Does God Change His Mind?

[Rye]

Exodus 32:9-14 - And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

At first glimpse, it may seem like God changed His mind and decided not to destroy all of Israel, however I strongly argue that nothing can be further from the truth. What we're looking at here is anthropomorphic language which is used when we describe God with human characteristics or attributes. From man's perspective, it does seem as if God changed His mind but the reality is that God does not and cannot change.

Malachi 3:6 - For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God presented Moses with a dilemma that would force him to grow in character and leadership. God offers to destroy Israel and start over with Moses. This is a test in the same manner that God tested Abraham. God used the sacrifice of Isaac to settle in Abraham's heart that the value of the promise is in the One who made the promise. By putting Moses in a position where He would intercede on behalf of Israel rather than accept an exaltation at their expense, God exposes Moses' greatest attribute - his meekness.

Further, I argue that God could not have destroyed Israel and therefore never intended to. What most do not consider, among other things, is that God had already spoken of the coming of the Messiah from the tribe of Judah back in Genesis.

Genesis 49:8-10 - Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee. Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Moses was from the tribe of Levi and the Messiah could not have come through his line.

Exodus 6:16-20 - These were the names of the sons of Levi according to their records: Gershon, Kohath and Merari. Levi lived 137 years. The sons of Gershon, by clans, were Libni and Shimei. The sons of Kohath were Amram, Izhar, Hebron and Uzziel. Kohath lived 133 years. The sons of Merari were Mahli and Mushi. These were the clans of Levi according to their records. Amram married his father’s sister Jochebed, who bore him Aaron and Moses. Amram lived 137 years.

God does not change His mind because He does not lie.

Titus 1:2 - In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

 

[Van]

This premise turns of what we understand "change of mind" means. If I say, if you do this, I will do that, but if you do this other thing, I will do that other thing. Such conditional convents do not make God a liar.

The nullification tool, "from man's perspective" is used to say scripture does not mean what it says. This is simply an effort to make God's word to no effect.

 

[Rye]

Such conditional convents do not make God a liar.

Jesus was promised to come from the tribe of Judah before the golden calf incident. What reason is there to believe that it was conditional?

The nullification tool, "from man's perspective" is used to say scripture does not mean what it says. This is simply an effort to make God's word to no effect.

Numbers 23:19 - God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

In one place scripture tells us that God changed His mind. In other place it tells us that God does not change His mind. If we go by a very literal interpretation, then we’re either stuck with a contradiction or we have to recognize that it’s speaking anthropomorphically.

 

[Van]

Jesus was promised to come from the tribe of Judah before the golden calf incident. What reason is there to believe that it was conditional?



Numbers 23:19 - God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

In one place scripture tells us that God changed His mind. In other place it tells us that God does not change His mind. If we go by a very literal interpretation, then we’re either stuck with a contradiction or we have to recognize that it’s speaking anthropomorphically.

Hi Rye,

Sorry if I implied any specific conditional covenants, that was not my intent.

Which verse specifically says "God changed His mind" and which verse specifically says "God does not change His mind?"

From your opening post, perhaps you are referring to "the Lord repented" and "I change not?" I would say the phrases are not opposites, with the Lord attributes never changing, but His response to human behavior adjusting as appropriate.

We could also compare, Exodus 32:14, the Lord repented and Numbers 32:19. Yes the same word is used in both verses, but the contextual meanings differ. In Exodus, God had compassion on the people, whereas in Numbers, God does not rue (regret) His past actions, as they are never evil.

 

[Rye]

Which verse specifically says "God changed His mind" and which verse specifically says "God does not change His mind?"

I’m using ‘repent’ and ‘changed His mind’ interchangeably. I’m referring to Exodus 32:14 and Numbers 23:19.

In Exodus, God had compassion on the people, whereas in Numbers, God does not rue (regret) His past actions, as they are never evil.

The point that I’m trying to hammer home is that if God did destroy Israel, if Moses had not intervened, then that would have made God a liar because then the Messiah could no longer have come from the tribe of Judah as promised.

We are in agreement that God had compassion on His people but I don’t think it was the kind of emotional response that you and I have in real time when we have compassion on someone who is less fortunate than us. I believe that he tested Moses and, from his perspective, seemed as if he did get God to change His mind.

I remember when I was a kid my parents had a garage sale and purposely left a $20 bill on the ground knowing that I would find it. They acted like it must have accidentally fallen out of the till but in reality they were testing me to see if I would do the wrong thing and keep it or do the right thing and return it.

 

[Van]

I’m using ‘repent’ and ‘changed His mind’ interchangeably. I’m referring to Exodus 32:14 and Numbers 23:19.

The point that I’m trying to hammer home is that if God did destroy Israel, if Moses had not intervened, then that would have made God a liar because then the Messiah could no longer have come from the tribe of Judah as promised.

We are in agreement that God had compassion on His people but I don’t think it was the kind of emotional response that you and I have in real time when we have compassion on someone who is less fortunate than us. I believe that he tested Moses and, from his perspective, seemed as if he did get God to change His mind.

I remember when I was a kid my parents had a garage sale and purposely left a $20 bill on the ground knowing that I would find it. They acted like it must have accidentally fallen out of the till but in reality they were testing me to see if I would do the wrong thing and keep it or do the right thing and return it.

If you were only "hammering home" one point, you should leave extraneous material out.

You say scripture says Moses will be in the lineage of Jesus. That is nonsense.

Exodus 32:10 NASB
“So now leave Me alone, that My anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them; and I will make of you a great nation.”

In the book of Numbers we see that only two adults and the children entered the Holy Land and became the great nation.
So your view is that the phrase "I will make of you" refers to Moses biologically fathering the nation replacing Abraham. But no such inference is necessary. Certainly the leadership of Moses "brought about" the great nation.

 

[JesusFan]

Exodus 32:9-14 - And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

At first glimpse, it may seem like God changed His mind and decided not to destroy all of Israel, however I strongly argue that nothing can be further from the truth. What we're looking at here is anthropomorphic language which is used when we describe God with human characteristics or attributes. From man's perspective, it does seem as if God changed His mind but the reality is that God does not and cannot change.

Malachi 3:6 - For I am the Lord, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

God presented Moses with a dilemma that would force him to grow in character and leadership. God offers to destroy Israel and start over with Moses. This is a test in the same manner that God tested Abraham. God used the sacrifice of Isaac to settle in Abraham's heart that the value of the promise is in the One who made the promise. By putting Moses in a position where He would intercede on behalf of Israel rather than accept an exaltation at their expense, God exposes Moses' greatest attribute - his meekness.

Further, I argue that God could not have destroyed Israel and therefore never intended to. What most do not consider, among other things, is that God had already spoken of the coming of the Messiah from the tribe of Judah back in Genesis.

Genesis 49:8-10 - Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father's children shall bow down before thee. Judah is a lion's whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up? The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.

Moses was from the tribe of Levi and the Messiah could not have come through his line.

Exodus 6:16-20 - These were the names of the sons of Levi according to their records: Gershon, Kohath and Merari. Levi lived 137 years. The sons of Gershon, by clans, were Libni and Shimei. The sons of Kohath were Amram, Izhar, Hebron and Uzziel. Kohath lived 133 years. The sons of Merari were Mahli and Mushi. These were the clans of Levi according to their records. Amram married his father’s sister Jochebed, who bore him Aaron and Moses. Amram lived 137 years.

God does not change His mind because He does not lie.

Titus 1:2 - In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

No, for Yahweh has exhaustive knowledge, so does not change as he learns nothing brand new, so no reason to "correct his plans and course"

 

[Rye]

You say scripture says Moses will be in the lineage of Jesus. That is nonsense.

I'm saying that it is an impossibility because Jesus was promised to come from the tribe of Judah. Moses is from the tribe of Levi.

In the book of Numbers we see that only two adults and the children entered the Holy Land and became the great nation.

Yes and the tribe of Judah did enter into the Holy Land as promised. That wouldn't have happened if God really did change His mind and wiped them all out and all He had left to work with was Moses.

So your view is that the phrase "I will make of you" refers to Moses biologically fathering the nation replacing Abraham.

As I said, Jesus was promised to come from the tribe of Judah, not Levi, long before Moses came around.

 

[37818]

Genesis 6:6-7, . . . And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

 

[Van]

I'm saying that it is an impossibility because Jesus was promised to come from the tribe of Judah. Moses is from the tribe of Levi.

Yes and the tribe of Judah did enter into the Holy Land as promised. That wouldn't have happened if God really did change His mind and wiped them all out and all He had left to work with was Moses.

As I said, Jesus was promised to come from the tribe of Judah, not Levi, long before Moses came around.

Sir, I think our discussion is at an end. You are not addressing my posts. Do you believe scripture suggested or implied Moses would be in the lineage of Jesus? Yes or No.

The "them" did not include the children!!!!

And again, you did not answer my question, "So your view is that the phrase "I will make of you" refers to Moses biologically fathering the nation replacing Abraham."

 

[Rye]

Sir, I think our discussion is at an end.

That’s fine.

You are not addressing my posts.

I have and I must not be making my points clear enough. I will accept fault if that’s the case.

Do you believe scripture suggested or implied Moses would be in the lineage of Jesus? Yes or No.

No.

The "them" did not include the children!!!!

Aha, so this is where we may be at an impasse. I do not infer from the text that “them” was excluding some of the children of Israel. If that’s how you see it, then we will simply have to disagree.

And again, you did not answer my question, "So your view is that the phrase "I will make of you" refers to Moses biologically fathering the nation replacing Abraham."

I’m not sure how else to answer that other than how I already have and that is to say, God presented Moses with the option to do that. However that was never God’s intention and regardless, it could not have happened because Moses is from the wrong tribe.

 

[Rye]

Genesis 6:6-7, . . . And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Messiah was promised to come before that happened, therefore He could not have wiped out the entire human population.

God does not go back on His Word.

 

[37818]

Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Messiah was promised to come before that happened, therefore He could not have wiped out the entire human population.

God does not go back on His Word.

God did end all human souls, sparing only 8.

 

[Rye]

God did end all human souls, sparing only 8.

He spared eight people so that the Messianic line would be preserved through Noah. God is not one to make impulsive decisions and destroy nations or all of humanity because His emotions sometimes get the better of Him. We flawed human beings react in destructive ways all the time without thinking clearly first. That is why I believe these passages are attempting to communicate with us on our level.

 

[Van]

I’m not sure how else to answer that other than how I already have and that is to say, God presented Moses with the option to do that. However that was never God’s intention and regardless, it could not have happened because Moses is from the wrong tribe.

Thank you for actually answering the question. We disagree, God never suggested or implied such a possibility.
And we also disagree that the 'them" included the children, as it was the adults who turned away obstinately.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Genesis 3:15 - And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The Messiah was promised to come before that happened, therefore He could not have wiped out the entire human population.

God does not go back on His Word.

Gen. 6:55. The Lord saw that the wickedness of humankind was great in the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually.
6. And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.
7. So the Lord said, “I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created—people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them.”
8. But Noah found favor in the sight of the Lord. (NRSV).

God is not a little tin soldier kept in a matchbox where he is forced by a playful little boy to behave himself at the whims of that little boy. He is almighty God with His own observations and reactions. God DOES react to what men do. When they do differently than He expected, He changes His mind about them—and changes His plans accordingly.

Jonah 3:10. And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not. (KJV)

Jonah 3:10. When God saw their deeds, that they turned from their wicked way, then God relented concerning the calamity which He had declared He would bring upon them. And He did not do it. (NASB, 1995)

However, the Hebrew word translated as “repented” in Jonah 3:10 in the KJV does not mean to “relent;” it means to be sorry for one’s thoughts or actions, to be moved with pity and to have compassion upon others, to suffer grief over another’s loss, to repent of one’s thoughts or actions because of one’s compassion, or to change one’s mind because of one’s compassion. To “relent” comes close, but it misses the mark because it carries with it the connotations of giving in, letting up, slackening—connotations that the Hebrew word does not have.

Taking into consideration the context in which the word is used, a more accurate translation is that found in the New Revised Standard Version,

Jonah 3:10. When God saw what they did, how they turned from their evil ways, God changed his mind about the calamity that he had said he would bring upon them; and he did not do it.

God did not give in, let up, or slacken in his punishment; God felt compassion for the people of the city (Nineveh) that He was about to overthrow, and He changed His mind. He did not overthrow Nineveh.

Please note also the following verses from the NRSV where the same Hebrew word is being translated,

Genesis 6:6. And the Lord was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

Exodus 32:12. “Why should the Egyptians say, ‘It was with evil intent that he brought them out to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from your fierce wrath; change your mind and do not bring disaster on your people.
13. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, your servants, how you swore to them by your own self, saying to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants like the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have promised I will give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’”
14. And the Lord changed his mind about the disaster that he planned to bring on his people.

1 Samuel 15:11. “I regret that I made Saul king, for he has turned back from following me, and has not carried out my commands.” Samuel was angry; and he cried out to the Lord all night.
35. Samuel did not see Saul again until the day of his death, but Samuel grieved over Saul. And the Lord was sorry that he had made Saul king over Israel.

Jeremiah 18:7. At one moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it,
8. but if that nation, concerning which I have spoken, turns from its evil, I will change my mind about the disaster that I intended to bring on it.
9. And at another moment I may declare concerning a nation or a kingdom that I will build and plant it,
10. but if it does evil in my sight, not listening to my voice, then I will change my mind about the good that I had intended to do to it.

Jeremiah 26:3. It may be that they will listen, all of them, and will turn from their evil way, that I may change my mind about the disaster that I intend to bring on them because of their evil doings.
13. Now therefore amend your ways and your doings, and obey the voice of the Lord your God, and the Lord will change his mind about the disaster that he has pronounced against you.
19. Did King Hezekiah of Judah and all Judah actually put him to death? Did he not fear the Lord and entreat the favor of the Lord, and did not the Lord change his mind about the disaster that he had pronounced against them? But we are about to bring great disaster on ourselves!"

Jeremiah 42:10. If you will only remain in this land, then I will build you up and not pull you down; I will plant you, and not pluck you up; for I am sorry for the disaster that I have brought upon you.

 

[JesusFan]

He spared eight people so that the Messianic line would be preserved through Noah. God is not one to make impulsive decisions and destroy nations or all of humanity because His emotions sometimes get the better of Him. We flawed human beings react in destructive ways all the time without thinking clearly first. That is why I believe these passages are attempting to communicate with us on our level.

This entire discussions is between those of Us who see God as having really exhaustive Knowledge and those who see God as being more Open Teist knowledge