Does God Know you?

[Lacy Evans]

The Matthew 7:23 Thread is coming somewhat unhinged. So I wanted to introduce a new idea to the discussion. The question seems to be: What does "I never knew you" mean?

1) God had no idea they even existed?
2) They were never saved?
3) He had no intimacy with them?

#1 is pretty much impossible since God is omniscient. I just mentioned it to show that the statement is not absolute in any form.

#2 is plausable but it causes bigger problems than it solves. It creates a work-based salvation. The Sermon on the Mount never mentions the substitutionary death of Christ. It absolutely never tells us how to get saved. In fact salvation seems to be understood. (See 5:13-15). The sermon mentions the Kingdom repeatedly. It also is a Christians guide on how to behave and what attitudes to have when we do what he wants us to do. (Works after salvation, coupled with the idea of reward.)

So I want to offer another view.

One of the first times (the 2nd) the word "knew" appears in the Bible it is describing intimacy.

Genesis 4:1 And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the Lord.

Now I'm not suggesting we are to "know" God like that. (I'm not a Mormon) But I am suggesting that the word "know" has many shades and levels.

Look at these verses.

Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

Exodus 33:17 And the Lord said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name.

1 Corinthians 8:3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

In all three of these verses, God's "knowing" the person is contingent upon the person's actions and attitudes.

God "knew" abraham because of his unbridled obedience.

He "knew" Moses because Moses displayed the correct attitude in his prayers.

He "knows" us conditioned upon if we love him.

The foolish virgins in Matt 25:12 were "not known" because of their lack of vigilance and watchfulness. I dare say that an unsaved person would find little comfort in "watching for the Lord" (which was the whole point of the parable).

The Lord's coming will be horrible for the unsaved. The virgins were all saved. they all needed to be watching. We all need to be watching. It is the watching and the vigilant who will be "know" by God

Even Luke 13:24-30, the other "I know you not" passage is completely concerned with the Kingdom entrance(v28), Kingdom rank (v30), and Kingdom exclusion (v27)

Lacy

 

[Rippon]

From The NIV

Galatians 4:9 : But now that you know God -- or rather are known by God .

 

[Lacy Evans]

Galatians 4:9 : But now that you know God -- or rather are known by God .

I started to post that one too. Thanks.

It is especially poignant in light of an earlier verse:

Galatians 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.



They had known God in an obedient intimate relationship. (But Paul was warning them to continue and not be pulled in to jewish legalism.)




Lacy

 

[ktn4eg]

"But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but dung, that I may win Christ, and be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death: if by any means I might attain unto the resurection of the dead."
--Philippians 3:7-11


Note especially the expression in 3:10a, "That I may know [ginosko; Strong's #1097] him...."

NT Greek expositors have written much about this word with its various forms and implications.

Rather than launch into a lengthy discussion of it here, I shall instead refer you to an excellent reference work's entry on this Greek word that's found in Spiros Zodhiates's The Complete Word Study Dictionary: New Testament; rev. ed. 1993, AMG International, pp. 372-375.


Essentially, I would say that the OP does have the right idea about this Greek word since the above-cited reference makes this statement (p. 373): "(F) By euphemism, to lie with a person of another sex as spoken of a man or men (Matt. 1:25; Sept.: Gen. 4:1, 17; 24:16)...." [Emphasis mine.]

 

[DeafPosttrib]

My understanding of 'know' with these verses as what you quoted, these are speak of relationship.

First espistle of John is a perfect example of 'know'.

1 John 2:3 - "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments."

It speaks of our awareness, and having relationship with Christ, unless, we keep the commandments.

Notice 1 John 6 says, "If we say that 'we have fellowship with him' (BUT) and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth."

Too many Christians are claiming, have fellowship with Jesus, but, they still practicing sins, they are lairs. Show that they are hyprocrite.

Notice 1 John 2:4 says, "He that saith, 'I know him', (BUT) and keepeth not his his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

There is true facts that many religions included baptists claim, 'I know Jesus', but, they do not obey the commandments, they are liar, and the truth is not in them.

Too many baptists who hold security salvation doctrine by believe in 'assurance of salvation' according to 1 John 5:13 - "These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." They interpretering this telling us, that we can have true assurance of our salvation in Jesus Christ that we already have eternal life at the moment when after we believe in Christ. This verse is a beautiful with promise. I love it.

Understand, please look up to 1 John 5:12 says, "He that hath the Son hath life, and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." It speaks of our relationship with Jesus, shall have eternal life, OR, a person does not have relationship with Christ, shall not have eternal life.

1 John 5:12 is same with John 3:36 says, "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." Christ tells us, a person, who believING in Christ, having everlasting life, OR, a person do not believing in Christ, shall not have eternal life, but the wrath of God remain in person.

Romans 11:19-23 telling us, we must continue belief or believing in Christ till we die or Lord comes, then shall have eternal life, OR if we stopped believing, then we shall be cut off as John 15:6 speaks of, cast away into everlasting fire.

Now, I would like to discuss on Matt. 7:23 say: "And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: depart from me,(pause for a while. WHY does Christ shall say to them in the Judgment Day? Because....) ye that work - INIQUITY."

Nothing wrong with our service for the Lord, of our works. Notice, word, 'iniquity' means filthy and wicked. Why?

Because they do not repent of thier sins.

Same with Pharisees. They did wonderful works for the Lord. But, they refuse admit their sins to the Lord, while they hold thier sins.

Same with religions included baptist. Too many religions are doing wonderful works for the Lord, but, they did not confess their sins to the Lord.

That why, Lord shall thell them, 'I never knew you', because, Lord have no truly relationship with that person while that person never confess mouth with heart ask for forgive of sins to the Lord, and did not walk life for the Lord. Person's good works mean nothing to the Lord. Their works are vain in the Lord's sight, because of no repentance, and do NOT show their truly fruit.

Matt. 7:16-20 telling us about every tree that bringing forth fruit, which speak of every individual's spiritual life.

Notice verse 19 says, "Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire." Christ used tree of its fruit as illumination to apply our spiritual life. It warns us, IF we do not bring forth our fruit, then we shall be cut off and cast away into fire according to John 15:6 & Romans 11:19-23.

That why, we are commanded to walk with our fruit life for Christ - Gal. 5:22-25, or, if we are filled with filthy life, and not walk for Christ, then, we shall be cut off from eternal life - Gal. 5:19-21. Go into everlasting fire.

Obivously, there are many passages in the Bible telling us of conditional with warnins, therefore, all of these are not unconditional security salvation or 'unconditional election' (one of the five points of Calvinism's).

Christ is interesting in our fruit life comes first before our works. Nothing wrong with our wonderful works serve for the Lord, UNLESS, if we faithful confess our sins to Christ daily throughout our life(1 John 1:9), and walk in the light for Christ, so, we cna have truly relationship with Christ, to get know Christ MORE daily, as Christ knows us more as our relationship with Christ getting closer daily, so, He shall not tell us, "I never knew you" at the Judgment Day.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[bound]

For God to be Omniscient, He would have to know 'everyone' regardless.

 

[Lacy Evans]

For God to be Omniscient, He would have to know 'everyone' regardless.

I mentioned that in the OP. But there are different shades of the verb, "know". It is not always absolute.

Lacy

 

[Rippon]

Bible Fragments From The ESV

Numbers 16:5 ... "the LORD will show who is his..." The footnote says Septuagint : The Lord knows those who are his

The above is the foundation for 2 Timothy 2:19 : But God's firm foundation stands , bearing this seal : " The Lord knows those who are his," ...

The LORD has affixed a seal on all the elect whom He has set His everlasting love . This intimate love which His His foreknowledge is a comfort for His saints . He determined to put His distinguishing love on those of His choosing . The elect have been "graced" .

On the other hand He does not know many on that Day : ... I never knew you ...

Of course the LORD is omniscient -- He knows everything and everyone . But He does not have that special relationship with the reprobate as He has with His saints -- the Church -- His Body -- His Sheep -- and many other names we are called in the Scriptures .

 

[Lacy Evans]

Numbers 16:5 ... "the LORD will show who is his..." The footnote says Septuagint : The Lord knows those who are his

The above is the foundation for 2 Timothy 2:19 : But God's firm foundation stands , bearing this seal : " The Lord knows those who are his," ...

The LORD has affixed a seal on all the elect whom He has set His everlasting love . This intimate love which His His foreknowledge is a comfort for His saints . He determined to put His distinguishing love on those of His choosing . The elect have been "graced" .

On the other hand He does not know many on that Day : ... I never knew you ...

Of course the LORD is omniscient -- He knows everything and everyone . But He does not have that special relationship with the reprobate as He has with His saints -- the Church -- His Body -- His Sheep -- and many other names we are called in the Scriptures .

While I agree with that think scripture also shows a kind of "knowing" that only Christians are eligible for. He calls each of us saved folk to a deeper, more intimate knowlege of him. Some Christians have a walk that is such that it creates a more "special relationship" than other Christians.

It is this "I never knew you" that I think Christians in Matt 25:12 and Luke 13:24-30 are being chastened for. I don't think they are unbelievers in those passages.

lacy

 

[Eliyahu]

God knows me and teaches me everyday since I was born again 34 years ago.
God is my joy and hope as I come to Him thru the Blood and Death of Jesus Christ.
I have had the personal relationship with God thru Jesus Christ and His work at the Cross.

 

[Rippon]

Lacy cast your eyes on Luke 13:26,27

[Jesus said] I don't know you or where you come from . Away from me , all you evildoers ! There will be weeping there , and gnashing of teeth ...

These folks are certainly unbelievers who will be condemned to everlasting punishment -- no reprieves .

 

[steaver]

"God cannot allow a man to be saved by his work; neither will He allow man to be rewarded by his faith." -Nee

Mat 9:28And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 9:29Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Mat 9:30And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.

Ole nutty nee!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Eliyahu]

Many hypocrites need to read the Bible pointing out themselves:
Here are some verses:


1 John 2


27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

2 Cor 13:
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


The truly born again believers have the communication with God the Father for their daily lives and they receive the answers from the Father. If not, they are dead yet.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Mat 9:28And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
Mat 9:29Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
Mat 9:30And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.

Ole nutty nee!

God Bless! :thumbs:

Yes! A free gift because of their faith.

BTW, I find "Nutty Nee" very offensive. When you have suffered a minute fraction of what he suffered for the cause of Christ, come back and call him "Nutty", even in jest.

 

[steaver]

BTW, I find "Nutty Nee" very offensive. When you have suffered a minute fraction of what he suffered for the cause of Christ, come back and call him "Nutty", even in jest.

His suffering I do not jest at. His book "Salvation of the Soul" is mostly "nutty". I man can suffer for Christ and it has nothing to do with him not understanding his salvation. Two seperate issues.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[BobRyan]

The Matthew 7:23 Thread is coming somewhat unhinged. So I wanted to introduce a new idea to the discussion. The question seems to be: What does "I never knew you" mean?

1) God had no idea they even existed?
2) They were never saved?
3) He had no intimacy with them?

#1 is pretty much impossible since God is omniscient. I just mentioned it to show that the statement is not absolute in any form.

#2 is plausable but it causes bigger problems than it solves. It creates a work-based salvation. The Sermon on the Mount never mentions the substitutionary death of Christ. It absolutely never tells us how to get saved. In fact salvation seems to be understood. (See 5:13-15). The sermon mentions the Kingdom repeatedly. It also is a Christians guide on how to behave and what attitudes to have when we do what he wants us to do. (Works after salvation, coupled with the idea of reward.)

So I want to offer another view.

...
Lacy

Hold the phone Lacy!

Option 2 DOES threaten your view of OSAS but giving up a man-made tradition regarding OSAS is FAR preferrable to tossing up the idea that there "IS SALVATION APART FROM KNOWING CHRIST"

I think many objective unbiased readers would agree on that point.

Further it is IMPOSSIBLE to construe and bend the text of Matt 7 "DEPART from Me ye workers of iniquity I never KNEW you" to mean "ENTER into HEAVEN you workers of iniquity for eternal and heavenly bliss is the reward of ALL workers of iniquity whom I never knew".

Pretty hard to miss that one in my opinion.

However the "never was saved to begin with" option in Matt 7 is also another solution and that one does not rule out OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Lacy Evans]

Hold the phone Lacy!

Option 2 DOES threaten your view of OSAS but giving up a man-made tradition regarding OSAS is FAR preferrable to tossing up the idea that there "IS SALVATION APART FROM KNOWING CHRIST"

I think many objective unbiased readers would agree on that point.

You ignored the whole discussion and went right back to parroting your same old stuff. "Knowing Christ" is a meaningless statement unless it is put into context. No one is saved by "knowing about Jesus" or "knowing who he is."


We are saved by believing upon Him, that he paid our sin debt. Period. Nothing can be added on either side.

On another thread, you call Millennial Exclusion "purgatory" hoping apparantly to incite some emotional response in the reader by associating the doctrine with Roman Catholicism, yet you hold to an absolutely Roman Catholic view of Salvation.

They believe you must have works after salvation. You believe the same.

They believe you can outsin the blood of Christ and lose salvation to burn in eternity. You believe the same.

Further it is IMPOSSIBLE to construe and bend the text of Matt 7 "DEPART from Me ye workers of iniquity I never KNEW you" to mean "ENTER into HEAVEN you workers of iniquity for eternal and heavenly bliss is the reward of ALL workers of iniquity whom I never knew". Pretty hard to miss that one in my opinion

Those are your words not mine. I have never even implied any such nonsense.
"Depart from me" means "Depart from me." It's dead serious and irrevocable. Just like when Esau sold his birthright.

You deal with the word "till" in Matt 5"26 and the phrase "whosoever was not found" in Rev 20:15 however you se fit..

However the "never was saved to begin with" option in Matt 7 is also another solution and that one does not rule out OSAS.

Whether you put works-for-assurance before or after salvation, you have destroyed the gospel message. It is exactly the same thing. A frontloaded gospel is no more Roman-Catholic, Muslim, Hindu, Mormon, JW, etc than a back-loaded gospel. It just has on a prettier red dress.

Lacy

 

[bound]

I mentioned that in the OP. But there are different shades of the verb, "know". It is not always absolute.

Lacy

Let's start by you telling me what isn't 'absolute' about God's Knowledge? If God's Knowledge of 'all-things' isn't absolute then He cannot be rightly called OMNI-scient.

Such a god would be a Demiurge.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Let's start by you telling me what isn't 'absolute' about God's Knowledge? If God's Knowledge of 'all-things' isn't absolute then He cannot be rightly called OMNI-scient.

Such a god would be a Demiurge.

You misunderstood what I said. God's absolute omniscience is one of the main reasons that I believe he is not using the word "know" in an absolute sense.

It would be silly to teach that God was saying "Wow! I wasn't even aware that you existed." I think we agree?

So for an omniscient God to say, "I never knew you," and it still make sense, he must be using the word "Know" in a different way. My argement (along with proof texts) was that often the word "know" is progressive and refers to intimacy rather than just awareness.


God bless

 

[steaver]

(Lacy)....The Matthew 7:23 Thread is coming somewhat unhinged. So I wanted to introduce a new idea to the discussion. The question seems to be: What does "I never knew you" mean?

1) God had no idea they even existed?
2) They were never saved?
3) He had no intimacy with them?

Naturally #1 is out because God created all souls.

#2 & #3 are one in the same. One cannot have Christ living in them and that not be intimate! That is as intimate as you can get.

So the answer is #2 & #3.

(Lacy)...It would be silly to teach that God was saying "Wow! I wasn't even aware that you existed." I think we agree?

So for an omniscient God to say, "I never knew you," and it still make sense, he must be using the word "Know" in a different way. My argement (along with proof texts) was that often the word "know" is progressive and refers to intimacy rather than just awareness.

Amen brother! :thumbs: