Does GOD Have True "Free Will" To reply/Respond To our Prayer Requests?

[JesusFan]

just curious...

Wondering how we handle the concept of God being Immutable in His Attributes, fully Soverign, YET also with idea that he does respond to prayers made on behalf/by His people?

IF one holds to God predestinating ALL that happens directly,its cause, would He actual have real free will to respond to prayers?

Does he somehow "limit" His Sovergnity in a wayto allow for us to have real prayer requsts and answers?

Just what is relationshipbetween God foreordianing/predestinating all thing after his own good will, and Christians having freedom to ask for and get prayers answered?

Any 'wiggle room" here for God to actually change his plans and will in situations?

 

[antonyanil]

just curious...

Wondering how we handle the concept of God being Immutable in His Attributes, fully Soverign, YET also with idea that he does respond to prayers made on behalf/by His people?

IF one holds to God predestinating ALL that happens directly,its cause, would He actual have real free will to respond to prayers?

Does he somehow "limit" His Sovergnity in a wayto allow for us to have real prayer requsts and answers?

Just what is relationshipbetween God foreordianing/predestinating all thing after his own good will, and Christians having freedom to ask for and get prayers answered?

Any 'wiggle room" here for God to actually change his plans and will in situations?

The Lord said that if one is always associated with His service, He will take care of both the worlds

It is sheer foolishness to think that the worldly affairs get spoiled if you are involved in devotion. You are thinking that God can help you only in the upper world. You have forgotten that He is the Lord of the both the worlds. His help to you in the upper world is sure if you are helped here. If you are not helped here, you will not be helped in the upper world also. If He is furious, you are neither helped here nor there. If He is pleased, you are helped here as well as there. Tyagaraja was completely devoted to God. He had one daughter and she attained the age for marriage. He was not having a single paisa. He was not worried about the crisis. God appeared before a rich devotee who has a good son. The Lord ordered Him to go to Tyagaraja to get his son married with the daughter of Tyagaraja.

God also ordered him to perform the marriage with his money only. Everything went on well as per wish of the Lord. If God is pleased with you, even the cause of the stress is removed.

Everything and every body in this world is on the finger tips of the Lord. The works which are giving lot of stress to you will be done either with your little effort or even without effort. Tyagaraja did not apply even a trace of the effort in the case of the marriage of his daughter. Even if you put hectic effort, you cannot change even a trace of the fruit of your deeds. Therefore, Nivrutti (God) is not against to Pravrutti (Self). Instead, Nivrutti includes Pravrutti. The Lord said that if one is always associated with His service, He will take care of both the worlds (Yoga Kshemam Vahaamyaham…Gita). The welfare in the upper world is called as Yoga and welfare in this world is called Kshema.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hinduism is not compatible with the bible teaching about this life and the one to come.

Keep looking in the bible to learn more truth

 

[antonyanil]

Real devotees do not expect benefit from God

Hinduism is not compatible with the bible teaching about this life and the one to come.

Keep looking in the bible to learn more truth

Just looking into the bible with not be sufficient. One has to work for the mission of God considering GOd as very near and dear and work without expecting anything in return from Him. That is the path to please Him. Do not use GOd for your personal purposes to get something in return. Then it is the worst.

Real devotees do not expect benefit from God

If your aim is only to solve your problem in this world or in the upper world or in both, you have nothing to do with the formless God or the form of God. Your work is done when you pray for it sincerely. But mind that your love is not for God but for the solution of your problem. Then God gives the solution for your problems only in a temporary way, which is not good for you in the long run. He postpones your bad results and brings the good results from your future births to the present. By this, you only enjoy the results of the deeds, which you have done and you cannot enjoy the results of the deeds, which you have not done.


It is like sending your application to the officer through a peon [office boy] after paying the necessary amount and getting back the application with the signature of the officer. You have nothing to do with the personality or the qualities of the officer. But when a girl loves the officer, she likes to see the personality and know about his qualities. His position as an officer is only one of the several aspects. Often, she neglects this aspect of the post, when the personality and qualities have attracted her. Similarly, a real devotee feels happy by knowing the details of God and he is not worried about the benefit from God. In this case, the Lord suffers for bad results of that real devotee and gives him eternal happiness.

 

[freeatlast]

Just looking into the bible with not be sufficient. One has to work for the mission of God considering GOd as very near and dear and work without expecting anything in return from Him. That is the path to please Him. Do not use GOd for your personal purposes to get something in return. Then it is the worst.

Real devotees do not expect benefit from God

If your aim is only to solve your problem in this world or in the upper world or in both, you have nothing to do with the formless God or the form of God. Your work is done when you pray for it sincerely. But mind that your love is not for God but for the solution of your problem. Then God gives the solution for your problems only in a temporary way, which is not good for you in the long run. He postpones your bad results and brings the good results from your future births to the present. By this, you only enjoy the results of the deeds, which you have done and you cannot enjoy the results of the deeds, which you have not done.


It is like sending your application to the officer through a peon [office boy] after paying the necessary amount and getting back the application with the signature of the officer. You have nothing to do with the personality or the qualities of the officer. But when a girl loves the officer, she likes to see the personality and know about his qualities. His position as an officer is only one of the several aspects. Often, she neglects this aspect of the post, when the personality and qualities have attracted her. Similarly, a real devotee feels happy by knowing the details of God and he is not worried about the benefit from God. In this case, the Lord suffers for bad results of that real devotee and gives him eternal happiness.

antonyanil while it is true that we should not be serving God as a route to get things from Him we are told that He will to bless us. Our relationship with God is a loving one. We come to Him as children coming to a father. It is possible to serve Him from a pure heart and receive blessings in this life as well as the life to come.

 

[Cypress]

just curious...

Wondering how we handle the concept of God being Immutable in His Attributes, fully Soverign, YET also with idea that he does respond to prayers made on behalf/by His people?

IF one holds to God predestinating ALL that happens directly,its cause, would He actual have real free will to respond to prayers?

Does he somehow "limit" His Sovergnity in a wayto allow for us to have real prayer requsts and answers? end quote.

To the first question the answer would be no. There is nothing to respond to.
To the second, we have real requests and answers and God causes this to be the case.:love2:

 

[David Lamb]

The Lord said that if one is always associated with His service, He will take care of both the worlds

Who do you mean by "The Lord"? And what do you mean by "both the worlds"?

It is sheer foolishness to think that the worldly affairs get spoiled if you are involved in devotion.

I agree, if you mean that it is foolishness to think that we should not be involved in prayer, praise and other devotions for fear it might spoil the things of this world.

You are thinking that God can help you only in the upper world. You have forgotten that He is the Lord of the both the worlds. His help to you in the upper world is sure if you are helped here. If you are not helped here, you will not be helped in the upper world also. If He is furious, you are neither helped here nor there. If He is pleased, you are helped here as well as there. Tyagaraja was completely devoted to God. He had one daughter and she attained the age for marriage. He was not having a single paisa. He was not worried about the crisis. God appeared before a rich devotee who has a good son. The Lord ordered Him to go to Tyagaraja to get his son married with the daughter of Tyagaraja.

God also ordered him to perform the marriage with his money only. Everything went on well as per wish of the Lord. If God is pleased with you, even the cause of the stress is removed.

The bible does not teach that God's blessings in the "upper world" are only sure if you are helped here. In fact Jesus taught the opposite. For example, He said to His disciples in John 16.33:

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
​

By "Tyagaraja" do you mean the Indian musician born in Tamil Nadu in 1767? I thought he was a Hindu.

Everything and every body in this world is on the finger tips of the Lord. The works which are giving lot of stress to you will be done either with your little effort or even without effort. Tyagaraja did not apply even a trace of the effort in the case of the marriage of his daughter. Even if you put hectic effort, you cannot change even a trace of the fruit of your deeds. Therefore, Nivrutti (God) is not against to Pravrutti (Self). Instead, Nivrutti includes Pravrutti. The Lord said that if one is always associated with His service, He will take care of both the worlds (Yoga Kshemam Vahaamyaham…Gita). The welfare in the upper world is called as Yoga and welfare in this world is called Kshema.

Please, Anthony, could you answer two simple questions:

Are you an Christian?

Which baptist church are you a member of? You say you are a baptist on your profile, and you say that your home church is baptist, so it seems very strange that you quote the Hindu Gita instead of the bible, and use Hindu terms like "Nivrutti" and "Pravrutti."

 

[convicted1]

Who do you mean by "The Lord"? And what do you mean by "both the worlds"?



I agree, if you mean that it is foolishness to think that we should not be involved in prayer, praise and other devotions for fear it might spoil the things of this world.



The bible does not teach that God's blessings in the "upper world" are only sure if you are helped here. In fact Jesus taught the opposite. For example, He said to His disciples in John 16.33:

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
​

By "Tyagaraja" do you mean the Indian musician born in Tamil Nadu in 1767? I thought he was a Hindu.



Please, Anthony, could you answer two simple questions:

Are you an Christian?

Which baptist church are you a member of? You say you are a baptist on your profile, and you say that your home church is baptist, so it seems very strange that you quote the Hindu Gita instead of the bible, and use Hindu terms like "Nivrutti" and "Pravrutti."

There is a saying over here, Bro. David: "If it looks like a duck, eats like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, more than likely, it's a duck!!"

Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Matthew 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

Luke 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

1 Corinthians 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

1 Corinthians 5:8 herefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

Galatians 5:9 A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.

For the sake of heaven, stay away from the leaven!!!


I'm just sayin'.............

 

[Iconoclast]

He is mixing ideas from hinduism and trying to fit them into biblical ideas.

It is like an open theism follower trying to fit that philosophy into the scripture.

I think he has tried this before;

Quote:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/...opic=30785.900

Quote:
http://www.peopleforever.org/viewcom...ommunityid=228

Quote:
http://67.18.186.156/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=14193


busted my friend!

 

[David Lamb]

There is a saying over here, Bro. David: "If it looks like a duck, eats like a duck, quacks like a duck, and waddles like a duck, more than likely, it's a duck!!"


For the sake of heaven, stay away from the leaven!!!


I'm just sayin'.............

Yes, Convicted, we have the same "Duck" saying on this side of the pond.

I apologise sincerely if you think I was wrong to reply to Antonyanil. Perhaps it may help if a reassure you that I believe the bible to be God's inerrant and infallible Word. I do not in any way believe the Hindu writings Antonyanil has been posting.

In the post to which you replied, all I was trying to do was to encourage Antonyanil to realise that the things he is posting, in this thread and others, have nothing to do with Christianity. Thus, I asked him who he meant by "The Lord", whether he is a Christian, and which baptist church he is a member of.

If I worded my post in a way that caused you to think I was in any way condoning or agreeing with "hinduistic" (not sure if that's a word!) teachings, I can only apologise again, and say to you and everyone else here, that was certainly not my intention.

 

[convicted1]

Yes, Convicted, we have the same "Duck" saying on this side of the pond.

I apologise sincerely if you think I was wrong to reply to Antonyanil. Perhaps it may help if a reassure you that I believe the bible to be God's inerrant and infallible Word. I do not in any way believe the Hindu writings Antonyanil has been posting.

In the post to which you replied, all I was trying to do was to encourage Antonyanil to realise that the things he is posting, in this thread and others, have nothing to do with Christianity. Thus, I asked him who he meant by "The Lord", whether he is a Christian, and which baptist church he is a member of.

If I worded my post in a way that caused you to think I was in any way condoning or agreeing with "hinduistic" (not sure if that's a word!) teachings, I can only apologise again, and say to you and everyone else here, that was certainly not my intention.

no, no, no, my dear Brother. I appreciate what you did...that was not my intent. I am sorry if you thought I was discouraging you. Kudos for what you said....and asked him.

 

[righteousdude2]

If ALL is Predestined, then Why Did Jesus Say . . .

. . . in John 14:13, John 15:16 and John 16:23 "whatsoever you ask the Father, in my name, He will do for you!"

That sounds as if God is waiting for our prayers to act by the name of Jesus, to bring the Father glory, and bless us by giving us what we ask for.

E.M. Bounds once said that it is our prayer that moves the very hand of God! See: http://www.fbinstitute.com/Bounds/Weapon_of_Prayer_Text.html

So my answer to this question is a resounding: YES! God does act when we pray. There are many who have been healed as a direct result of prayer. Prayer has changed many bad situations into victories for Him and the prayee!

I have faith that I can go to my Father in prayer knowing He can, will and in fact, HAS changed situations I faced. If the situation I faced and went to God in prayer was etched in stone, and unchangeable, then what is the purpose of prayer. It would be merely an exercise in futility.

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[David Lamb]

no, no, no, my dear Brother. I appreciate what you did...that was not my intent. I am sorry if you thought I was discouraging you. Kudos for what you said....and asked him.

Thans for making that clear - my mind is a lot easier now!

 

[Tom Butler]

C H Spurgeon spoke to the question:

Predestination embraceth the great and the little, and reacheth unto all things; the question is, wherefore pray? Might it not as logically be asked, wherefore breathe, eat, move, or do anything? We have an answer which satisfies us, namely, that our prayers are in the predestination, and that God has as much ordained his people's prayers as anything else, and when we pray we are producing links in the chain of ordained facts. Destiny decrees that I should pray—I pray; destiny decrees that I shall be answered, and the answer comes to me.

Here's the link to the entire writing:
http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace/whypray.html

 

[InTheLight]

C H Spurgeon spoke to the question:

our prayers are in the predestination

Here's the link to the entire writing:
http://www.gracesermons.com/hisbygrace/whypray.html

Our prayers are predestinated? I know that Reformed people don't like to hear it, but if ever there was a reason to claim that Calvinism makes humans out to be robots, this would be a good place.

I think the answer is a bit more elusive. I'm coming to think that while God is eternal and 'outside of time', why can't He directly intervene in our timeframe and answer prayer? He is all powerful.

 

[Tom Butler]

Our prayers are predestinated? I know that Reformed people don't like to hear it, but if ever there was a reason to claim that Calvinism makes humans out to be robots, this would be a good place.

I think the answer is a bit more elusive. I'm coming to think that while God is eternal and 'outside of time', why can't He directly intervene in our timeframe and answer prayer? He is all powerful.

In my view, God has ordained the means as well as the end. In the area of prayer, God has determined that he will sometimes exercise his sovereign will in response to prayer. Now, to be sure, sometimes the answer is yes; sometimes it is no; and sometimes it's not now.

I'm thinking of Blind Bartimaeus. Jesus made it clear to those with him that Bart was blind so that he could restore his sight at that moment in time, to demonstrate his power. Yet, he asked Bart what he wanted. Bart replied, "I want my sight." Jesus intended to heal him. Bart was made blind from birth because that healing was decreed before he was born. But Jesus made him ask.

I'm sure that you, as I, have been moved to pray for something specific. I believe God put that desire in us.

Many years ago, during a revival service, word came that one of our members, a young woman, was near death. The service came to a halt and we all gathered at the front to pray that God would save her life.

Later, we learned that her fever had broken. About what time, we asked. It was at exactly the same time we prayed. She is still alive today.

To me, prayer is not designed to get God to do something he doesn't intend to do. It is designed to remind us that we are totally dependent on Him.

But whether I'm right or not, in the scriptures we are told to pray, to ask for what we want, and leave it to God. So I pray because the Bible says we should.

This discussion is about finding, in some way, the mind of God. But it is beside the point. God says ask. We are all Calvinists on our knees.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

In my view, God has ordained the means as well as the end. In the area of prayer, God has determined that he will sometimes exercise his sovereign will in response to prayer. Now, to be sure, sometimes the answer is yes; sometimes it is no; and sometimes it's not now.

I'm thinking of Blind Bartimaeus. Jesus made it clear to those with him that Bart was blind so that he could restore his sight at that moment in time, to demonstrate his power. Yet, he asked Bart what he wanted. Bart replied, "I want my sight." Jesus intended to heal him. Bart was made blind from birth because that healing was decreed before he was born. But Jesus made him ask.

I'm sure that you, as I, have been moved to pray for something specific. I believe God put that desire in us.

Many years ago, during a revival service, word came that one of our members, a young woman, was near death. The service came to a halt and we all gathered at the front to pray that God would save her life.

Later, we learned that her fever had broken. About what time, we asked. It was at exactly the same time we prayed. She is still alive today.

To me, prayer is not designed to get God to do something he doesn't intend to do. It is designed to remind us that we are totally dependent on Him.

But whether I'm right or not, in the scriptures we are told to pray, to ask for what we want, and leave it to God. So I pray because the Bible says we should.

This discussion is about finding, in some way, the mind of God. But it is beside the point. God says ask. We are all Calvinists on our knees.

Amen brother:jesus: