Does God Know you?

[Lacy Evans]

Naturally #1 is out because God created all souls.

#2 & #3 are one in the same. One cannot have Christ living in them and that not be intimate! That is as intimate as you can get.

Do you believe every Christian has the exact same level of intimacy in their own personal relationship with Christ?

Do you believe that every Christian since he is saved has nothing further to do to enhance his relationship with Christ?

Are all those verses, directed toward the saved, and calling them to a closer walk with their savior, really just cloaked calls to salvation for unbelievers?

 

[steaver]

(Lacy)...Do you believe every Christian has the exact same level of intimacy in their own personal relationship with Christ?

No, each obviously has intimacy because Christ lives in them. Each, is one with Christ. But each one is at different levels.

(Lacy)....Do you believe that every Christian since he is saved has nothing further to do to enhance his relationship with Christ?

No. We are ever growing. Some quickly, some slowly, some terribly slowly! :laugh:

(Lacy)...Are all those verses, directed toward the saved, and calling them to a closer walk with their savior, really just cloaked calls to salvation for unbelievers?

No, they are calls for a closer walk and none of us will be perfect until ressurection day.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

Matthew 7:21-24
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

If salvation is dependent upon knowing Him in the Matthew 7:23 sense, and that knowing is dependent upon doing, then you have a works salvation.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Matthew 7:21-24
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

If salvation is dependent upon knowing Him in the Matthew 7:23 sense, and that knowing is dependent upon doing, then you have a works salvation.

What he said.

 

[Lacy Evans]

No, each obviously has intimacy because Christ lives in them. Each, is one with Christ. But each one is at different levels.


No. We are ever growing. Some quickly, some slowly, some terribly slowly! :laugh:


No, they are calls for a closer walk and none of us will be perfect until ressurection day.

God Bless! :thumbs:

So we're not really that far apart.

I just think that it is possible for the warning in Matt 7:23 is a warning for Christians to avoid being lukewarm and never allowing God to "know" you experientially as we commune with him in obedience, growth, maturity, prayer, worship, Bible study, etc.

 

[BobRyan]

Matthew 7:21-24
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

If salvation is dependent upon knowing Him in the Matthew 7:23 sense, and that knowing is dependent upon doing, then you have a works salvation.

Is this the part where we tell God "you said that wrong" or is this the part where we "imagine" that the Gospel provides "salvation without knowing Christ - apart from Christ"???

Lacy and J Jump seem to want to take the latter option - imagining that "depart FROM ME workers of iniquity" is God's funny little way of saying "ENTER My beloved in to the Joy of your Lord -- enter heaven for all eternity in fellowship with Christ whom you NEVER KNEW for salvation is APART from knowing Christ"

BY CONTRAST in John 17 "THIS is ETERNAL life that they might KNOW THEE and Jesus Christ whom thou has SENT".

1. John 17:3
   "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.

Lacy and J Jump seem to "imagine" that the text says "AND THIS IS ALSO eternal life EVEN IF THEY DO NOT KNOW you OR Jesus Christ"

 

[steaver]

If salvation is dependent upon knowing Him in the Matthew 7:23 sense, and that knowing is dependent upon doing, then you have a works salvation.

Doing the will of the Father begins with believing on Jesus Christ. Without Christ all works are but dung.

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is a which came first, the chicken or the egg? First knowing, then the good fruits.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

Many hypocrites need to read the Bible pointing out themselves:
Here are some verses:



2 Cor 13:
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


The truly born again believers have the communication with God the Father for their daily lives and they receive the answers from the Father. If not, they are dead yet.

Preach it!!


NTHER name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved. Salvation in NO other way but Christ and Christ alone.

"DEPART FROM ME you workers of iniquity I NEVER KNEW YOU" is NOT the way to save "CHRIST IN you the hope of Glory" NOR "WHOSOEVER BELIEVETH IN HIM might not PERISH but have everlasting LIFE".

Jesus said UNLESS you eat MY FLESH and drink MY BLOOD you HAVE NO LIFE at all.

To imagine SALVATION APART from a relationship with Christ is to imagine a false gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[James_Newman]

Doing the will of the Father begins with believing on Jesus Christ. Without Christ all works are but dung.

Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It is a which came first, the chicken or the egg? First knowing, then the good fruits.

God Bless! :thumbs:

But is that 'work' enough (despite the fact that believing is not a work)? Because that is certainly not the work that Jesus is referring to in verse 24, and its doubtful that is what he is referring to in verse 21. If you have to add works to believing in order to be saved, we need to at least be honest about what we are teaching. Bob has no shame in proclaiming his works based gospel.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Lacy and J Jump seem to want to take the latter option - imagining that "depart FROM ME workers of iniquity" is God's funny little way of saying "ENTER My beloved in to the Joy of your Lord -- enter heaven for all eternity in fellowship with Christ whom you NEVER KNEW for salvation is APART from knowing Christ"

I've already answered that charge a few posts up. You seem unable to think up anything new, other that to tell me what I believe after I've already explained.

Lacy and J Jump seem to "imagine" that the text says "AND THIS IS ALSO eternal life EVEN IF THEY DO NOT KNOW you OR Jesus Christ"

Two different Scriptuires, two different contexts, two different persons doing the "knowing" Absolutely unrelated to the OP. And a gross misrepresentation of what I, or JJump believe. So it would be a lie to say it again. If you really want to know what I believe, try reading I have written instead of making it up and telling me. This is the great thread derailer.

 

[BobRyan]

James Christ did not say in Matt 7 "The BAD tree BECOMES a good tree by first producing GOOD FRUIT" ...

you keep using the twist of logic "GET saved by works" that J Jump and others INSERT INTO Matt 7 to try and justify their wild claim that "Depart from Me workers of iniquity I NEVER KNEW YOU" is to be twisted around into "COME ye blessed of My FAther enter eternal life and heavenly bliss as those workers of iniquity that I never knew for salvation is APART from Christ".

Instead of falling for that cleaver trick they are using - look at the details IN the TEXT with objective and unbiased eyes. NOTICE how it matches PERFECTLY with what Paul shows us in Romans 2:3-16???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I've already answered that charge a few posts up. You seem unable to think up anything new, other that to tell me what I believe after I've already explained.

If referring to post 17 you did not actually say anything. To make a case for your view you have to provide something OTHER than empty assertions - you have to SHOW something that you say actually holds water.

SHOW THAT "I never knew you:" MEANS "you came to Christ and were born again -- having CHRIST IN you the hope of Glory" SHOW that this is the meaning of "WORKERS OF iniquity I NEVER KNEW YOU"??

Until then we have John 10 directly dubunking you wild empty assertions.


14"I am the good shepherd, and I know My own and My own know Me,

Christ argues there that HE IS the door and that there is ONLY ONE way to salvation. You are arguing for salvation APART from knowing Christ!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[James_Newman]

James Christ did not say in Matt 7 "The BAD tree BECOMES a good tree by first producing GOOD FRUIT" ...

you keep using the twist of logic "GET saved by works" that J Jump and others INSERT INTO Matt 7 to try and justify their wild claim that "Depart from Me workers of iniquity I NEVER KNEW YOU" is to be twisted around into "COME ye blessed of My FAther enter eternal life and heavenly bliss as those workers of iniquity that I never knew for salvation is APART from Christ".

Instead of falling for that cleaver trick they are using - look at the details IN the TEXT with objective and unbiased eyes. NOTICE how it matches PERFECTLY with what Paul shows us in Romans 2:3-16???

in Christ,

Bob

Get saved, stay saved, I don't care how you want to apply those works to your salvation, it is the same thing. As for Matt 7, I haven't changed a thing. It says depart from me, and I believe that is being spoken to a saved individual who did not have fellowship with Christ, and he will depart.

 

[Lacy Evans]

To imagine SALVATION APART from a relationship with Christ is to imagine a false gospel.

in Christ,

Bob

I never said anything like this either. You are debating like a child. I said there is a different aspect of our relationship with Christ, that only concerns believers.

The "salvational" relationship is understood. At least I thought I was addressing believers.

Our relationship doesn't end when we get saved. That is not all there is. And in fact it better not be, or we'll be like the ole' boy that buried his one talent in the ground.


Reminds me of modern movies where the boy meets the girl, then finally the get married, the credits roll and some "happily ever after" music starts playing.

There is a small handfull of Bible verses that are addressed to unbelievers.

The rest are for us and explain how we are to live now that we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, power over sin, a high priest to sanctify every work we do, a perfect Bible to teach us and ground us, a local body in which God's gifts move to our edification, a great reward to shoot for, and a perfect promise that we will be in no wise cast out.

Lacy

 

[BobRyan]

I never said anything like this either. You are debating like a child. I said there is a different aspect of our relationship with Christ, that only concerns believers.

The text says "I NEVER KNEW you depart from Me you workers of iniquity" YOU CLAIM that this is applicable to the SAVED state! In your argument Gospel SALVATION is fully embraced in being identified as "A worker of iniquity whom Christ NEVER KNEW"

YOU claim that SAVED BELIEVERS, SAINTS are the "workers of iniquity that Christ never KNEW and that must DEPART ". YOUR argument is that SAVED in this case is being identified as "A worker of iniquity - one whom CHRIST NEVER knew".

That is your story telling sir -- not mine.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The "salvational" relationship is understood. At least I thought I was addressing believers.

The problem is you are STARTING with the assumption that NO MATTER what you read in scripture "they are SAVED anyway".

That is bias sir - not objectivity.

That is eisegesis - not exegesis!

Our relationship doesn't end when we get saved. That is not all there is. And in fact it better not be, or we'll be like the ole' boy that buried his one talent in the ground.


Reminds me of modern movies where the boy meets the girl, then finally the get married, the credits roll and some "happily ever after" music starts playing.

There is a small handfull of Bible verses that are addressed to unbelievers.

The rest are for us and explain how we are to live now that we have the indwelling Holy Spirit, power over sin, a high priest to sanctify every work we do, a perfect Bible to teach us and ground us, a local body in which God's gifts move to our edification, a great reward to shoot for, and a perfect promise that we will be in no wise cast out.

Lacy

I don't have the problem of being forced to reject perseverance to cling to OSAS.

I have no problem saying that once a person is saved they they face the issue of perseverance.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lacy Evans]

The text says "I NEVER KNEW you depart from Me you workers of iniquity" YOU CLAIM that this is applicable to the SAVED state! In your argument Gospel SALVATION is fully embraced in being identified as "A worker of iniquity whom Christ NEVER KNEW"

YOU claim that SAVED BELIEVERS, SAINTS are the "workers of iniquity that Christ never KNEW and that must DEPART ". YOUR argument is that SAVED in this case is being identified as "A worker of iniquity - one whom CHRIST NEVER knew".

That is your story telling sir -- not mine.

in Christ,

Bob

I believe you got it right that time because you kept salvation divided from reward.

Thank you! God bless.

 

[Lacy Evans]

The problem is you are STARTING with the assumption that NO MATTER what you read in scripture "they are SAVED anyway".

That is bias sir - not objectivity.

That is eisegesis - not exegesis!

It is a Biblical premise, that is not negated by negative reward. You must reject one Biblical premise, (Eternal security) to embrace the other truth that a Christian is in danger of Hell. I accept both because both are scriptural.

That is cutting out half the Bible to solve the other half - - - sir:tonofbricks:
(I don't know about all that isotopysis and excrementis stuff.)

My Dear Departed Bro-in-law was United Pentecostal. He would argue till the cows came home that God was ONE. He couldn't accept God's threeness because his math didn't add up. So he rejected half the argument.

I have no problem saying that once a person is saved they they face the issue of perseverance.

in Christ,

Bob

What you have is an impossible doctrine of back-loaded works salvation.

What you have is a Christian being able to somehow out-sin the Blood of Christ.

What you have is an ineffectual savior that has to say "just kidding" after having said, "It is finished!"

What you have is classic Roman Catholic doctrine on salvation after accusing me of teaching Purgatory.

Lacy

 

[BobRyan]

It is a Biblical premise, that is not negated by negative reward.

Calling man-made tradition "biblical premise" is the exact error of the Jews in Mark 7 "teaching for doctrine the traditions of man" to negate the Word of God. You'r doing it in Matt 7 is no different.

Trying to spin your insert as "biblical premise" is cleaver - but not Bible.

You must reject one Biblical premise, (Eternal security) to embrace the other truth that a Christian is in danger of Hell.

You show the bias you BRING to the text when you make that statement because you argue "no matter what I read IT MUST still mean SAVED NO MATTER WHAT scripture says".

How sad!

Cleaver - but sad.

What you have is an impossible doctrine of back-loaded works salvation.

What you have is a Christian being able to somehow out-sin the Blood of Christ.

Again - this is cleaver spinning at the cost of IGNORING THE DETAILS in the text and arguing the TOTALY UNBIBLICALY case of "Depart from ME you workers of INIQUITY for I NEVER KNEW YOU" is a pronouncement of "SAVED! SAVED! So now enter eternal bliss in heaven for SALVATION IS APART from KNOWING CHRIST".;

You find yourself in an impossible corner and now your cleaver retorts are all that left as you ignore the very DETAILS of the text!

How transparent to the unbiased objective reader.

What you have is an ineffectual savior that has to say "just kidding" after having said, "It is finished!"

Again - cleaver but totally wrong. The fact that you are also messed up on the Lev 16 definition of atonement does not solve your problem in Matt 7!

HINT: In 1john 2:2 we find that Christ "is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our SINS and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV.

Now find the "Atoning Sacrifice" in Lev 16 and your problem is solved!

What you have is classic Roman Catholic doctrine on salvation after accusing me of teaching Purgatory.

Actually that is where YOU went when you tried to argue that in Matt 18 the one who has forgiveness revoked PAYS their own debt of sin and then goes to heaven anyway.

That was you going there and me calling you on it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[James_Newman]

Calling man-made tradition "biblical premise" is the exact error of the Jews in Mark 7 "teaching for doctrine the traditions of man" to negate the Word of God. You'r doing it in Matt 7 is no different.

Trying to spin your insert as "biblical premise" is cleaver - but not Bible.



You show the bias you BRING to the text when you make that statement because you argue "no matter what I read IT MUST still mean SAVED NO MATTER WHAT scripture says".

How sad!

Cleaver - but sad.




Again - this is cleaver spinning at the cost of IGNORING THE DETAILS in the text and arguing the TOTALY UNBIBLICALY case of "Depart from ME you workers of INIQUITY for I NEVER KNEW YOU" is a pronouncement of "SAVED! SAVED! So now enter eternal bliss in heaven for SALVATION IS APART from KNOWING CHRIST".;

You find yourself in an impossible corner and now your cleaver retorts are all that left as you ignore the very DETAILS of the text!

How transparent to the unbiased objective reader.



Again - cleaver but totally wrong. The fact that you are also messed up on the Lev 16 definition of atonement does not solve your problem in Matt 7!

HINT: In 1john 2:2 we find that Christ "is the ATONING SACRIFICE for our SINS and not for our sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" NIV.

Now find the "Atoning Sacrifice" in Lev 16 and your problem is solved!



Actually that is where YOU went when you tried to argue that in Matt 18 the one who has forgiveness revoked PAYS their own debt of sin and then goes to heaven anyway.

That was you going there and me calling you on it.

in Christ,

Bob

How do you get heavenly bliss out of a thousand years in hell?