Does Free Will Require a Redeemer?

KenH · Feb 28, 2003

Apparently, there are at least some advocates of free will that believe that we all have the same free will that Adam did.

If this is true, then wouldn't that mean that it would be possible for a person to live his life without committing a sin and, therefore, have no need of a Redeemer?

Remember, if Adam had not sinned, he would not have needed a Redeemer.

[ March 01, 2003, 10:55 PM: Message edited by: Ken H ]

romanbear · Feb 28, 2003

Hi Ken;
Ask your self this;
What did God say about Job before he allowed Satan to tempt him.

Was he with out sin of his own?
Romanbear

Yelsew · Feb 28, 2003

Why do you think that free will is lost to sin? After all it is with free will that we continue to sin. No one is holding a loaded .45 to our heads and ordering us to sin. We do it of our own free will, our own submission to temptation. Having it our own way! That is the definition of sin!

KenH · Feb 28, 2003

romanbear and Yelsew,

Neither one of you has dealt with my specific - I am not wanting an answer about your "proof" if man has free will or not - my question is:

If this is true, then wouldn't that mean that it would be possible for a person to live his life without committing a sin and, therefore, have no need of a Redeemer?

Yelsew · Feb 28, 2003

Jesus did it!

KenH · Feb 28, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
Jesus did it!

It is becoming clear to me that I have forced you freewill advocates into a corner from which you cannot escape. When I used to play in chess tournaments, we called that checkmate.

Of course, Jesus did it. Jesus was/is God! Jesus was not born with a corrupt sin nature like we are. I hope you free will advocates believe that cardinal truth.

I also sincerely hope and pray that this theological Waterloo that you free will advocates have run into will cause you to rethink your position and more properly align your theology with the Bible.

May God bless you all.

Pastor Larry · Feb 28, 2003

Originally posted by romanbear:
Hi Ken;
Ask your self this;
What did God say about Job before he allowed Satan to tempt him.

Was he with out sin of his own?
Romanbear

No. Job was a sinner like everyone else. The word there translated "perfect" in the KJV means "upright." It means he was a godly man. According to Scripture, all men born after Adam (including Job) were sinners.

Yelsew · Mar 1, 2003

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by romanbear:
Hi Ken;
Ask your self this;
What did God say about Job before he allowed Satan to tempt him.

Was he with out sin of his own?
Romanbear

No. Job was a sinner like everyone else. The word there translated "perfect" in the KJV means "upright." It means he was a godly man. According to Scripture, all men born after Adam (including Job) were sinners. [/QUOTE]If even one man is "upright", "Perfect", then TOTAL DEPRAVITY CANNOT EXIST! Calvinism refuted by a Calvinist! Amazing!

ScottEmerson · Mar 1, 2003

Originally posted by Ken H:
Apparently, there are at least some advocates of free will that believe that we all have the same free will that Adam did.

If this is true, then wouldn't that mean that it would be possible for a person to live his life without committing a sin and, therefore, have no need of a Redeemer?

Remember, if Adam had not sinned, he would not have needed a Redeemer.

We have a corrupted free will. Arminius clearly believed this. Man is totally unable to respond to the gospel without the drawing of the Holy SPirit. Those who respond to that drawing become saved.

All have sinned, and come short of the glory of God - But God demonstrated His love for us, that whiel we were yet sinners, CHrist died for us.

Yelsew · Mar 1, 2003

Originally posted by Ken H:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Yelsew:
Jesus did it!

It is becoming clear to me that I have forced you freewill advocates into a corner from which you cannot escape. When I used to play in chess tournaments, we called that checkmate.

Of course, Jesus did it. Jesus was/is God! Jesus was not born with a corrupt sin nature like we are. I hope you free will advocates believe that cardinal truth.

I also sincerely hope and pray that this theological Waterloo that you free will advocates have run into will cause you to rethink your position and more properly align your theology with the Bible.

May God bless you all.

[/QUOTE]But wait a minute, is it not also a Calvinist tenet that Jesus was fully human? If fully human, then you must acknowledge that a human lived a perfect sinless life of his own free will. Wasn't he tempted in all that was common to man? This situation also completely refutes Total Depravity. Depravity cannot be total if it exempts even one human!

The Archangel · Mar 1, 2003

Yelsew,

If even one man is "upright", "Perfect", then TOTAL DEPRAVITY CANNOT EXIST! Calvinism refuted by a Calvinist! Amazing!

Job was upright, not perfect. Similarly, Abraham was upright but not perfect. The Bible says that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness. Perhaps it was the same with Job. He certainly was not, nor ever implied to be, sinless.

But wait a minute, is it not also a Calvinist tenet that Jesus was fully human? If fully human, then you must acknowledge that a human lived a perfect sinless life of his own free will. Wasn't he tempted in all that was common to man? This situation also completely refutes Total Depravity. Depravity cannot be total if it exempts even one human!

Yes, Jesus was fully human. Yes, He had a human nature. However, He also had a perfectly Divine nature too. He was two natures in one person. Now what does all that mean?!

First of all, many (as you have implied here) beleive that sin is essential to humanity. It is not. The sinful conditon came onto humans AFTER the creation. We were intended to be without sin. We were not created sinful.

Christ is a special creation (Thus the "Second Adam" idea). Jesus' sinlessness should not call into question His humanity. His sinlessness actually defines what humanity was intended to be from the beginning. Jesus is the pattern for what humanity should be. He is the standard, not us.

There are some givens and theological thoughts that must go into this idea:

1. Jesus never sinned.

2. Jesus was tempted by Satan with real temptations.

Facts are important. However there is a third and most important fact.

3. James 1:13 clearly states that God cannot be tempted with evil.

If, and this is a big if, Jesus' humanity was the only component to Himself, then yes, He could have sinned or had a sin nature like ours. However, Jesus' humanity is Always united to His divinity. Therfore, since He is God and God cannot be tempted by evil, Jesus could not sin.

This situation also completely refutes Total Depravity. Depravity cannot be total if it exempts even one human!

Jesus was a completly different case. You are trying to compare apples to space shuttles here.

Blessings,

Archangel

TomMann · Mar 1, 2003

Here's my take on Total Depravity.

We are all born in sin, with a sin nature, and would be the worst we could be if it were not for God's restraint on our lives.

There have been times when I egarly ran to sin, when it made no sense to do so. In those times, it was pure folly. The chance of being found out was great, as was the penalty. And yet there was no thought of the consequence, only the draw to fulfil the desire. This would be the times God does not act to restrain sin from my life.

There have been other times when there was no reason not to become involved in a particular sin. When I was not to be held accountable..... and for reason of conscience I could not bring myself to act. And this an example of His acting to restrain me from sin...

So here is the deal. If I have acted to do good, it is because God has restrained me from acting according to my real nature. He may have pricked my conscience, He may have intimidated me with the wages of my action (fear), He may have sparked a compassion for the object of my sin. But still it is He that created the restraint on my action.

It appears that God is not limited to restraining the acts of his children only, but also the children of wrath. All thru the bible God acts to control both great and small. He puts words on lips and actions in hearts. He controls...

For those who worry that I'm giving God too much control, that we become as mindless robots..... I think of it as I would a ride at a giant amusement park. Every turn and up and down is assured in concrete and steel. There are no choices on which direction you will go next. You follow the tracks. And it is quite exhilirating. Are those who ride mindless robots, or are they enjoying a provision of another.

In Romans 7 Paul talks about the law of sin. And I believe the law of sin acts just as faithfully on us as the law of gravity.. With gravity, if you let go, an object will fall. If you don't let go, the weight of gravity is still acting on the thing you hold. So it is with the law of sin..... The weight of sin is still on us even when we are being restrained, and if God removes that restraint, we fall......

We are totally depraved because, simply put, we fall if not restrained. If any good has come as a result of my actions, it is because God's restraint has assured an outcome of good. God is in control, to perform his good will and pleasure in and thru his creation.

Pastor Larry · Mar 1, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
But wait a minute, is it not also a Calvinist tenet that Jesus was fully human? If fully human, then you must acknowledge that a human lived a perfect sinless life of his own free will. Wasn't he tempted in all that was common to man? This situation also completely refutes Total Depravity. Depravity cannot be total if it exempts even one human!

[Sigh ... this gets so old trying to explain stuff to people who wont' listen.] Yes Christ was human but Christ was virgin born, meaning he had no sin nature from Adam. This is elementary theology!!!! He was not "born in the likeness of Adam."

Pastor Larry · Mar 1, 2003

Originally posted by Yelsew:
If even one man is "upright", "Perfect", then TOTAL DEPRAVITY CANNOT EXIST! Calvinism refuted by a Calvinist! Amazing!

What is amazing is that you misunderstand something so simple. Job was not "perfect" in terms of sinlessness. He was "upright" in his lifestyle. It means he was a committed follower of God. It does not mean he was without sin. Study the word and find out what it means. The words in question are "TAM" and "YASHAR."

William C · Mar 1, 2003

If Job was "upright" or "righteous" and Abraham was declared "righteous" because of his faith...and we see others throughout the OT who God obviously viewed as "upright" or righteous"; then why does Romans 3:10-12 say that N O O

NE is righteous, NO NOT ONE.

It appears to be a contradiction. Unless Romans 3:10-12 is referring to a certain group of people or a particular time in History.

Or maybe, it is just saying WITHOUT FAITH no one is righteous, no not one.

romanbear · Mar 1, 2003

Hi ken;

Don't you think we should strive to be Christ Like. I'm not saying that it would be easy but it is possible, because all things are possible through Jesus Christ. The Bible says so and I believe it. I'm not saying this is a goal we can accomplish on our own but with the help of Jesus we can.

It seems to me when you think you have eternal salvation that you can't loose. It becomes to easy to just throw in the towel and go ahead and sin all you like. I can't accept the theory of impossible. When Nothing is impossible with God.

Perhaps the reason one would ask this question Ken is because you have a desire to not sin. May I suggest you put your desire in to action with the help of Christ. You have nothing to loose but sin. Granted there is no one with out sin. But the purpose of a high goal is meant to create a desire in you to do all you can to achieve it. Ever increasing desire to do right.

To me being in the spirit is when you are praying in earnest. Like John in the book of Revelations. Prayer is when we are using our spirit to speak with God. And not only to speak but also to listen to Him. When you are praying you have to admit that it's hard to even think of commiting sin. Maybe just maybe this is why we should pray with out ceasing, like the Bible says to

Romanbear

romanbear · Mar 1, 2003

Hi Bill;

A quote from you;
-------------------------------------------------
It appears to be a contradiction. Unless Romans 3:10-12 is referring to a certain group of people or a particular time in History.
-------------------------------------------------
My Reply;
Actually Bill the book of romans is a letter to a very specific group. The Romans, it's as plain as the nose on my face.
Romanbear

Pastor Larry · Mar 1, 2003

Originally posted by Brother Bill:
If Job was "upright" or "righteous" and Abraham was declared "righteous" because of his faith...and we see others throughout the OT who God obviously viewed as "upright" or righteous"; then why does Romans 3:10-12 say that NNE is righteous, NO NOT ONE.

It appears to be a contradiction. Unless Romans 3:10-12 is referring to a certain group of people or a particular time in History.

Or maybe, it is just saying WITHOUT FAITH no one is righteous, no not one.

A man having been converted can be upright and indeed should be. Rom 3:10-12 is talking of the state of natural man, not regenerated man. Job was clearly regenerated or a believer (if you believe that OT saints were not regenerated).

russell55 · Mar 1, 2003

Hey romanbear,

Thanks for the paragraphs. They really help...

Frogman · Mar 1, 2003

But wait a minute, is it not also a Calvinist tenet that Jesus was fully human? If fully human, then you must acknowledge that a human lived a perfect sinless life of his own free will. Wasn't he tempted in all that was common to man? This situation also completely refutes Total Depravity. Depravity cannot be total if it exempts even one human!

Again, the cover is torn off free-willism and exposed is the glorification of the human.

From what I understand, Arminius did not propose, nor support a 'free-will' theology. From what history I have read, this idea originated first as a distinction after the great revivals of the 1800's. Arminius was not involved in these.

The fact is then that 'free-willism' is not much younger than our nation, founded upon freedoms, hence, you have a theology, based upon worldly political principles, certainly not unlike humanism, thus the never-ending circle of praise of the creature, though recognizing the creator, and even his redeemer, but hinging all upon the creature.

This is unacceptable in view of the Holy Scriptures, which speak truth from the fountain of truth.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

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