Does David's Life Confirm Election

[saturneptune]

From Acts 13:22

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king; to whom also he bare witness and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who shall do all My will.

And from 1 Samuel 16:7-11

The Lord said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.”

2 But Samuel said, “How can I go? If Saul hears about it, he will kill me.”

The Lord said, “Take a heifer with you and say, ‘I have come to sacrifice to the Lord.’ 3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what to do. You are to anoint for me the one I indicate.”

4 Samuel did what the Lord said. When he arrived at Bethlehem, the elders of the town trembled when they met him. They asked, “Do you come in peace?”

5 Samuel replied, “Yes, in peace; I have come to sacrifice to the Lord. Consecrate yourselves and come to the sacrifice with me.” Then he consecrated Jesse and his sons and invited them to the sacrifice.

6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliab and thought, “Surely the Lord’s anointed stands here before the Lord.”

7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”

8 Then Jesse called Abinadab and had him pass in front of Samuel. But Samuel said, “The Lord has not chosen this one either.” 9 Jesse then had Shammah pass by, but Samuel said, “Nor has the Lord chosen this one.” 10 Jesse had seven of his sons pass before Samuel, but Samuel said to him, “The Lord has not chosen these.” 11 So he asked Jesse, “Are these all the sons you have?”

“There is still the youngest,” Jesse answered. “He is tending the sheep.”

Samuel said, “Send for him; we will not sit down until he arrives.”

12 So he sent for him and had him brought in. He was glowing with health and had a fine appearance and handsome features.

Then the Lord said, “Rise and anoint him; this is the one.”

13 So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon David. Samuel then went to Ramah.


On this board, we are constantly debating election vs free will, and search out that line between saved and lost. David is a fascinating figure that paints a clear picture to both. Here is a man obviously chosen by God to salvation, but yet, he committed murder and adultery, plus disobeyed the Lord on several occasions.

From Psalms 119:164

Seven times a day I praise you for your righteous laws.

To me, it is obvious from these verses, that God not only chose David to salvation, His hand was on him his entire life. David was set apart. Yet, David committed some of the most evil acts known to man.

So that begs the question, are most people that murder and commit adultery saved? And if not, what is the difference? The difference between eternal life and death. As we read story after story about David, and the Psalms, we can see God's hand in every aspect of his life. David did not choose God, by some residual faith. God clearly states He chose David. So, the difference is election.

I would be the first to say that on the surface, those sins appear like that of a lost person. In fact, how many lost people ever had someone murdered to take away their wife? Not many in the scheme of things. The fact is, without the Lord is without the Lord. That shows many things. One is outward appearance, especially over an instant in time, does not reveal to you someone else's spiritual state. Even over time, one is just making an intelligent guess.

As Icon has said many times, a Christian's sin does not dominate. It appears on occasion, but the trip back to the Lord is swift and sometimes harsh.

Any comments? Oh yes, I have one. Those of us on this board who are Christians, do we praise God seven times a day?

 

[Bro. James]

Election for sure. Also: the total depravity of man and the amazing grace of God.

Salvation is of the Lord. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[saturneptune]

Election for sure. Also: the total depravity of man and the amazing grace of God.

Salvation is of the Lord. All of our righteousness is as filthy rags.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

James, thanks for bringing out those two points. I never have mentioned it, but your closing salutation "even so, come, Lord Jesus" is always inspiring. In fact, if all of us, including especially me, put that at the end of our posts, we might reword our posts.

I think the more we understand the Lord and Scripture, the more clearly that line between saved and lost becomes. God's ways are not ours. We will never understand why God chooses whom He will choose, but praise God, we have may examples of grace extended to those who have sinned. Aside from David, we have Moses, Paul and Peter.

We also have clear examples of those who are not men after God's heart, such as Judas, Saul, and the rich young man who asked Jesus what it takes for eternal life.

I once read a paper someone had written comparing Peter and Judas. Both in a manner betrayed the Lord, yet one was saved and one lost. The difference is which one loved the Lord. Peter wept tears of Godly sorrow, and was forgiven. Judas wept tears of worldly sorrow driven by his conscience and was not forgiven. Another common reason lost folks come to sorrow for their sins, is they are sorry they got caught.

 

[Crabtownboy]

From Acts 13:22

22 And when he had removed him, he raised up David to be their king; to whom also he bare witness and said, I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My heart, who shall do all My will.

And from 1 Samuel 16:7-11

The Lord said to Samuel, “How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king.”

2 But Samuel said, “How can I go? If Saul hears about it, he will kill me.”

The Lord said, “Take a heifer with you and say, ‘I have come to sacrifice to the Lord.’ 3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what to do. You are to anoint for me the one I indicate.”

4 Samuel did what the Lord said. When he arrived at Bethlehem, the elders of the town trembled when they met him. They asked, “Do you come in peace?”

5 Samuel replied, “Yes, in peace; I have come to sacrifice to the Lord. Consecrate yourselves and come to the sacrifice with me.” Then he consecrated Jesse and his sons and invited them to the sacrifice.

6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliab and thought, “Surely the Lord’s anointed stands here before the Lord.”

7 But the Lord said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.”

8 Then Jesse called Abinadab and had him pass in front of Samuel. But Samuel said, “The Lord has not chosen this one either.” 9 Jesse then had Shammah pass by, but Samuel said, “Nor has the Lord chosen this one.” 10 Jesse had seven of his sons pass before Samuel, but Samuel said to him, “The Lord has not chosen these.” 11 So he asked Jesse, “Are these all the sons you have?”

“There is still the youngest,” Jesse answered. “He is tending the sheep.”

Samuel said, “Send for him; we will not sit down until he arrives.”

12 So he sent for him and had him brought in. He was glowing with health and had a fine appearance and handsome features.

Then the Lord said, “Rise and anoint him; this is the one.”

13 So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the Lord came powerfully upon David. Samuel then went to Ramah.


On this board, we are constantly debating election vs free will, and search out that line between saved and lost. David is a fascinating figure that paints a clear picture to both. Here is a man obviously chosen by God to salvation, but yet, he committed murder and adultery, plus disobeyed the Lord on several occasions.

From Psalms 119:164

Seven times a day I praise you for your righteous laws.

To me, it is obvious from these verses, that God not only chose David to salvation, His hand was on him his entire life. David was set apart. Yet, David committed some of the most evil acts known to man.

So that begs the question, are most people that murder and commit adultery saved? And if not, what is the difference? The difference between eternal life and death. As we read story after story about David, and the Psalms, we can see God's hand in every aspect of his life. David did not choose God, by some residual faith. God clearly states He chose David. So, the difference is election.

I would be the first to say that on the surface, those sins appear like that of a lost person. In fact, how many lost people ever had someone murdered to take away their wife? Not many in the scheme of things. The fact is, without the Lord is without the Lord. That shows many things. One is outward appearance, especially over an instant in time, does not reveal to you someone else's spiritual state. Even over time, one is just making an intelligent guess.

As Icon has said many times, a Christian's sin does not dominate. It appears on occasion, but the trip back to the Lord is swift and sometimes harsh.

Any comments? Oh yes, I have one. Those of us on this board who are Christians, do we praise God seven times a day?

It definitely proves free will. David freely chose to sin and when he recognized his sin he freely chose to repent. We see freewill very much at work here and God's love for us in allowing us to have freewill and to accept us when, with our freewill, we turn back to him.

Thank God for loving us enough to give us freewill and not be puppets on a string. How boring that would make us to God.

 

[saturneptune]

It definitely proves free will. David freely chose to sin and when he recognized his sin he freely chose to repent. We see freewill very much at work here and God's love for us in allowing us to have freewill and to accept us when, with our freewill, we turn back to him.

Thank God for loving us enough to give us freewill and not be puppets on a string. How boring that would make us to God.

I can see this is a set of verses that have different ways of being looked at. I really have a hard time imagining someone committing murder and adultery one day, then the next, using my free will to turn to the Lord, and praising Him seven times a day.

Maybe this is a vague or off the wall question for you, but do you think the Lord gives everyone an equal amount of free will to turn to Him, and come to salvation in Jesus Christ by grace through faith?

 

[Tom Butler]

Since both God's sovereignty and man's will have been mentioned in this thread, let's pursue it further.

First, I like the term "free agency" rather than "free will."

The great Baptist theologian A. H. Strong defined it this way:

[FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot]"Free agency is the power of self-determination in view of motives or man's power (a) to choose between motives, and (b) direct his subsequent activity according to the motive thus chosen"[/FONT]

From Systematic Theology.p.176

Spurgeon spoke for a large number of Baptists when he wrote:

[FONT=&quot]The predestination of God does not destroy the free agency of man, or lighten the responsibility of the sinner" (Sermons, Vol. 18, p. 30). [/FONT]

And this from another Baptist theologian, E. Y. Mullins:

[FONT=&quot]Freedom in man does not imply exemption from the operation of influences, motives, heredity, environment. It means rather that man is not under compulsion. His actions are in the last resort determined from within. He is self-determined in what he does. Some hold that freedom in man means ability to transcend himself and act contrary to his character. (This is the erroneous sense of free will, as believed by all Pelagians and Arminians, and as opposed by Luther and many others.) The will is thus regarded, not as an expression of what the man is in his essential character. It is free in the sense of being capable of choices unrelated to past choices, acquired traits, and hereditary tendencies. This is an untenable view of freedom. It makes the will a mere external attachment to man's nature rather than an expression thereof. Freedom excludes compulsion from without, it also excludes mere caprice and arbitrariness. Freedom is self-determinative (The Christian Religion in its Doctrinal Expression pp. 258,259)[/FONT]

So, this naturally leads to the question, how can man be free and God be sovereign?

Yet, it is clear that the two can be harmonized. We find this in Acts 2:23:

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

Peter clearly preached that God's sovereignty was at work in the crucifixion, but those who killed the Lord Jesus were responsible. Else he would not have called them wicked. God had determined that the Christ would be crucified. He determined the ones who would do it. And He permitted them to act according to their nature and motives. They killed Jesus because they hated him.

How one's nature is changed is another subject to explore, but I'll stop here for the moment.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Another of those either/or problems...

Addressing David only - it is clear that the Lord 'elected' David as King of Israel.

David is described as a man 'after God's own heart'; and is also an adulterer, a murderer and an abuser of power. Clearly God saw something in David worthy of service. Or, perhaps God saw David as suitable for service.

One notes this happened prior to the general advent of the Holy Spirit. I do not know if this makes 'the difference' or any difference. Just an observation.

As for the seeming contradiction of 'sovereignty' and 'free-will'; all I can say is this. Both are mentioned in Scripture and held to be factual. They both exist - how they interface, I freely (or by God's sovereignty?) admit I do not know. I don't know how the Trinity works fully either, but it does.

 

[JamesL]

Addressing David only - it is clear that the Lord 'elected' David as King of Israel.

David is described as a man 'after God's own heart'; and is also an adulterer, a murderer and an abuser of power. Clearly God saw something in David worthy of service. Or, perhaps God saw David as suitable for service.

One notes this happened prior to the general advent of the Holy Spirit. I do not know if this makes 'the difference' or any difference. Just an observation.

As for the seeming contradiction of 'sovereignty' and 'free-will'; all I can say is this. Both are mentioned in Scripture and held to be factual. They both exist - how they interface, I freely (or by God's sovereignty?) admit I do not know. I don't know how the Trinity works fully either, but it does.

:thumbs:
That is solid

 

[Archie the Preacher]

My Brother James

:thumbs:
That is solid

Thank you. I appreciate your concurrence.

 

[saturneptune]

Thank you. I appreciate your concurrence.

Please clarify something from your previous post. You have not been here long, but can already tell you are going to be a person I read their posts with great interest. Did you say you thought there is a significance to David being a man after God's own heart and committing murder and adultery at the same time because it was before the cross? If so, are you saying that would be an impossible situation today? I never thought of that is why I asked. I always looked at David as a unique individual that God chose to do great things. Someone who murders and commits adultery, on average, I would think in most cases is not saved, as most lost people do not murder. (except in their hearts) Anyway, I just viewed David as a man that God set aside to prove that in the Lord, all things are possible and that God gets the glory, as David was not a family of royalty. In that respect, David was unique, not the normal pattern, in his accomplishments for the Lord combined with his horrible sin.

On the election question, I think that has nothing to do with before or after the cross. God's hand is in everything as He accomplishes His purposes, and the story is David makes that quite clear. Chosen to be King in an impoverished family, and the least likely of that family. This gives the glory to the Lord. Then, even after his sin I mentioned, he falls down before the Lord and confesses his wretched state, and begs for forgiveness. In other words, he displayed true Godly sorrow.

In the course of modern daily life, if someone murdered today for a new spouse, the idea this person is saved to me would be next to impossible or very rare, as the Lord chooses.

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Just the one issue...

Did you say you thought there is a significance to David being a man after God's own heart and committing murder and adultery at the same time because it was before the cross?

Not as such. David lived, sinned, was forgiven - from what we can see - and died prior to the Sacrifice of Jesus. Therefore, David was not 'saved' by 'believing on Jesus'. David did believe on God under the conditions of the Mosaic Law. I said in the posting, I don't know if David being pre-Christ was 'the difference' in David's restoration after committing such outrageous deeds or 'any difference at all'. I still don't know, other than God does work to redeem sinners and in a different sense, believers as well.

Lest anyone get the wrong idea, David's sin was atoned for in the Sacrificial death of Jesus; just as for Abraham, Moses, and all the prophets and all the other known and unknown people of the Old Covenant. But their 'condition' for salvation was obedience to and faith in the Creator God known to them. (They did not know Jesus by name, as that carpenter fellow from Nazareth; the ones who paid attention did have faith in the Messiah - the Christ in Greek - coming as the Savior.)

In the course of modern daily life, if someone murdered today for a new spouse, the idea this person is saved to me would be next to impossible or very rare, as the Lord chooses.

You get NO argument from me on this point. But I must confess, there are some people alive today simply because it is illegal to kill them. I have had some seriously evil intentions at times. However, God has forgiven me; He still deals with me, blessing me and beating the stupid out of me as needed.

If so, are you saying that would be an impossible situation today?

Not 'impossible'. For instance, Jim Baker - noted televangelist and convicted conman - went to prison and was publicly humiliated for his crimes. As a result, he either became a Christian or got very serious about his Christianity and still works in Christian ministry. There are other people who have been 'famous' Christians, got sideways with God and the law and then made a 'comeback'. However, conspiracy to commit murder and premeditated murder are pretty serious crimes. Barring some form of mental problem, I would be very suspect about a Christian doing such. (And of course, this does not include pretend Christians.)

...after [David's] ... sin ... [David] falls down before the Lord and confesses his wretched state, and begs for forgiveness. In other words, he displayed true Godly sorrow.

I have a thought - and just my own suspicion - David was sick inside over all this and wanted to confess and get it out. God sent Nathan to let David know it wasn't a secret anyway.

I always looked at David as a unique individual that God chose to do great things.

From the evidence of history, God saw David that way as well.

On the election question, I think that has nothing to do with before or after the cross.

I agree. God has worked as He has worked for all time.

You have not been here long, but can already tell you are going to be a person I read their posts with great interest.

Thank you very much. I try to have reasoning and scripture behind my wild ideas.