Do you REALLY understand 1 John 2:2?

Cassidy, I have dealt with this verse elsewhere. Even one of your own, who is a greater authority on Calvinism, has plainly said that 1 John 2:2, does NOT refer to the elect. Look at Dr Robert Dabney on this very text, Systematic Theology, p.525. If you don't have access to Dabney, I would be glad to post his exact words here.

One point I will mention here. This phrase, "the whole world" is used twice by John in this Epistle. Here in 2:2, and also in 5:19, where he says: "And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness". Does this also refer to "the elect". Further, the Greek Lexicons of Ardnt and Gingrich, Thayer, Robinson, Abbot-Smith, Kittle, Cremer, Parkhurst, all say that "kosmos" at this place means "the human race, or mankind". Are all of these Greek authorities wrong? Do you set yourself up as a higher authority on Greek than these men?

Come on Cassidy, lets play it fair.

 

So are you arguing that 5:190 says that the whole human race (all men without exception) lies in the power of the wicked one?

 

No, "the whole world" as contrasted with the "we", both of which makes up the "human race". Like "our" in 2:2, is contrasted with "whole world". "We Christians", and "the rest of mankind". I think that it was you who shot yourself in the foot, because this meaning destroys the Calvinistic twist that "whole world" refers to "Jewish believers"

 

So you are saying that "the whole world" doesn't actually mean all men with exception? It really just means a part of the human race?

I am just trying to be clear about what you believe.

BTW, I don't think Calvinists of any stripe argue that "the whole world" refers to "Jewish believers." They usually believe it refers to Gentile believers, in contrast to "we," the Jewish believers.

 

BTW, I don't think Calvinists of any stripe argue that "the whole world" refers to "Jewish believers." They usually believe it refers to Gentile believers, in contrast to "we," the Jewish believers.

Yes, I realised this after I posted it.

Yes, I will take back that the "whole world" refers to "everyone without exception", as in this case it cannot be true. Nonethelsess, we still have "believers" contrasted with "the rest of mankind", who are "in the power of the evil one"

Thanks for pointing this out, Larry

 

1 John 2:2 IS NOT A STAND-ALONE SOUND BYTE OF SCRIPTURE, it is part of this larger PRINCIPLE.

He is the sacrifice to expiate . . . does not mean some future activity. It means that Jesus is the one who expiated (atoned for) our sins, but not ours alone, but the whole world's sins . . . All at one time, one event in the space time continuum, atoned (expiated) ALL Sin past, present and future.

Thus it is that sin is not a factor in our salvation! The most vile of sinners can through hearing the word unto faith, faith in God, followed up by repentance, have everlasting life.

 

quote:
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Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
So are you arging that 5:19 says that the whole human race (all men without exception) lies in the power of the wicked one?
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The NKJV uses the phrase "...under the sway of the wicked one". Does satan have domain of earth? Do we sin? The answer then is yes, the whole world without exception.

 

Webdog, The Bible is clear that believers are not under the power of the evil one. We have been freed from that. 5:19 refers to unbelievers, not all men without exception.

 

Larry,
You are neglecting Jesus words, 'to wit', "live in the world but be not of the world". so 5:19 could very well be addressing ALL MANKIND!

 

"Living in the world but not of the world" is not the same as "under the power of the evil one." If believers are under the power of the evil one, then God was wrong to say that we weren't under his power, that we were free from it.

 

You are correct, and I agree!

The evil one is the prince of the powers of the air on this earth. Believers are subject to the influences of evil on this earth but they are not the subjects of the evil one.

 

"IN this world you have trouble - take courage I have overcome the World" John 14.

"Resist the devil and he will flee from you" James 4.

"We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers..." Eph 6.

YES - we are IN a world where Satan is "the prince of the power of the air" and is declared to be "The god of this world".

And so -- we press on. We walk by faith not by sight. Released from slavery to satan as we are told in Eph 2 - but not free from the effects of evil.

In Christ,

Bob

 

In 1John 4 God sent "His Son to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD".

In John 3 "GOD SO LOVED THE WORLD that He gave.."

In John 1 God sent HIS SON INTO THE WORLD after first MAKING the WORLD through Christ.

IN 1John 2 "HE is the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR SINS and NOT for OUR SINS only but for those of the WHOLE WORLD".

In 1Tim 4:10
10 For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.

The EMPHASIS contrasts the saints the saved with the UNSAVED WORLD. So instead of "wondering" if Christ ALSO died for the UNSAVED WORLD or just the elect - the authors are EXPLICITLY speaking of BOTH groups for all of time.

How "instructive".

In Christ,

Bob

 

oops! I used the correct translation for Hilasmos in my quote of 1John 2:2 and I am sure someone will want to know why I use what the NIV used.

</font>[/QUOTE]Quoting that to show that like the use of Hilasmos in Lev 16 and Ezek 44 as "sin offering" - I would be happy with EITHER "Atoning Sacrifice" OR "Sin offering" in 1John 2:2.

Take your pick.

In Christ,

Bob

 

It emphasizes "God so LOVED that HE GAVE" rather than

"Christ SO SACRIFICED that GOD finally agreed to LOVE us "

Or "Christ so sacrificed that GOD finally agreed to LIKE us"...

 

Cassidy;

Who else is there besides Jews and Gentiles?

Wondering is a long way from following.

The all in this verse is clearly limited by the latter part of that verse. However if there is no limitation implied then we can't add our own.

One has to be aware that the Revelations is not all prophecy, but is about the past, present, and future.

You are only assuming that there faith wasn't spoken of through out the whole world. Which very obviously is contradictory to scripture.

No where does this verse say that He didn't die for the whole world but says he didn't just die for one nation.

I understand it perfectly to mean that Christ Died for the whole world. I'm really puzzled how you can argue against something that so clearly refutes your position. If Christ hadn't died for the whole world then you'd be lost.

I agree scripture isn't of a priviate interpretation. Which is why your interpretation doesn't stand.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

TC, please refrain from referencing to members through any insinuating language or implied characteristics such as name calling.

The volatility of the C/A forum, unfortunately, prohibits even the slightest degree of humor.

Bro. Dallas