Jarthur001
Active Member
What "THINGS" are hid?
Did the hiding work?
verse 27..
What does reveal mean?
Who Knows the Father?
How does a person get to know the Father?
Verse 28 says...
Who comes? Who does the Son reveal the Father to?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Does God do a good job at hiding?
- Thread starter Jarthur001
- Start date
What "THINGS" are hid?
Did the hiding work?
verse 27..
What does reveal mean?
Who Knows the Father?
How does a person get to know the Father?
Verse 28 says...
Who comes? Who does the Son reveal the Father to?
Does God do a good job at hiding? For you died, and your life is now HIDDEN with Christ: jesus: in God. :godisgood:
Does God do a good job at hiding? For you died, and your life is now HIDDEN with Christ::jesus: in God. :godisgood:
Tom Butler
New Member
I don't think this is what James is asking about. In Matthew 11, Jesus says that nobody knows the Father except the Son and those to whom Jesus reveals him. It seems clear that Jesus reveals the Father to some and not to others. And only those to whom Jesus reveals the Father can come to him. Thus those to whom the Father has not been revealed do not come.
Verse 27 does not appear to leave any room for the view that Jesus reveals the Father to all. And it presents a problem for those who hold that God desires all to come to repentance, yet hides the Father from some, making it impossible for some to come.
1 Corinthians 1:28-30 explains who God chooses to reveal himself as well as MT. 18:3 and MT. 13:11-15. God reveals His word to those who humble themselves like a child. "I have come to make the blind men see and make those who see become blind." "I didn't come fo the healthy but for the sick."
So Jesus talked in parables so that those who were arrogant wouldn't understand him. Only the Holy Spirit can give anyone understanding of God as 1 Corinthians 2:14 explains and only God decides to whom he will reveal himself. So he puts the desire to seek Him inside those He has called.
The problem you have with this particular interpretation is that Christ clearly revealed himself to many who rejected Him. In that very same chapter Christ denounces many for not repenting (v.20). That does not lend to your statement here. Add to that nothing here speaks to the idea that the Father is hidden from some. I hold to the clear doctrine of total depravity but that doctrine does not lend itself to the idea that God withholds knowledge of Himself from some.
Romans 1:18 tells us that the truth of God is suppressed by the sin choice of man. v.19 expresses that those who reject God do so after full well knowing what has been revealed to them. Romans 1 goes on to say that those who reject God exchange the truth known by them for a lie. John 3:20 blames the wickedness of men not a refusal of God to reveal himself. Your interpretation just does not bear itself out in the passage.
Tom Butler
New Member
I'm not really trying to interpret the passage. I'm just reading what it says.
For instance, Matt 11:25: Jesus expressed thanks to the Father that the Father had hid "these things" from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Clearly, the Father has hidden some things. And yes, he hid them from the wise and prudent.
And in v. 26, Jesus gives the reason. It seemed good in the Father's sight.
Here's the point. God hid things from certain people. Will they, or can they, be saved without knowing those things?
It seems so, because Jesus said in v.27 that no one can know the Father except those to whom Jesus reveals him.
So the Father hides, the Son reveals. The basis for hiding and revealing? It seemed good to the Father.
For instance, Matt 11:25: Jesus expressed thanks to the Father that the Father had hid "these things" from the wise and prudent and revealed them to babes. Clearly, the Father has hidden some things. And yes, he hid them from the wise and prudent.
And in v. 26, Jesus gives the reason. It seemed good in the Father's sight.
Here's the point. God hid things from certain people. Will they, or can they, be saved without knowing those things?
It seems so, because Jesus said in v.27 that no one can know the Father except those to whom Jesus reveals him.
So the Father hides, the Son reveals. The basis for hiding and revealing? It seemed good to the Father.
You are wrong and he is right. MT. 13:11, "The knowledge of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them." Jesus then goes on to explain how his speaking in parables is deliberate so that only his chosen will be able to understand him.
Jesus rebukes the unrepentant because no one but God knows who His elect are. So no man can say that he is not being drawn by God. That makes all men without excuse. If people want heaven, they can have it and if they don't they won't. That reconciles the whole bible together on the issue of election.
Jarthur001
Active Member
It is actually Satan who blinds unbelievers
2 Cor 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
The gospel, the truth of God is preached (manifestation of the truth) to every man. It is only hidden to those who are lost, who are blinded by the god of this world (Satan).
But the fault is their's.
2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Because some people do not want to believe the truth, and because some people love sin, God allows them to believe a lie.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Have you ever heard someone say when disagreeing with someone "I give up! You are never going to listen!" I assure you parents say something like this to teenagers every day of the week.
And even here we often say, "Believe what you want", in fact, a poster here said that very thing to me the other night.
Well, that's how it is with God too. It is his will that all be saved. The gospel is preached to all, but some will not hear. So in effect God says, "I give up!, believe what you want."
And you can tell a teenager how important it is to study and make good grades. And they will act like they do not understand you. They will tell you how boring and useless school is. You see, a person can deceive their ownselves and often do.
2 Cor 4:1 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not;
2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.
3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
The gospel, the truth of God is preached (manifestation of the truth) to every man. It is only hidden to those who are lost, who are blinded by the god of this world (Satan).
But the fault is their's.
2 Thess 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Because some people do not want to believe the truth, and because some people love sin, God allows them to believe a lie.
Rom 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: 25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Have you ever heard someone say when disagreeing with someone "I give up! You are never going to listen!" I assure you parents say something like this to teenagers every day of the week.
And even here we often say, "Believe what you want", in fact, a poster here said that very thing to me the other night.
Well, that's how it is with God too. It is his will that all be saved. The gospel is preached to all, but some will not hear. So in effect God says, "I give up!, believe what you want."
And you can tell a teenager how important it is to study and make good grades. And they will act like they do not understand you. They will tell you how boring and useless school is. You see, a person can deceive their ownselves and often do.
Last edited by a moderator:
Jarthur001
Active Member
It see...
So you think this verse needs to be removed from the Bible?
You are driven to prove your doctrine even if it means you must deny scripture.
As to your post...reread Job. Satan (and BTY this passage is not talking about Satan), But Satan can do NOTHING unless God says its ok. so if this passage was talking about Satan...and it is not....God allows it.
What happen to all the non-Calvinist?
OK J, I'll play the non-cal advocate and put forth this rebutal (against my better judgement (to quote a cliche)):
Those (a.k.a. "The wise and prudent") from whom He has hidden Himself are those who have already hardened their hearts against the general revelation and chosen not to glorify Him as God .
John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Romans 1
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
For this cause God gave them up...
So, since they chose to reject His general revelation and hardened their hearts against Him, He withdrew from them and hid Himself from them and did not reveal any other particular revelation e.g. the Blood Atonement of Jesus Christ.
The fact of particular selection of the elect is not the real question.
The question is "why?" and upon what grounds? His sovereignty alone or (i.e.) His sovereignty based upon a human choice?
Answer: Those from whom He hides Himself (a.k.a. The "wise and prudent") had already chosen to reject Him upon the grounds of the general revelation (Romans 1:21) which is furthur evidenced by their unbelief in the Son of God.
John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
HankD
Last edited:
Tom Butler
New Member
Before we were saved, were we unbelievers? Had we rejected the truth? Were we in rebellion against God. Were we under condemnation?
Of course we were.
The apostle Paul was not a babe. The Ethiopian eunuch was not a babe. The thief on the cross was not a babe. They were unbelievers.
Yet the truth was revealed to them, and to us. Why them? Why us?
Of course we were.
The apostle Paul was not a babe. The Ethiopian eunuch was not a babe. The thief on the cross was not a babe. They were unbelievers.
Yet the truth was revealed to them, and to us. Why them? Why us?
That is the question which is not answered in Scripture apart from:
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
There is a place in Scripture that deals with the blending of the sovereignty of God and the human ability to respond (choose).
John 1
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Chronologically, In this passage, "receiving" Him appears to come first, then the power to "become the sons of God".
Verse 13 does attribute the birth to the will of God as oppsed to the will of man (howbeit without the order of events given). Nevertheless the order of events in verse 12 seems to contradict the idea of regeneration before receiving Him.
How then can one who is not yet regenerate and totally depraved "receive" Him and subsequently be given the power to become a son of God?
My earnest contention is that the order of events is not the issue.
From John 1:12
Is God able to give the ability to receive Christ to an unregenerate person?
HankD
What kind of remark is that? Open your Bible to 2 Corinthians 4
2 Cor 4:3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
My Bible says the god of this world (Satan) hath blinded the minds of them which believe not. What does your Bible say?
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Luke 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.
Pilgrimer
Member
I would like to offer two points:
First, the things Jesus was talking about being hidden were the great truths about who Jesus is. Just before his prayer Jesus had “upbraided” the cities where he had wrought so many mighty works, and yet they refused to believe in him, in spite of all the signs and wonders he had done before their very eyes. Thus the “things” which were hidden was the truth about himself and who he was. And that holds true today, the Gospel remains hidden to those who are proud and lifted up by their own wisdom and knowledge and they consequently have a very difficult time grasping the truth of even the simplest principles of the Gospel. But to those who are humble and teachable . . . the Gospel speaks volumes.
And second, Jesus does not draw men to the Father by revealing the Father to them. Men are drawn to Jesus by the preaching of the Gospel and only after they have come to Jesus does Jesus reveal the Father to them. We must come to Jesus first by believing and obeying the Gospel, and only then will the Father and the Son be revealed or manifested to us.
“He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” John 14:21-23
The reason that one must first love Christ and obey the Gospel is that by God’s own Law only a “temple” that has been cleansed and purified by the sprinkling of blood offered according to the Law is a fit dwelling place for the presence of God. The Gospel did not change the Law, the Gospel fulfilled the Law, and the Law requires that a man’s sins must first be washed away before he can be reconciled and have fellowship with God. So it was then, so it is now.
Okay, so maybe I’ll make three points:
It’s not strictly true that Jesus has not revealed the Father to the whole world, after all . . . if you have seen Jesus, you have seen God.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer
First, the things Jesus was talking about being hidden were the great truths about who Jesus is. Just before his prayer Jesus had “upbraided” the cities where he had wrought so many mighty works, and yet they refused to believe in him, in spite of all the signs and wonders he had done before their very eyes. Thus the “things” which were hidden was the truth about himself and who he was. And that holds true today, the Gospel remains hidden to those who are proud and lifted up by their own wisdom and knowledge and they consequently have a very difficult time grasping the truth of even the simplest principles of the Gospel. But to those who are humble and teachable . . . the Gospel speaks volumes.
And second, Jesus does not draw men to the Father by revealing the Father to them. Men are drawn to Jesus by the preaching of the Gospel and only after they have come to Jesus does Jesus reveal the Father to them. We must come to Jesus first by believing and obeying the Gospel, and only then will the Father and the Son be revealed or manifested to us.
“He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.” John 14:21-23
The reason that one must first love Christ and obey the Gospel is that by God’s own Law only a “temple” that has been cleansed and purified by the sprinkling of blood offered according to the Law is a fit dwelling place for the presence of God. The Gospel did not change the Law, the Gospel fulfilled the Law, and the Law requires that a man’s sins must first be washed away before he can be reconciled and have fellowship with God. So it was then, so it is now.
Okay, so maybe I’ll make three points:
It’s not strictly true that Jesus has not revealed the Father to the whole world, after all . . . if you have seen Jesus, you have seen God.
In Christ,
Pilgrimer