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Do you raise YOUR Children this way?
- Thread starter Dale-c
- Start date
Brother Bob
New Member
Attack, attack, attack: enough already!!
So, even if you don't believe there is a God, and you are a complete atheist, no faith whatsoever. WoW! you are saved!!!!, in
an instant with no knowledge it was taking place. You are the dumbest of the dumb, the deadest of the dead, but WoW!, you
are saved. That sure makes a lot of sense for the preachers to go throughout the whole world and preach "repent and turn
from your sins and believe in Jesus Christ and receive Salvation". What a waste of time for those preachers.
Men, raise up from their bar stool, push their prostitute away and say "I am saved".
The adulterer, gets up and says, "I am saved".
The murderer makes his kill and as he is leaving says, "I am saved"
No, climbing up on rooftops and lowering the sick down to the Saviour.
No, suffering and turning to the Lord for Salvation.
No, Godly sorrow set up in the heart, which works repentance.
No, cleansing of the hands, or the inside so the outside becomes clean.
Nothing, just drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may or may not be saved.
unbelieveable. IMO
The question is that if God picks who and the time, what does preaching change in anyway. What do you have to offer say, my children. If they are the elect, they will come, if they are not and you persuade them to come, then they will be hypocrits on their way to hell. That is the theology of the Calvinist.
What have I said in this post that is wrong, please help me to understand?
Please give me a reason for preaching to even the elect who are out there, for they can not come until God adds them. I am at a lost here, can you help me understand.
7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything
but only God who gives the growth
So, even if you don't believe there is a God, and you are a complete atheist, no faith whatsoever. WoW! you are saved!!!!, in
an instant with no knowledge it was taking place. You are the dumbest of the dumb, the deadest of the dead, but WoW!, you
are saved. That sure makes a lot of sense for the preachers to go throughout the whole world and preach "repent and turn
from your sins and believe in Jesus Christ and receive Salvation". What a waste of time for those preachers.
Men, raise up from their bar stool, push their prostitute away and say "I am saved".
The adulterer, gets up and says, "I am saved".
The murderer makes his kill and as he is leaving says, "I am saved"
No, climbing up on rooftops and lowering the sick down to the Saviour.
No, suffering and turning to the Lord for Salvation.
No, Godly sorrow set up in the heart, which works repentance.
No, cleansing of the hands, or the inside so the outside becomes clean.
Nothing, just drink and be merry, for tomorrow you may or may not be saved.
unbelieveable. IMO
The question is that if God picks who and the time, what does preaching change in anyway. What do you have to offer say, my children. If they are the elect, they will come, if they are not and you persuade them to come, then they will be hypocrits on their way to hell. That is the theology of the Calvinist.
What have I said in this post that is wrong, please help me to understand?
Please give me a reason for preaching to even the elect who are out there, for they can not come until God adds them. I am at a lost here, can you help me understand.
7 So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything
but only God who gives the growth
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menageriekeeper
Active Member
Well, Bro Bob may have said it a little impatiently, but I have to agree.
You are young yet Dale, and your precious one is still a baby, but answer my question: When she spits her peas out, do you force them back into her mouth? Do you let her go hungry until she eats that which she hates? Do you try to disguise the hated green mush by mixing it with something more desirable?
Humans were created by God with intelligence to make choices. If He didn't want us to make choices then logically He should have created us without the ability!
You say that all who God has decided He will save, will come to Him. How will they come? Do they still not have to make the choice? Do you not remember a time in your own life when you had to make the choice? Can you really, truthfully say that you had no freedom to say no to the drawing of the Holy Spirit? Cause I can't. I remember the night I was very, very clearly though I was only 7. I knew, KNEW, at that moment I was being given a choice and that it was a choice only I could make.
Now when your precious little one gets older, she will have choices to make. If she makes the wrong one, will you not say "I can/will help you, but only if you let me"? If you think not, go talk to parents who have watched their precious ones slide into drug use and would love to help them back into becoming whole, but the child will not. This is the best example I can give of how God must feel when we, His precious creations, refuse the love He offers.
You are young yet Dale, and your precious one is still a baby, but answer my question: When she spits her peas out, do you force them back into her mouth? Do you let her go hungry until she eats that which she hates? Do you try to disguise the hated green mush by mixing it with something more desirable?
Humans were created by God with intelligence to make choices. If He didn't want us to make choices then logically He should have created us without the ability!
You say that all who God has decided He will save, will come to Him. How will they come? Do they still not have to make the choice? Do you not remember a time in your own life when you had to make the choice? Can you really, truthfully say that you had no freedom to say no to the drawing of the Holy Spirit? Cause I can't. I remember the night I was very, very clearly though I was only 7. I knew, KNEW, at that moment I was being given a choice and that it was a choice only I could make.
Now when your precious little one gets older, she will have choices to make. If she makes the wrong one, will you not say "I can/will help you, but only if you let me"? If you think not, go talk to parents who have watched their precious ones slide into drug use and would love to help them back into becoming whole, but the child will not. This is the best example I can give of how God must feel when we, His precious creations, refuse the love He offers.
Cindi, let me ask you this:
Do you believe that God can change a person's heart?
You and I as parents can't change our childrens heart to do right.
We can chasten them.
We can pick them up and carry them away before they fall down the stairs but we can't actually change their hearts.
God can.
Do you believe that God can change a person's heart?
You and I as parents can't change our childrens heart to do right.
We can chasten them.
We can pick them up and carry them away before they fall down the stairs but we can't actually change their hearts.
God can.
menageriekeeper said:
I don't think those are very good analogies.
I think Dale's question is a good one. I might put the question a little differently. Why is it that God loves sparrows so much that not even a single sparrow falls to the ground apart from God's will, yet God would back off His will when it comes to our eternal destiny -- preferring to leave our eternal destiny in our corrupted, sin-infested hands?
npetreley said:
1. This is hard saying, and so were many of the sayings of our Lord (John 6).
2. We need to learn from the failures of modernity. We cannot put everything in the bible and in life into simple mathetical equations and arrive at our answers.
3. Somethings, we will never figure out in this life.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Because, He who possesses the ultimate free will chooses to?
Brother Bob
New Member
I have heard all the arguments and explainations on Calvinism. It is insulting for you to say God gives us all a choice, but we wiil not choose Him because our hearts have not been changed. Then you say, God does the heart changing, so where does that leave the lost, nowhere but lost. Sugar coat it all you want, but in the end, Calvinism says you are either chose to Go to Heaven, or you were not chose before the foundation of the world. I don't care how many times you say that is not Calvinist theology, it does not change anything, for it is the Calvinist theology.
You also seem to love that word "dishonest".
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menageriekeeper
Active Member
Think not? Just a minute, my answer is found in the unconditional grace thread. I'll be right back.
Here ya go:
Baptistbeliever said:
Now you can't deny that Christ is God and you can't deny that Christ loved this young man. So how will YOU explain why Almighty God allowed this one He loved to go away without salvation?
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I know you have, I have been there.
Yes, it insults you and it insults me!
It insults the sinner, the creature. But it glorifies God, the creator!
No need for sugar here (although most use High Fructose Corn Syrup these days)
THat is what the Bible teaches.
Look it up in ROmans 9.
Lost to make their own CHOICES, to reject God, to follow the broad path to destructon as you and I would have done save the Grace of God.
I have never denied this. I have denied the lack of need for evangelism.
Just because God has elected certain people to salvation does not mean that He hasn't created a means to that end.
What I object to is you saying that calvinism says that men will be saved without repentence etc.
It does not. It teaches that men will choose God only after their hearts have been softened to the Gospel by God.
Brother Bob said:
1. Bob, I know you believe that man is born with a sinful nature. How you interpret that I do not really know.
2. I'm not setting out to convince you to become a Calvinist. But here me out.
a. Man in his sinful nature is not good or righteous and does not seek God (Rom. 3:10, 11). In fact, in such a state, man is hostile toward God and does not please God (Rom 8:7, 8).
b. Man's heart and understanding are darkened by sin. He therefore cannot think clearly about God.
3. God must overcome a rebellious heart, a darkened heart, so that man can come to him. That is all we mean by Calvinism at that point.
4. This is the plain meaning of those Romans texts.
menageriekeeper
Active Member
Why bother to repent if God is going to save you anyway? 
Brother Bob
New Member
Could you tell me why, do you think its because you in your mind put down the free willers?
TC;
And my question still remains, what can you do about it either way?
Look closely at this post of yours. First a big AMen! and then God does not "force" feed us, but "changes" our heart so all we got left is to "WAnt"! to obey Him. Why not just say it in a few words "God chose us, and left you out", or yes, God did "force feed" us.
Again, if you convince one who God has not changed his heart, then he is a hypocrit, going to hell.
Tell me, what can you do to help or hinder. Do you think God needs you to do that which He has already done according to you. That makes no sense at all.
You are mostly the one making all these post, and they are designed to bring out the heat in the non-cal, for they are a mockery of them. So do not be surprised when enough is enough and we gently explain ourselves............
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Because God ISN"T going to save you anyway.
Don't you see?
The fact that you believed and repented was because of God's regenerating power in your heart.
Just because God has created an end does not mean that that end will happen with out the means that He has ordained.
See, God not only predestined you to eternal life, He predestined you to regerneration and to soften your heart to the Gospel.
It was part of His plan to bring whoever it was into your life to share the Gospel with you. It was all pat of God's will for your life.