who read will see what you did here.

From the Baptist Catechism with Commentary;

[
Quote:
It is vital to understand Rom. 6:6 in this connection: “Knowing this, that
our old man...[was, aorist tense] crucified with him, [in order] that the body of
sin might be destroyed, [in order] that henceforth we should not serve [as
willing bondslaves to] sin.” The “old man” was the unregenerate self, who
was crucified with Christ, i.e., died with Christ in his death. The reason is so
the body with its appetites might no longer dominate the personality, and that
the believer will now no longer live as he once did—a willing bondslave to
sin. The believer is the “new [regenerate] man” in Christ. The “crucifixion of
the old man” is therefore not a subjective experience to be sought, but a
reality to be reckoned in the experience, as noted in Romans 6:11–14 and 1
Peter 2:24.

Contrary to some traditional teachings, the believer is not comprised of an
“old man” and a “new man;” he is the “new man” in union with Christ. The
“old man,” or unregenerate self, was crucified with Christ. If he were
comprised of two different “men” or “natures” within himself, then he would
be ever frustrated and stymied in any attempt toward holiness and victory
over sin. He would be a kind of “spiritual schizophrenic,” not the biblical
description of the person in whom the reigning power of sin has been broken.
Godliness would forever remain either a crippled half–possibility, dependent
upon his own self–determination or an option, i.e., he could either remain a
225
“Carnal Christian” or seek to become a “spiritual” believer. He could
constantly blame the “old man” or “old nature” for his difficulties and never
take full responsibility for his sin. His union with Christ could be largely
nullified. But the Scripture declares every believer to be a “new man” in
union with Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). This is the reality of the definitive aspect of
sanctification. See Questions 94–95.


What, then, is the source of the believer’s struggle with sin in his life? It is
not the “old man” or the “old nature,” but rather a principle of indwelling sin
and remaining corruption that expresses itself in acts of sin. It has been
traditional on the part of many to refer to this reality of indwelling sin and
remaining corruption as the “old nature.”

Mark carefully Rom. 6:15–8:15 and closely note the following realities:
first, the statement of Romans Chapter seven ends, not at 7:25, but at 8:16.
The idea, therefore of “getting out of Romans Chapter Seven and into
Romans Chapter Eight” is based on a misunderstanding of this passage.

Second, chapter and verse divisions are not inspired. The passage ends on a
note of victory through the enabling grace of the Spirit, not in defeat.

Third, the Apostle has waited until chapter eight to discuss the reality and power of
the Holy Spirit in the believer’s life. The entire section, which reveals the
believer’s relation to the law, extends from 6:15 to 8:9. Fourth, Romans 7:14–
25 is, we believe, the statement of a mature believer who is horribly conscious
of all and any indwelling sin and remaining corruption. When held before the
absolute standard of the law, he is the very epitome of weakness and
inconsistency, or “carnal” [lit: “made of flesh”].


Fifth, he makes a very clear distinction between “I” or himself and the “sin that dwelleth in me,” not the
“old man” or the “old nature.” Finally, his strength and hope of victory lie in
the grace or power of the Holy Spirit, which enables him to conform in
principle to the righteous demands of the Moral Law (Rom. 8:1–16). Has the
reigning power of sin been broken in your life?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Funny that the Spurgeon quote gets ignored, isn't it?

 

[Yeshua1]

Funny that the Spurgeon quote gets ignored, isn't it?

Guess that ome would not see him as being "calvinistic enough!"

 

[Yeshua1]

Icon,
I thought you believed in the Baptist Catechism and Commentary that you quoted from. It disagrees with you.

Note how it describes chapter seven as a believer who is "the epitome of weakness and inconsistency or "carnal" (lit. of the flesh).
--This goes entirely against what you have been posting.

Why would we decide to quote and use ANYCommentary/Catechism though to answer the OP< being baptists, shoudn't we JUST use the scriptures for ultimate answers source?

 

[DHK]

You would have to understand what is written as it is written DHK...not cherry pick it...post the whole portion I posted and it exposes your incorrect teaching..I will post it again in total so those who read will see what you did here.

I read all of it Icon. The last two paragraphs (starting with "Third" and "Fifth") go directly against what you believe and have expressed on this board. It is time for you to read it carefully, and with some understanding instead of just blindly posting it on this board. Don't post what you don't believe, and then hypocritically say "This is what I believe." You don't believe it.

 

[JeremyV]

Romans chapter 7 is not Paul speaking of himself as a Christian, but an unregenerate man under the law.

The problem with this interpretation is this:

"I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:" (Romans 7:21-22)

Paul is describing the condition of a man when his inward self delights in the law of God. This cannot describe an unregenerate man.

Instead we are left with the picture of a person who has received the gift of salvation but continues to sin. This is the case for all Christians. In this chapter Paul explains why this is which can be summed up in verse 17:

"Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

While evil is present with us and in us, we are separate from it, "...it is no more I...but sin..." After salvation, our sin nature becomes to us like a cancerous tumor. It is not a part of us but it is in us. Until we have the surgery to remove it, we must deal with it, taking treatments that shrink it. From time to time it will start to spread again and try to take over our body, but we have the assurance that this will not happen.

Why would we decide to quote and use ANYCommentary/Catechism though to answer the OP< being baptists, shoudn't we JUST use the scriptures for ultimate answers source?

Amen!

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Guess that ome would not see him as being "calvinistic enough!"

More likely they haven't been able to pick their jaw up off the floor to get it out of the way of their keyboard. The can't deal with the fact a "hero of the Calvinists" believes the old nature remains after salvation.

 

[Iconoclast]

I read all of it Icon. The last two paragraphs (starting with "Third" and "Fifth") go directly against what you believe and have expressed on this board. It is time for you to read it carefully, and with some understanding instead of just blindly posting it on this board. Don't post what you don't believe, and then hypocritically say "This is what I believe." You don't believe it.

Hey DHK......here is a news flash......it is written by the Pastor who preached the carnal Christian heresy message I offered you....lol

I know what he teaches and why very well....lol...you still have not listened have you.....better still call him in person and tell him your theories. .....just record the phone call so we can hear how you straighten it all out.

 

[Iconoclast]

Funny that the Spurgeon quote gets ignored, isn't it?

When Spurgeon preached the sermon this false teaching did not exist so the language he used was not specific. If you read the quote in post 11 it destroys your false teaching that you embrace with Dhk.....

I like how your kind like to try and say Spurgeon was not a calvinist....pick out things he said in his day and try to squeeze them into modern times...


the one new nature we have is in the old body...which still has what Paul describes as the motions of sin in it. That is why we are mortifying the deeds of the body......not an old nature which was Co crucified with Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Why would we decide to quote and use ANYCommentary/Catechism though to answer the OP< being baptists, shoudn't we JUST use the scriptures for ultimate answers source?

Really......why then do you disappear when Kyred or Bosley ask you to post any scripture to support your statements......you disappeared on two other threads be cause you were asked to post scripture....which according to you is what baptists are supposed to do....
.Wait...let me check with Kyred to see if you ever have posted any scripture at all.

now I remember. ..you used the term Sola scriptura...I asked you define it...you really did not except to repeat the bible alone......I asked if it was a. Bible term....or did it come from the 5 Solas of the reformation written by men who were all confessional men......all who believed the scripture alone is the rule of faith and practice....
that's when you went away without a response...

who knows...maybe something came up?
So you can post your scriptural laden response right here!!!