Do you agree with these statements?

[ReformedBaptist]

“This I stated in the interest of free will. God is its helper whenever it chooses good; man, however, when sinning is himself in fault, as under the direction of a free will.”

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect,” (Matthew 5:48), imply “the ability on the part of the hearer to obey the commandment.”

1) Adam’s sin affected himself alone.
2) Infants are born in the same moral state in which Adam was created.
3) Every man possesses ability to sin or to repent and obey whenever he will. 4) Responsibility is in exact proportion to ability; and God’s demands are adjusted to the various capacities (moral as well as constitutional) and circumstances of men

 

[annsni]

Other than the Bible verse - ummm, nope.

 

[Palatka51]

Other than the Bible verse - ummm, nope.

I agree with my Christian sister on this thread. :laugh:

 

[Tom Butler]

I'm with Ann.

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect,” (Matthew 5:48), imply “the ability on the part of the hearer to obey the commandment.”

Actually, it not only does not imply ability, it also explicitly means the opposite.

We have scripture and our own experience that we cannot be perfect. We do not have the ability to be so. It is contrary to our nature to be so. And we willingly sin. Oh, we may earnestly desire to be so, we may will it strongly and incessantly. But, just as a wheelchair-bound man may will to get out of the wheelchair, he does not possess the ability, no do we . Further, someone may command him to do so. But he cannot.

Jesus' command to be perfect, therefore, cannot imply the ability to do so.

Well, that ain't fair, one might say. How can one be held responsible for failing to do what he is unable to do? Ah, that's a whole 'nother thread. Just be grateful that God isn't fair.

 

[DreamSlayer]

1) Adam’s sin affected himself alone.
2) Infants are born in the same moral state in which Adam was created.
3) Every man possesses ability to sin or to repent and obey whenever he will.
4) Responsibility is in exact proportion to ability; and God’s demands are adjusted to the various capacities (moral as well as constitutional) and circumstances of men

1) The Bible clearly states that Adam's sin had some sort of effect on the rest of us.
2) Is an assumption
3) If you are implying, by what you have posted “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect,” (Matthew 5:48), imply “the ability on the part of the hearer to obey the commandment.” Then, I am wondering if you believe if it is possible for an individual to always choose to be 'good' and/or 'righteous', thus never sinning?

I also would disagree.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

1) The Bible clearly states that Adam's sin had some sort of effect on the rest of us.
2) Is an assumption
3) If you are implying, by what you have posted “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect,” (Matthew 5:48), imply “the ability on the part of the hearer to obey the commandment.” Then, I am wondering if you believe if it is possible for an individual to always choose to be 'good' and/or 'righteous', thus never sinning?

I also would disagree.

Hopefully it did not come accross that I agree with the statements in my OP. I don't. But your questions on the 4th point, for the one who does believe that, the answer is yes, they would believe that a person always choosing the good could possibly never sin in their life.

 

[annsni]

Where did you get the statements from?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Where did you get the statements from?

The quotes are Pelagius. The points 1-4 are Unitarian built on Pelagian theology.

 

[annsni]

The quotes are Pelagius. The points 1-4 are Unitarian built on Pelagian theology.

Ahhhh - gotcha.

 

[Me4Him]

“Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect,” (Matthew 5:48), imply “the ability on the part of the hearer to obey the commandment.”

Would God "command" that we do the "impossible"??

And what is the only way we can become "Sinless" and considered "Righteous" in the sight of God???

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

1) Adam’s sin affected himself alone.

After becoming a sinner, Adam could only produce children "After his own kind", "Flesh and blood" which can't inherit heaven.

Souls aren't condemned with the "flesh".

2) Infants are born in the same moral state in which Adam was created.

Infants don't posses the "knowlege of Good/Evil", their eyes (mind) must be opened to this knowledge before being held accountable.

Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

3) Every man possesses ability to sin or to repent and obey whenever he will. 4)

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Responsibility is in exact proportion to ability; and God’s demands are adjusted to the various capacities (moral as well as constitutional) and circumstances of men

I'm not exactly sure what you're refering to here, care to elaborate??

 

[ReformedBaptist]

Would God "command" that we do the "impossible"??

And what is the only way we can become "Sinless" and considered "Righteous" in the sight of God???

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:





After becoming a sinner, Adam could only produce children "After his own kind", "Flesh and blood" which can't inherit heaven.

Souls aren't condemned with the "flesh".




Infants don't posses the "knowlege of Good/Evil", their eyes (mind) must be opened to this knowledge before being held accountable.

Ge 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Joh 9:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.






Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?



I'm not exactly sure what you're refering to here, care to elaborate??

First of all, it seems you agree with the statements, except so far with the one your asking questions on. Hopefully you didn't miss the point that this teaching is that of Pelagus and the Unitarian church.

To clarify, point 4 means that a person is only responible for what they have an ability for. ie. God tells me to repent. If I am unable to repent, then I am not responsible to repent. If I am able, then I am responsible.

 

[Me4Him]

First of all, it seems you agree with the statements, except so far with the one your asking questions on. Hopefully you didn't miss the point that this teaching is that of Pelagus and the Unitarian church.

Since I don't read Pelagus or Unitarian doctrine, I don't know what they believe, but most doctrines have some agreement on certain points and disagreement on others,

So, I'm not "surprised" some points of scripture "cross paths".

To clarify, point 4 means that a person is only responible for what they have an ability for. ie. God tells me to repent. If I am unable to repent, then I am not responsible to repent. If I am able, then I am responsible.

The law was given that we might "KNOW" Good from Evil, but whether we chose to repent of sin or continue in sin is a "CHOICE" God left up to us,

Adam was given a choice to go into sin, we're given the choice to come out of sin, through "FAITH" in Jesus.

God only "CALLS" for us to repent, he doesn't "Force" repentance from anyone, God's "will" is that all repent, but God's "WILL" isn't always "obeyed".

Time again in the OT you'll find that the future prophesied by God was changed by the people who chose to disobey God's instructions,

They perished, not because of "God's will", but their own will to remain in sin and not repent/obey.

And nothing has changed, it's the same today.

 

[Marcia]

The quotes are Pelagius. The points 1-4 are Unitarian built on Pelagian theology.

These points (especially Adam's sin did not affect us and babies are born without a sin nature) have been and are argued by some in the Other Christian Denominations forum.

What do you mean by Unitarian doctrine? I thought they had no doctrine.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

These points (especially Adam's sin did not affect us and babies are born without a sin nature) have been and are argued by some in the Other Christian Denominations forum.

What do you mean by Unitarian doctrine? I thought they had no doctrine.

Unitarians have doctrine/teaching. They have to believe something. lol

 

[Marcia]

Unitarians have doctrine/teaching. They have to believe something. lol

Can you give a source for this? I used to attend Unitarian churches before I was a believer. One of their "doctrines" is that they have no doctrine. They admit to certain principles and "beliefs" but will not use the word "doctrine," as far as I know.

The Unitarians started as a reaction against the Trinitarian belief in God; hence, the name "Unitarian." You may know that, but I find that a number of Christains have no idea how the Unitarians started or what they believe. The reason this comes up for me is because when I speak on the New Age, I talk about the Unity church, and Christians seems to think Unity and Unitarian are the same.

The Unitarians have evolved over the years since they started (which I think was in the 1700s or late 1600s) and now tend to be very environmentally and social justice oriented, as well as accepting of some who are Pagan and New Age in their midst. They joined with the Universalist Church back in the 50s or 60s.

 

[Marcia]

Here is a statement from the official UUA site (Unitarian Universalist Association, which speaks for the Unitarian churches):

Unitarian Universalism is a liberal religion that encompasses many faith traditions. Unitarian Universalists include people who identify as Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Pagans, Atheists, Agnostics, Humanists, and others. As there is no official Unitarian Universalist creed, Unitarian Universalists are free to search for truth on many paths.

http://uua.org/visitors/beliefswithin/index.shtml

 

[Rippon]

Even Buddhism has distinctive doctrines. I am sure that if somone held to Trinitarianism within the ranks of Unitarianism it would go against the beliefs of that sect.

While on the subject, many independent, Fundamentalist, Baptist churches are against creedalism but have nonetheless a body of doctrine -- even if not in written form.

 

[annsni]

Marcia - From that site you listed, they state:

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Unitarian Universalism (UU) draws from many sources:

* Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
* Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
* Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
* Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
* Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
* Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

These principles and sources of faith are the backbone of our religious community.

While not a "creed", it does look like some sort of "doctrine".

Webster defines doctrine as "That which is taught; what is held, put forth as true, and supported by a teacher, a school, or a sect; a principle or position, or the body of principles, in any branch of knowledge; any tenet or dogma; a principle of faith; as, the doctrine of atoms; the doctrine of chances."

 

[Marcia]

Marcia - From that site you listed, they state:

There are seven principles which Unitarian Universalist congregations affirm and promote:

* The inherent worth and dignity of every person;
* Justice, equity and compassion in human relations;
* Acceptance of one another and encouragement to spiritual growth in our congregations;
* A free and responsible search for truth and meaning;
* The right of conscience and the use of the democratic process within our congregations and in society at large;
* The goal of world community with peace, liberty, and justice for all;
* Respect for the interdependent web of all existence of which we are a part.

Unitarian Universalism (UU) draws from many sources:

* Direct experience of that transcending mystery and wonder, affirmed in all cultures, which moves us to a renewal of the spirit and an openness to the forces which create and uphold life;
* Words and deeds of prophetic women and men which challenge us to confront powers and structures of evil with justice, compassion, and the transforming power of love;
* Wisdom from the world's religions which inspires us in our ethical and spiritual life;
* Jewish and Christian teachings which call us to respond to God's love by loving our neighbors as ourselves;
* Humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science, and warn us against idolatries of the mind and spirit.
* Spiritual teachings of earth-centered traditions which celebrate the sacred circle of life and instruct us to live in harmony with the rhythms of nature.

These principles and sources of faith are the backbone of our religious community.

While not a "creed", it does look like some sort of "doctrine".

Webster defines doctrine as "That which is taught; what is held, put forth as true, and supported by a teacher, a school, or a sect; a principle or position, or the body of principles, in any branch of knowledge; any tenet or dogma; a principle of faith; as, the doctrine of atoms; the doctrine of chances."

I know what you are saying and see your point, but the fact remains that the Unitarian-Universalists say they have no doctrine. They do have these prinicples but it is very loose - you can be in a Unitarian church and be Buddhist, agnostic, atheist, New Age, NeoPagan, Hindu, Bahai, even Christian (though I can't see a born-again person being there for any good reason) or at least professing Christian (though Unitarians denied the Trinity in their origin they don't have specific teachings now addressing it - it's a non-issue, just as God is).

They have less formal "doctrine" (if one insists on calling it that) than any organized church or religion I know of. This is very different from statements of faith you find in Christian churches or lists of beliefs in the LDS church, Buddhism, etc. Even Unity is more restrictive than the Unitarian church.