Do We Receive Faith?

[Van]

Van,

Your response has officially degenerated into total logical panic. You are contradicting yourself in back-to-back sentences, evading plain Greek vocabulary, and running away from the text because your timeline has completely shattered.
Let the forum look closely at how your own words just dismantled your own theology:


1. Your Blatant, Back-to-Back Self-Contradiction

Look at what you just wrote, Van. It is a masterpiece of internal confusion:

• In point 1, you write: "...falsely claiming the word's usage includes granting or allowing something."
• In point 2, you write: "LOL, granted is a vague term... it can refer to giving someone something they did not possess beforehand."

Van, you are arguing with your own shadow. You accuse me of a "false claim" for saying the text means a gift was granted, and then in the very next breath, you admit the word can mean "giving someone something they did not possess beforehand."

You have just conceded the entire argument. If God is giving the sinner faith that they did not possess beforehand, then faith is an active, sovereign gift bestowed by God, not an autonomous human work manufactured by man's free will. You have effectively refuted your own Arminian system.

2. The Absurdity of Your "Passive Permission" Fallacy

You attempt to rescue your position by claiming that "granted to believe" merely means God allowed someone to believe by simply refraining from hardening their heart.

This is a total logical failure. The Greek word is ἐχαρίσθη (echaristhē), which means to actively, graciously bestow a gift. If a governor grants a pardon to a prisoner, does that mean the governor merely "abstained from executing him," or did he issue an active, positive legal decree?
Furthermore, you are still completely choking on the parallel of the verse. Paul hooks believing and suffering to the exact same verb. If "granted" only means "allowed by not hardening," then you must argue that God merely permits us to suffer by not stopping it, and that we must independently manufacture our own trials. It is a complete absurdity. As 1 Thessalonians 3:3 explicitly states, our sufferings are actively appointed and decreed (keimetha) by God. Because the suffering is an active sovereign appointment, the primary gift of believing on His name is a correspondingly active, sovereignly bestowed gift.

3. You Are Running From the Timeline of Ephesians 1:4

You claim you have explained Ephesians 1:4 dozens of times, yet you completely refused to address the unbending timeline I laid before you. You call historic theology the "dark ages" because you cannot answer a simple question of scriptural chronology.

Your core doctrine states: "we are chosen for salvation through faith, which requires we had some sort of faith BEFORE we were chosen."
Van, Ephesians 1:4 states that God chose His elect in Christ before the foundation of the world.

• Man did not exist.
• The earth did not exist.
• Human free will did not exist.

Explain to the forum right now how a non-existent human being can manufacture "some sort of faith" in eternity past before they even existed to be chosen. You can't answer it. Your system requires the fruit to create the root.

Scripture remains completely unshakeable against your synergy. We are elect unto (eis) obedience (1 Peter 1:2). In the Eternal Phase, God sovereignly chooses His remnant; in the Legal Phase, Christ pays their debt at the cross; in the Vital Phase, the Spirit immediately quickens them; and consequently, in the Practical Phase, they are given the gift of faith to believe on His name and suffer for His sake. Your own points have surrendered the debate, Van. Full stop.

---

This post folks is a totally "against the person" screed, one ad homenim after another. All misdirection, changing the subject to me and running from the topic.

The howling hounds of Calvinism like to disparage others, and make unsupported wild claims.

1) Is the Greek verb "tasso" used in the New Testament to refer to an agreement by mutual consent? Yes, I provided at least 6 examples.

2) Note God's word says individuals are chosen for salvation through "faith in the truth." Therefore they had "faith" before they were chosen for salvation. Full Stop.

3) Being chosen in Him refers to a corporate election of believers as the target group of God's redemption plan. God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, thus He corporately chose us in Him at the same time.

 

[David Lamb]

This post folks is a totally "against the person" screed, one ad homenim after another. All misdirection, changing the subject to me and running from the topic.

The howling hounds of Calvinism like to disparage others, and make unsupported wild claims.

Isn't that rather a sweeping generalisation? I believe Calvinist doctrines, and although I sometimes disagree with other posters, I hope I never disparage them, or resemble a "howling hound" in my posts. If ever I do, please let me know, ands I will apologise.

 

[Brightfame52]

Van,

Your attempt to escape into "corporate election" has landed you in a complete chronological nightmare. Let’s look at the absolute impossibility of your position and the wreckage of your arguments.

You write: "Being chosen in Him refers to a corporate election of believers as the target group of God's redemption plan. God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, thus He corporately chose us in Him at the same time."
Van, look closely at the timeline you just constructed. You claim God chose a corporate group consisting exclusively of "believers" before the foundation of the world.

Explain to the forum right now: How were they "believers" in eternity past before the creation of the world?
According to your Arminian theology, a person is only a believer when they hear the gospel in time, use their autonomous human free will, and actively choose to believe. But in eternity past:

• Man did not exist.
• Time did not exist.
• No one had ever heard a sermon.
• No one had exercised their free will.

If God chose them as a group of "believers" before the world began, then their status as believers was already a settled, guaranteed, unchanging reality in the mind of God before they were even born!

If their faith was already a certain fact in eternity past, then their faith was not an independent, conditional choice manufactured by their own free will in time. It was an entry in God's ledger before the foundation of the world. You are forcing non-existent people to execute free-will choices in eternity past to get themselves onto your corporate bus.
Let's address the rest of your points:

1. The Tassō Deception: Fleeing Your Own Source
   You claim you provided "at least 6 examples" of tassō meaning mutual consent. Van, you copy-pasted a lexical outline from the Blue Letter Bible that explicitly isolated that definition strictly for the Middle Voice (such as Acts 28:23). You were caught trying to force that highly specific middle-voice definition onto Acts 13:48 and Romans 13:1, both of which are explicitly Passive Voice. You haven't provided 6 examples; you have provided a masterclass in how to ignore basic grammatical voices. You still have not shown how a passive verb—where the subject is the helpless recipient of an outside action—can mean a "mutual handshake." Your private dictionary remains completely rejected by the actual text.
2. The Chronological Failure of 2 Thessalonians 2:13
   You point to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and declare: "Individuals are chosen for salvation through 'faith in the truth.' Therefore they had 'faith' before they were chosen for salvation." Van, this is a total crash in basic reading comprehension and scriptural timeline. The text says: "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."
   
   
   The word "through" denotes the means and sphere by which God executes His decree in time—it does not denote a historical condition that God looked forward to see. By your upside-down logic, if a man is chosen "through sanctification of the Spirit," he had to be sanctified by the Spirit before God chose him in eternity past! How can a person be sanctified by the Spirit and exercise faith before the foundation of the world when they did not even exist?
3. The Myth of "Corporate-Only" Election
   Your corporate theory is a complete grammatical and logical myth designed to rob God of His personal, particular love for His sheep. Ephesians 1:4 does not say God chose a vague "target group" or an empty abstract "corporation." It uses personal, plural pronouns: "He hath chosen US in him." The object of election is individual people collectively comprising the Bride of Christ. Furthermore, Acts 13:48 completely shatters your corporate illusion. Luke does not say "the corporate group believed." He uses the individualized quantifier: "as many as [ὅσοι] were ordained to eternal life believed." That is a mathematical, individual count. Particular numbers of specific men were stationed, and that identical, specific number of individuals believed.

The Five-Phase Framework of salvation completely resolves these texts without any of your logical loops:

• The Eternal Phase (Ephesians 1:4): God sovereignly chooses His remnant before time began. He did not choose them because they were believers; He chose them that they should be holy and without blame. Election is the cause of holiness, not the result of it.
• The Legal Phase: Christ successfully pays their debt at the cross, satisfying divine justice.
• The Vital Phase: The Holy Spirit immediately quickens them from spiritual death to life apart from human cooperation.
• The Practical Phase (Acts 13:48): Because they are vitally quickened, they are given the gift of faith and consequently believe.

They weren't chosen because they were believers, Van. They became believers because they were chosen. Stop running from the plain grammar of Scripture, drop the philosophical gymnastics, and submit to the sovereign, finished work of Jesus Christ.

 

[Van]

Isn't that rather a sweeping generalisation? I believe Calvinist doctrines, and although I sometimes disagree with other posters, I hope I never disparage them, or resemble a "howling hound" in my posts. If ever I do, please let me know, ands I will apologise.

Sorry for the perceived broad brush of disparagement, but since the shoe does not fit, no need for you to wear it.

 

[Van]

Van,

Your attempt to escape into "corporate election" has landed you in a complete chronological nightmare. Let’s look at the absolute impossibility of your position and the wreckage of your arguments.

You write: "Being chosen in Him refers to a corporate election of believers as the target group of God's redemption plan. God chose His Redeemer before the foundation of the world, thus He corporately chose us in Him at the same time."
Van, look closely at the timeline you just constructed. You claim God chose a corporate group consisting exclusively of "believers" before the foundation of the world.

Explain to the forum right now: How were they "believers" in eternity past before the creation of the world?
According to your Arminian theology, a person is only a believer when they hear the gospel in time, use their autonomous human free will, and actively choose to believe. But in eternity past:

• Man did not exist.
• Time did not exist.
• No one had ever heard a sermon.
• No one had exercised their free will.

If God chose them as a group of "believers" before the world began, then their status as believers was already a settled, guaranteed, unchanging reality in the mind of God before they were even born!

If their faith was already a certain fact in eternity past, then their faith was not an independent, conditional choice manufactured by their own free will in time. It was an entry in God's ledger before the foundation of the world. You are forcing non-existent people to execute free-will choices in eternity past to get themselves onto your corporate bus.
Let's address the rest of your points:

1. The Tassō Deception: Fleeing Your Own Source
   You claim you provided "at least 6 examples" of tassō meaning mutual consent. Van, you copy-pasted a lexical outline from the Blue Letter Bible that explicitly isolated that definition strictly for the Middle Voice (such as Acts 28:23). You were caught trying to force that highly specific middle-voice definition onto Acts 13:48 and Romans 13:1, both of which are explicitly Passive Voice. You haven't provided 6 examples; you have provided a masterclass in how to ignore basic grammatical voices. You still have not shown how a passive verb—where the subject is the helpless recipient of an outside action—can mean a "mutual handshake." Your private dictionary remains completely rejected by the actual text.
2. The Chronological Failure of 2 Thessalonians 2:13
   You point to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and declare: "Individuals are chosen for salvation through 'faith in the truth.' Therefore they had 'faith' before they were chosen for salvation." Van, this is a total crash in basic reading comprehension and scriptural timeline. The text says: "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth."
   
   
   The word "through" denotes the means and sphere by which God executes His decree in time—it does not denote a historical condition that God looked forward to see. By your upside-down logic, if a man is chosen "through sanctification of the Spirit," he had to be sanctified by the Spirit before God chose him in eternity past! How can a person be sanctified by the Spirit and exercise faith before the foundation of the world when they did not even exist?
3. The Myth of "Corporate-Only" Election
   Your corporate theory is a complete grammatical and logical myth designed to rob God of His personal, particular love for His sheep. Ephesians 1:4 does not say God chose a vague "target group" or an empty abstract "corporation." It uses personal, plural pronouns: "He hath chosen US in him." The object of election is individual people collectively comprising the Bride of Christ. Furthermore, Acts 13:48 completely shatters your corporate illusion. Luke does not say "the corporate group believed." He uses the individualized quantifier: "as many as [ὅσοι] were ordained to eternal life believed." That is a mathematical, individual count. Particular numbers of specific men were stationed, and that identical, specific number of individuals believed.

The Five-Phase Framework of salvation completely resolves these texts without any of your logical loops:

• The Eternal Phase (Ephesians 1:4): God sovereignly chooses His remnant before time began. He did not choose them because they were believers; He chose them that they should be holy and without blame. Election is the cause of holiness, not the result of it.
• The Legal Phase: Christ successfully pays their debt at the cross, satisfying divine justice.
• The Vital Phase: The Holy Spirit immediately quickens them from spiritual death to life apart from human cooperation.
• The Practical Phase (Acts 13:48): Because they are vitally quickened, they are given the gift of faith and consequently believe.

They weren't chosen because they were believers, Van. They became believers because they were chosen. Stop running from the plain grammar of Scripture, drop the philosophical gymnastics, and submit to the sovereign, finished work of Jesus Christ.

1) You ask, how were they believers before creation? It was the target group, not an existent group.

2) You ask, if their faith was certain? Again, only those in the target group of future believers, and not in the target group of existent believers.

3) Tasso's meaning of "an arrangement by mutual consent is NOT "explicitly isolated" to "middle voice. In every example, some NOT in the middle voice, someone or group presented an arrangement, and then one or others agreed
with it.

4) Next you seem unable to grasp that "from the foundation of the world" refers to the time period since creation to the end times still to come. Jesus confirmed this by indicating non-believers had killed the prophets sent by God since the foundation of the world.

5) Because God chose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, that means those chosen had some sort of faith BEFORE they were chosen.

6) Corporate Election is found throughout the Bible.

7) No one receives reconciliation until they are spiritually put into Christ's spirit.

8) Yes, when transferred into Christ, we are made alive, the washing of regeneration, together with Christ, and then indwelt, all within a "twinkling of an eye."

9) Again, you nullify 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and claim individuals were chosen NOT through faith, and you nullify 1 Peter 2:9-10 and claim the chosen individuals were NEVER not a people chosen for His own possession.

Folks, the evidence is in, the verdict is obvious, Calvinism does NOT pass the smell test.

 

[Brightfame52]

1) You ask, how were they believers before creation? It was the target group, not an existent group.

2) You ask, if their faith was certain? Again, only those in the target group of future believers, and not in the target group of existent believers.

3) Tasso's meaning of "an arrangement by mutual consent is NOT "explicitly isolated" to "middle voice. In every example, some NOT in the middle voice, someone or group presented an arrangement, and then one or others agreed
with it.

4) Next you seem unable to grasp that "from the foundation of the world" refers to the time period since creation to the end times still to come. Jesus confirmed this by indicating non-believers had killed the prophets sent by God since the foundation of the world.

5) Because God chose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, that means those chosen had some sort of faith BEFORE they were chosen.

6) Corporate Election is found throughout the Bible.

7) No one receives reconciliation until they are spiritually put into Christ's spirit.

8) Yes, when transferred into Christ, we are made alive, the washing of regeneration, together with Christ, and then indwelt, all within a "twinkling of an eye."

9) Again, you nullify 2 Thessalonians 2:13 and claim individuals were chosen NOT through faith, and you nullify 1 Peter 2:9-10 and claim the chosen individuals were NEVER not a people chosen for His own possession.

Folks, the evidence is in, the verdict is obvious, Calvinism does NOT pass the smell test.

Van,

Your response has officially descended from a defense of Arminianism into total theological and grammatical incoherence. You are inventing a private dictionary and rewording the text of Scripture because your system's timeline has completely shattered. Let's look at the absolute collapse of your 9 evasions.

1, 2, & 5. The Fatal Fallacy of the Non-Existent "Target Group"

Look at the impossible logical trap you just stepped into. In points 1 and 2, you admit that in eternity past, this corporate group was "not an existent group" but a "target group of future believers."

Yet, in point 5, you turn right around and double down on your error, stating: "Because God chose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, that means those chosen had some sort of faith BEFORE they were chosen."

Van, look at your own timeline! You admit they did not exist in eternity past when God chose them. How can a non-existent "target group" have "some sort of faith BEFORE they were chosen" in eternity past? Can a non-existent person exercise non-existent faith to get themselves into a non-existent group? You are trapped in a vicious chronological circle.

If they had no actual existence and no actual faith when God chose them, then God's choice was unconditional. He chose a group of individuals who had done absolutely nothing, possessed absolutely nothing, and believed absolutely nothing. You have just accidentally conceded Unconditional Election (Phase I).

3. Doubling Down on Lexical Illiteracy

You claim tassō as an "arrangement by mutual consent" is not isolated to the middle voice, asserting that in every example, someone presented an arrangement and others agreed.

Van, you are redefining the word "voice" because you don't understand how Greek works. When an active voice verb describes an authority issuing an assignment, or a passive voice describes a subject receiving an assignment, the subsequent compliance of the subordinate does not change the definition of the word tassō into "mutual agreement."

I challenged you to show how a passive voice verb (ēsan tetagmenoi in Acts 13:48 or tetagmenoi in Romans 13:1)—where the subject is purely acted upon by an outside agent—can mean a "mutual handshake." You failed. You cannot quote a single peer-reviewed Greek lexicon on earth that assigns a cooperative meaning to a passive periphrastic construction. You are hiding behind your own private lexicon.

4. The "Foundation of the World" Blunder

Your rewrite of the phrase "from the foundation of the world" (apo katabolēs kosmou) is a stunning biblical error. You claim it refers to the historical time period since creation, quoting Jesus' reference to the blood of the prophets shed since the foundation of the world (Luke 11:50).
Van, learn to read the prepositions. In Luke 11:50, the text uses apo (since/from). But in Ephesians 1:4, the text says God chose us πρὸ katabolēs kosmou—which means BEFORE the foundation of the world!

You are completely conflating the preposition apo (since) with pro (before). Paul is explicitly declaring that election occurred prior to creation, in the council of eternity past (The Eternal Phase). Trying to turn a text that says "before creation" into a timeline that happens "after creation" is a desperate act of textual manipulation.

6. The "Empty Bus" Corporate Myth

You assert corporate election is throughout the Bible. You still cannot answer the individualized tracking of the text. A corporation cannot exist without individual constituents. Ephesians 1:4 says He chose "us" (personal pronoun), and Acts 13:48 states "as many as [ὅσοι]" were ordained believed. Hosoi is a term of specific, individual measurement. God did not elect an empty target group; He elected particular individuals to be holy.

7, 8, & 9. The Quickening Paradox

In points 7 and 8, you describe a simultaneous event in the "twinkling of an eye": being put into Christ, made alive, the washing of regeneration, and indwelling.

You are completely missing the logical sequence. In point 9, you accuse me of nullifying 1 Peter 2:9-10 by claiming the elect were "never not a people."
Van, look at the Five Phases to see why your timeline is in chaos:

• Phase I (Eternal): Legally and covenantally, the elect were always God's people in His eternal decree.
• Phase III (Vital): Experientially in time, they are born into this world dead in trespasses and sins, existing practically as children of wrath even as others (Ephesians 2:3), until the Holy Spirit sovereignly quickens them.

Life must logically precede action. A dead soul cannot exercise faith to get into the spirit. The Spirit must move monergistically to quicken the dead soul so that the soul can practically believe.

Conclusion: The Verdict on Synergy


Van, your verdict is in, and it is a total grammatical and logical failure. Your system forces you to:

1. Conflate "before creation" with "after creation."
2. Claim non-existent people had "faith" before they existed.
3. Reject standard dictionary definitions of passive verbs.

You can shout about Calvinism all you want, but you cannot rescue your shattered timeline. God’s sovereign election stands firm before time, Christ's blood was completely successful at the cross, and His people believe in time because they were ordained to life. Full stop.

---

 

[Van]

Van,

Your response has officially descended from a defense of Arminianism into total theological and grammatical incoherence. You are inventing a private dictionary and rewording the text of Scripture because your system's timeline has completely shattered. Let's look at the absolute collapse of your 9 evasions.

1, 2, & 5. The Fatal Fallacy of the Non-Existent "Target Group"

Look at the impossible logical trap you just stepped into. In points 1 and 2, you admit that in eternity past, this corporate group was "not an existent group" but a "target group of future believers."

Yet, in point 5, you turn right around and double down on your error, stating: "Because God chose individuals for salvation through faith in the truth, that means those chosen had some sort of faith BEFORE they were chosen."

Van, look at your own timeline! You admit they did not exist in eternity past when God chose them. How can a non-existent "target group" have "some sort of faith BEFORE they were chosen" in eternity past? Can a non-existent person exercise non-existent faith to get themselves into a non-existent group? You are trapped in a vicious chronological circle.

If they had no actual existence and no actual faith when God chose them, then God's choice was unconditional. He chose a group of individuals who had done absolutely nothing, possessed absolutely nothing, and believed absolutely nothing. You have just accidentally conceded Unconditional Election (Phase I).

3. Doubling Down on Lexical Illiteracy

You claim tassō as an "arrangement by mutual consent" is not isolated to the middle voice, asserting that in every example, someone presented an arrangement and others agreed.

Van, you are redefining the word "voice" because you don't understand how Greek works. When an active voice verb describes an authority issuing an assignment, or a passive voice describes a subject receiving an assignment, the subsequent compliance of the subordinate does not change the definition of the word tassō into "mutual agreement."

I challenged you to show how a passive voice verb (ēsan tetagmenoi in Acts 13:48 or tetagmenoi in Romans 13:1)—where the subject is purely acted upon by an outside agent—can mean a "mutual handshake." You failed. You cannot quote a single peer-reviewed Greek lexicon on earth that assigns a cooperative meaning to a passive periphrastic construction. You are hiding behind your own private lexicon.

4. The "Foundation of the World" Blunder

Your rewrite of the phrase "from the foundation of the world" (apo katabolēs kosmou) is a stunning biblical error. You claim it refers to the historical time period since creation, quoting Jesus' reference to the blood of the prophets shed since the foundation of the world (Luke 11:50).
Van, learn to read the prepositions. In Luke 11:50, the text uses apo (since/from). But in Ephesians 1:4, the text says God chose us πρὸ katabolēs kosmou—which means BEFORE the foundation of the world!

You are completely conflating the preposition apo (since) with pro (before). Paul is explicitly declaring that election occurred prior to creation, in the council of eternity past (The Eternal Phase). Trying to turn a text that says "before creation" into a timeline that happens "after creation" is a desperate act of textual manipulation.

6. The "Empty Bus" Corporate Myth

You assert corporate election is throughout the Bible. You still cannot answer the individualized tracking of the text. A corporation cannot exist without individual constituents. Ephesians 1:4 says He chose "us" (personal pronoun), and Acts 13:48 states "as many as [ὅσοι]" were ordained believed. Hosoi is a term of specific, individual measurement. God did not elect an empty target group; He elected particular individuals to be holy.

7, 8, & 9. The Quickening Paradox

In points 7 and 8, you describe a simultaneous event in the "twinkling of an eye": being put into Christ, made alive, the washing of regeneration, and indwelling.

You are completely missing the logical sequence. In point 9, you accuse me of nullifying 1 Peter 2:9-10 by claiming the elect were "never not a people."
Van, look at the Five Phases to see why your timeline is in chaos:

• Phase I (Eternal): Legally and covenantally, the elect were always God's people in His eternal decree.
• Phase III (Vital): Experientially in time, they are born into this world dead in trespasses and sins, existing practically as children of wrath even as others (Ephesians 2:3), until the Holy Spirit sovereignly quickens them.

Life must logically precede action. A dead soul cannot exercise faith to get into the spirit. The Spirit must move monergistically to quicken the dead soul so that the soul can practically believe.

Conclusion: The Verdict on Synergy


Van, your verdict is in, and it is a total grammatical and logical failure. Your system forces you to:

1. Conflate "before creation" with "after creation."
2. Claim non-existent people had "faith" before they existed.
3. Reject standard dictionary definitions of passive verbs.

You can shout about Calvinism all you want, but you cannot rescue your shattered timeline. God’s sovereign election stands firm before time, Christ's blood was completely successful at the cross, and His people believe in time because they were ordained to life. Full stop.

---

1) The fact I am NOT an Arminian should cause you to realize your grasp of reality is non-existent.

2) The fact that Calvinism has invented a private library of word meanings, i.e. granted means compelled, should cause you to realize your grasp of reality is non-existent.

3) Dr. Wallace has published that "corporate elections" are found through-out the bible.

4) The complete ignorance of your understanding of corporate election is demonstrated by your reference to them, as individuals. Good Grief.

5) Yes, if someone is chosen "through faith" that means their faith existed before being chosen. This is not rocket science.

6) And there he goes again, now an active voice requires no reaction. If I say run, that means those that receive the message cannot run by themselves, they must be compelled by irresistible grace. Folks, Calvinism's defense by this poster is absurd.

7) And yet another deflection, from the foundation of the world refers to the time period since creation to end times. This is true. That is why the names of those chosen are written from the foundation of the world, and NOT before the the foundation of the world.

8) Next the sheer idiocy of your argument shines bright, when you claim a corporate election is comprised o individuals. A corporate group is comprised of a shared characteristic, such as God's redemption plan is for "believers."

9) More sheer idiocy, the "us" in Ephesians 1:4 refers to individuals chosen individually during their lifetime. But as members of the corporate target group, i.e. believers, they were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

10) Last point, where you once again create your own definition, where you can be "NOT" a people while actually being a people. Fiddlesticks

 

[Van]

When do we receive faith like that of Abraham? His faith was credited as righteousness, so when and if our faith is credited as righteousness, we receive a faith like Abraham's! This is NOT rocket science.

 

[Van]

Quiz for all the Calvinists: When you were chosen for salvation, had you been children of wrath, or were you already chosen when you came into existence? The true answer is they believe they had been individually chosen before they existed, and were never actually children of wrath.

I hope someone notices that verse after verse is said not to mean what is says, but must be rewritten to conform to Calvinism.

Being chosen through faith after going through Calvinism's sausage making machine, actually means chosen NOT through faith, but chosen without faith, then given faith. I kid you not.

 

[Brightfame52]

1) The fact I am NOT an Arminian should cause you to realize your grasp of reality is non-existent.

2) The fact that Calvinism has invented a private library of word meanings, i.e. granted means compelled, should cause you to realize your grasp of reality is non-existent.

3) Dr. Wallace has published that "corporate elections" are found through-out the bible.

4) The complete ignorance of your understanding of corporate election is demonstrated by your reference to them, as individuals. Good Grief.

5) Yes, if someone is chosen "through faith" that means their faith existed before being chosen. This is not rocket science.

6) And there he goes again, now an active voice requires no reaction. If I say run, that means those that receive the message cannot run by themselves, they must be compelled by irresistible grace. Folks, Calvinism's defense by this poster is absurd.

7) And yet another deflection, from the foundation of the world refers to the time period since creation to end times. This is true. That is why the names of those chosen are written from the foundation of the world, and NOT before the the foundation of the world.

8) Next the sheer idiocy of your argument shines bright, when you claim a corporate election is comprised o individuals. A corporate group is comprised of a shared characteristic, such as God's redemption plan is for "believers."

9) More sheer idiocy, the "us" in Ephesians 1:4 refers to individuals chosen individually during their lifetime. But as members of the corporate target group, i.e. believers, they were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world.

10) Last point, where you once again create your own definition, where you can be "NOT" a people while actually being a people. Fiddlesticks

Van,

Your 10 points have reached a level of logical and textual panic that is embarrassing to read. You are actively contradicting yourself in the very same post, inventing false claims about scholars, and throwing out insults because the grammar of the Holy Spirit has utterly demolished your system. Let’s expose the absolute wreckage of your 10 evasions.

1 & 2. Labels Don't Hide False Theology

You claim you are not an Arminian. Van, I don't care what label you want to hide behind; if you teach that salvation is conditional upon a human free-will choice that man manufactures independently, you are a synergist. Your theology puts the crown on man's head, not Christ's.

3 & 4. The Scholar Bluff Called: Exposing Your Dr. Wallace Myth

You write: "Dr. Wallace has published that 'corporate elections' are found through-out the bible."

Van, this is a flat-out textual fabrication. Dr. Daniel Wallace is a strict, historical Calvinist who holds firmly to Particular, Unconditional, Individual Election. In his textbook Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics (the very book you are trying to hide behind), he explicitly states that election is individual and particular. Do not invoke the name of a world-renowned Reformed Greek scholar to defend your synergistic "corporate target group" myth. He would reject your theology in a heartbeat.

5, 8, & 9. The Ultimate Self-Contradiction: Your System Destroys Itself

Look at the absolute logical catastrophe you just posted. Let the forum read your back-to-back points and see your theology completely implode:

• In Point 5, you write: "Yes, if someone is chosen 'through faith' that means their faith existed before being chosen."
• In Point 9, you write: "they were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world."

Van, look at your own timeline! If their faith had to exist BEFORE they were chosen, and they were chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world, then you are forcing non-existent people to possess actual faith in eternity past before the world was even created!

How can faith exist inside a person who does not exist? You realize this is an impossible absurdity, so you try to rescue it in Point 8 by saying a corporate group is comprised strictly of a "shared characteristic."

Van, an abstract "characteristic" cannot execute the active verb of believing. A category cannot have faith. Only individual minds can believe. If God chose a corporate group of individual "believers" before the foundation of the world, then the identity of every single individual inside that group was eternally fixed and certain before creation. If it was fixed, it was unconditional. Your timeline is a broken circle.

6. Still Choking on Basic Greek Voice

You claim that I think an active voice verb requires no reaction, mocking my use of command structures.

Van, you are evading again. My point was never about whether there is a reaction; my point was about lexical definition. When an authority issues a command (Active Voice), and a subordinate obeys, the word for command does not suddenly mean "mutual negotiation" or "handshake" in the dictionary.

In Acts 13:48, the verb is Passive Voice (ēsan tetagmenoi). The subject is purely the recipient of the stationing. You have still failed to produce a single peer-reviewed lexicon that defines a passive periphrastic construction of tassō as a "cooperative handshake." Man did the believing; God did the stationing.

7. The Preposition Defeat: Fleeing Ephesians 1:4

You are running for your life from Ephesians 1:4. You try to pivot to Revelation by saying the names are written from (apo) the foundation of the world.

Van, look at the text I pinned you with: Ephesians 1:4 explicitly states that God chose us πρὸ (pro) katabolēs kosmou—which means BEFORE the foundation of the world.

You cannot use a verse in Revelation that uses apo (since) to erase a verse in Ephesians that uses pro (before). Paul explicitly places the act of individual election prior to creation. Your attempt to drag election into a historical time period after creation is a direct violation of the literal text.

10. The Total Blindness to Covenant Identity

You mock the idea of being "not a people" while being a people, calling it "fiddlesticks."

Van, you are mocking the explicit words of the Apostle Peter. In 1 Peter 2:10, speaking to the elect remnant, he writes: "Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God."

How were they "not a people" in time past? Because experientially and practically, they were born into this world as fallen children of wrath, walking in darkness (The Practical Phase). But how were they chosen from eternity? As a chosen generation and a holy nation in God's eternal decree (The Eternal Phase).

Because you don't have a multi-phase framework, you are forced to collapse all of scripture into a chaotic "twinkling of an eye" timeline where dead corpses must believe in order to be made alive, and non-existent entities must possess faith before the creation of the universe.

The Final Verdict

The evidence is in, and your defense has completely dissolved into insults and frantic self-contradictions.

• You claim faith must exist before choice, yet you claim the choice happened before creation.
• You claim corporate election isn't about individuals, yet you claim the "us" in Ephesians means individuals.

You are arguing against your own typewriter, Van. The Five-Phase framework stands completely unshakeable: God individual-elected His people before time began, Christ legally secured them at the cross, and the Spirit vitally quickens them in time so that they practically believe the truth. Your synergy is dead.