Does choosing Christ please God?

First, todays version of free-will (resposiblity of man) IS NOT semi-Pel. You need to do more study on theologies and stop just repeating false information.

Second, show me where it says He isn't.

I can show you where God repeatedly calls men to repent, choose life, believe, harden not YOUR heart... I do not doubt one bit that God is pleased in the obedience of His command, specifically to the glory or His Son and His work thereof.

Obedience ALWAYS pleases God.

It is better to obey than to sacrifice.

 

What is so difficult about correcting your inaccuracies.

Lets see. I answered you but YOU didn't not answer MY request.

I will say you are getting much better at your dodging though.

However, did the view of free-will change, it changed as much as Calvinism has

Here is a better statement concerning the Semi-Pel view:

In no way, shape, form, or fashion do those who use the term free-will as the discripter of human responsiblity believe that MAN must make the first move toward God and it he does so UNAIDED by Grace. Get your facts straight.

God because of His grace is the initiator and therefore the first cause of man looking toward/turning toward Him, NOT man.

The only thing similar with free-will and semi-Pel is that Mans responce is part of the salvation process. Otherwise man has no need to believe because God in fact saved him without man having any part. Yet that is not biblical now is it. :thumbs:

To which even Calvinists agree. So are you saying that Calvinists are partially semi-Pelagians?

Man CAN NOT be saved unless he believe. MAN must believe for without it there is NO salvation. Regardless of if God gives it to him or not, in order for man to be saved HE still must be the one to excersize that faith or stay in a comdemned state. Man is an active part in the process but it is God and God alone who saves man.

 

Scripture is pretty clear that we weren't AIDED by grace, we were SAVED by it. And faith doesn't come from us, it comes from God. Thus, we can't claim this response as our intiative, because he put it in us. God called, God responded. We are saved.

We indeed now are alive and respond in relationship to the Father and the Son by the Holy Spirit, but we were DEAD in transgressions and sins. Dead people can't change their situations, no matter what they do. So what happened? While we were dead, God made us alive in Christ. Now we can respond, but by this point, we're already saved! Or does God put people he made alive (thus able to respond with faith) back to death again?

The question comes down to whether or not God's initiation with grace, as you call it, is EFFECTIVE, or whether it can fail. Can God be rebuffed? Can he call, "GET UP," to the dead man and he not respond, or chose to stay dead?

Another question then, is what constitutes effective belief? How firmly must one believe? What points of orthodoxy must be included and understood? Can a scripturally defective faith still save? How defective can it be and still be effective?

Back to the topic, if faith is a requirement of obedience, it must PLEASE GOD because it is (1) perfect by our own doing, (2) perfect through the blood of Christ, or (3) not our faith at all, but God's gift. It obviously cannot be number 1 because that is beyond our sinful capacity. Number 2 is how God sees our "good works," but in the case of "saving faith" would show that we are already saved and faith has nothing to do with it. Number 3 reflects Scripture's declaration in Ephesians 2:8-9. The faith that pleases God is the faith that he gives to his children. The heart that pleases God is the heart that he puts within us (using OT language).

How proud must we be to claim that the faith God clearly says is a gift is in fact our own response to his grace? God says, "here, I'll do this for you," and like a naive child, we say, "no, I want to do it." Unless we relent, we lose.

 

If strange, off-the-wall questions are asked, we need not look far for their source.

 

I would love to have a decent talk with a calvinist who could define terms biblically and not mis label people. How can you have an honest conversation with a person who really is not listening but concentrating on their pre-built strawmen and then proceed to tear it down. Regardless of what you tell them. Pelgin, arminian etc just shows the total inability of followers of calvin to think for themselves. It is sad, I really mean that.

 

How proud must we be to claim that the faith God clearly says is a gift is in fact our own response to his grace? God says, "here, I'll do this for you," and like a naive child, we say, "no, I want to do it." Unless we relent, we lose.

Walt this is what I am talking about. Where do you get that those who are not calvinist are saying that they want to do it themselves? This is why calvism is so offensive. Its really not the theology as much as it is the followers. It appears that you and NEt like to debate by belittling those that you talk to. For instance...We serve a soverign God, We don't rely on works for salvation, your theology is a man-centerd theology etc.
Listen what people are saying. Try to put away all the strawmen you have been taught to deal with and deal with what is being said.

My non calvie friends do not say " let me do it' They say thank you Lord that you have done all so that I can recieve the gift of salvstion. You sent the Christ. That is the work finished and done. The payment. Thank you for the preaching of your word wich is the power unto salvation. Thank you for your Holy Spirit that convicts the sinner and allows him to see for himself what he is. I know this is hard to believe....but in no way shape or form do they believe recieving makes them credit for salvation. That recieving something as a gift from anyone nullfies the gift after someone accepts it! It still is a gift. The person who bought or made or gave the sacrafice for the gift loses the glory. I beg if you think you have the truth then deal with what is being said and forget the insults and attacks on others who do not believe what you do (and there are many more that don't agree with you then do) and deal from the heart and not the head.

Tim

 

Timtoolman,

You wrote:

You want a decent Calvinist who defines terms Biblically and doesn’t mis-label people?

Why, then, do you mis-label Calvinists as having “the total inability of followers of Calvin to think for themselves.”

Unless I have misread you (and it is possible I have) you are doing exactly what you are accusing us Calvinists of doing.

By your above statement, you do not seem to want a “decent talk with a Calvinist.” By your above statement it would seem you would like a Calvinist who you can accuse of not being able “to think for himself or herself.”

Now, I may have mis-read you post, but it seems your presuppositions about Calvinists are showing.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

You are so right on . Preach it brother AA ! ( Pardon me Ed ) .

TT doesn't recognize that his arguments fall right back on himself . It looks like he needs another 10 month break from the BB .

 

I have been read posts on argument between Calvinists and non-calvinists lately.


This topic is argue relates to the one of the five points or 'TULIP'- "Total Inability". Calvinists saying no person can reply toward to God, because we are all spiritually dead, so, God have the power to touch person to get alive again.

God did shew the world, by sent His Son to earth for to died on the cross. Also, Romans 1:20 tells us, God created the world, that we can easily see everything all are came from God, but it is no excuse for people who do not believe in God.

God did showing things and Christ to the world. But, our responsiblity is to reply back to God by believing in him.

John 3:36 tells us, 'He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Word- 'believeth' is an action verb, God doesn't make us to believe on Christ. God gives us the choice and decision.

Why most people are in the hell? Because most people refuse to believe in Christ, do not blame on God, for send many people to hell. Many are send to hell because of no repentance, and reject Jesus Christ.

Low percent of the world are in the heaven. Why there is so low percent of the world, are in the heaven? Because some people are willing to believing and did repented of their sins, follow Christ. God doesn't make them to follow Christ. God gives us the choice and decision. Why do we have brain? Who created our brain? God did. What our brain are for? Our brain are for our decision and choice. So, therefore, God indeed giving us free willing of our choice and decision. God would have be pleased with a person who believing in Christ, and follow Him. Or, God would not be pleased with a person, who refuse to believing in Christ, go in own way.

Every individual of the world have free will with decision. Because God gave us our brain, to make decisions. If suppose, without have brain, impossible for us to make decision, we would have been created as robot.

Thank God, that He gives us the freedom and liberty to follow Christ.

I believe God is pleased with a person who believing in Christ, so, a person can have eternal life with God in heaven.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I'm uncomfortable about using the terminology of " replying to God ." I am reminded of Romans 9:20 : Who are you to reply to God ? -- That is , talk back to Him . ( See Is.29:16,45:9 ) "Responding" to God would be a better word choice . But remember that nobody can respond to the Lord without the Lord giving them belief -- He imbues them with faith . Otherwise they do not pass GO . You have to consider why people believe . Their brain power will not help them . Lots of intellectuals do not believe .

People are indeed without excuse as Romans 1:20 points out .

I do not blame God for anything . No Calvinist does .

People do not have classical free will -- of the variety that Adam and Eve had before the Fall .

I certainly believe that people have the inability to believe -- it's wrapped-up in their total depravity . Their corruption is so radical and pervasive that they can't turn to God in their flesh . They need to be quickened ( a good ole' KJV word ) . Their spiritual persona is dead in sin ( see Eph.2:1 and Col. 2 :13 for some biblical samples ) .

 

I bet you'd blame God if you weren't one of the elect. :laugh:

 

All sorts of people sue too . It doesn't mean their claim was just or that they will collect a penny .

No one has the right to blame God for anything . People do blame Him nevertheless . But they are the blameworthy ones .

 

You're fairly new to this board so it will help to know that faith is given by God, yes, but belief is our part (which is what allan was saying). And thus, when we receive faith in exchange for our belief and obedience (repenting and receiving Christ) we HAVE (God gives us) "the evidence of the things hoped for/believed," Heb 11:1, which is FAITH.

Your SOUL was dead on account of sin ("the SOUL that sinneth shall surely die.") Your body and spirit (mind, emotions, and will) are still very much alive, Walt.

That's true -- "...once to die and then the judgment."

Yup, as soon as we believed, He did.

I think so. Isn't that what He said to Lazarus? Has He tried to call out any dead people that you know and they didn't come alive?

Seriously, Walt, you are using a flawed analogy. The soul dies immediately upon sinning (just like Adam's did), the spirit dies progressively (unless one subsequently "believes unto salvation"), and the body dies eventually anyway.

As you may note then, the soul is saved immediately -- your conscience and "throne" of your life is turned from self-centered to God-centered). How? Belief (mind) and obedience (flesh, Rom 10:9-10) "imbed" that new program in you -- God on the throne ETERNALLY.

Now instead of the spirit dying progressively, it is being sanctified progressively by the Holy Spirit living in it!!!

And, of course, now there is the possibility of never dying -- of being raptured physically to glory!

Belief is accompanied by action.

Belief on Christ is just the start.

No additional. You are united with all saints by the "unity of the Spirit" (Eph 4:3) if you are saved. But hopefully you will move along with on your fellow Christians into the "unity of the knowedge and faith of Christ" Eph 4:13 which is basically "growth in grace."

One CAN "believe in vain," Walt. They can believe but not repent and receive or believe but reject, right?

Basic: 1Cor 15:1-3, Rom 10:9-11.

skypair

 

Nope not at all! I want is one to think outside the box of the teachings of calvin. And stop trying to "spiritually" one up those they are debating. Simple. Anyone up for the task fine. I'm game otherwise I'll just interject my two cents so that others can see the other side. Let others tell you what is on thier heart and what thier thinking is. NOt you or your calvinist strawman. Try really listening. Let me make a list.

Non followers do believe


God is soveriegn

God does all the work for salvation

man could not be saved aside from God

do not believe in universalism

believe that God has a desired and declared will (desires that all be saved but all will not)

That does not make God not soveriegn, nor weak, it is His rules and His ways

recieving a gift is not a work that makes you entitled to the gigt therefore not making it a gift but earned. (only in the calvinsit world)


And many more. The more these are denied the more people like Net and other calvinist keep repeating them.

 

Maybe I should because when I come back you are still using the same old tired arguement. Ever wonder why most people reject calvinism?!

:BangHead:

 

certainly believe that people have the inability to believe -- it's wrapped-up in their total depravity . Their corruption is so radical and pervasive that they can't turn to God in their flesh . They need to be quickened ( a good ole' KJV word ) . Their spiritual persona is dead in sin ( see Eph.2:1 and Col. 2 :13 for some biblical samples ) .


Here people is one of terms ill defined biblical by calvinist. We have to look at what happen when Adam sinned. What were the results? Seperation from God. Had to till the earth, pain in child birth. Dead spiritually in that they cannot please God or have a relationship of fellowship or toghetherness with God. Now God spoke to Adam after he sinned. Adam knew who God was and Adam knew who he was. God knows all people. He sees them knows (believer and sinner alike), hears them, knows what they are thinking and what they are going to do today and tomorrow. Is there anyhting that says God or man do not know about each other as if oblivios to one another or one to the other? Of course not!
Man is depraved but lets look at the biblical terms and def of depravity is not calvin's.

 

The dangers of using analogy. I'll try to stay away from it. Indeed I don't presume to say that the "free-willers" here are attempting to claim credit for their salvation. Nor do Roman Catholics, quite honestly -- even they say that God alone works salvation. But to say that God can't save me without my cooperation is a dangerous compromise.

Tim, you interpretted my question about pride as saying we would be proud to claim a part in our own salvation (and thus accusing, etc.). You say you do not, so why the offense? That's not what I was trying to say, but I agree that we would have to be very proud indeed to claim a part in the work of Christ. My point was not about salvation, but about faith. Can we claim the faith that is a gift from God as our own work/belief/response/whatever? Or must we give credit for that as well to the one who gave it?

I haven't been taught to deal with any strawmen, although I have been taught (in public school and a rather liberal Ivy-League university) to engage in rational, non-personal debate. Not trying to belittle, and I'm trying to listen well. The question was about pleasing God, and I think I addressed the question from my point of view. You say deal from the heart, not the head, but we must speak from both. Biblical faith is rational and reasoned and reasonable!

To simplify, away from the Calv/Arm argument:

• Can we agree that no one seeks God (or can seek God) until God has first sought him?
• Can we agree that our rational and emotional "belief" cannot be perfect because of our limited capacity and sinful (depraved) state, and thus pleases God only because and through the blood of Jesus?
• Can we agree that true saving faith is only the gift of God?

 

Anything we receive in exchange for something we offer (belief and obedience) is wages, a trade. We contributed something, it's not a gift. My obedience is like filty rags; my belief is so poor in comparison to the light of Christ that it is worthless.

I also have difficulty accepting the premise of division between faith and belief. Scripture seems to use the words interchangeably, yet the division you put forward is significant (belief comes from us, faith comes from God) and is hard to accept.

My point exactly. We just disagree on what being dead means.

Like you said, skypair, I'm new here, so this BODY/SPIRIT/SOUL division needs some Scriptural backing so I can understand it.

So God saves my soul, but I, personally, turn my conscience around and put God on the throne? Belief and obedience, as mentioned, are my work -- and it seems they are sufficient enough to embed God on the throne eternally?

So God exchanges faith for belief; true belief is belief that is accompanied by action (obedience). Thus obedience determines the gift of faith and thus salvation?

Indeed. Like Nicodemus, one can know and teach the Scriptures, be orthodox in every way, and obedient to the whole Law. Yet you must be born again! The Spirit blows where he wills -- no one sees him coming or going, but you know when he's been through. We can't reduce the Spirit to a mechantistic process of 3-step salvation. There's mystery here that is beyond our understanding.