Does God Know you?

[Lacy Evans]

Calling man-made tradition "biblical premise" is the exact error of the Jews in Mark 7 "teaching for doctrine the traditions of man" to negate the Word of God. You'r doing it in Matt 7 is no different.

Eternal Security is a bit beyond the scope of this thread but we can start a new thread and debate it there if you like.

Lacy

PS. James asked "How do you get eternal bliss out of 1000 years in Hell?" I'm curious about that one too.

 

[steaver]

PS. James asked "How do you get eternal bliss out of 1000 years in Hell?" I'm curious about that one too.

Well, right now you are not living the eternal bliss, it is yet to come. So in your view the unworthy believer will leave this terrible world, spend another 1000 years of terrible, and then enter into eternal bliss afterall. Eternal bliss still comes, just delayed a bit when you consider the scope of eternity-millions upon millions of years!

God Bless!

 

[James_Newman]

Well, right now you are not living the eternal bliss, it is yet to come. So in your view the unworthy believer will leave this terrible world, spend another 1000 years of terrible, and then enter into eternal bliss afterall. Eternal bliss still comes, just delayed a bit when you consider the scope of eternity-millions upon millions of years!

God Bless!

I know that, and you know that, but I want to make sure Bob knows that as he seems to ignore that part of Lacy's argument. If Jesus tells a believer to depart from him, that is what He means, not 'depart from me, *wink wink* oh come on in anyway'. If God at a later time then raises up that believer and allows him to enter into eternity based solely on the merit of the blood of Christ, with no works whatsoever frontloaded or backloaded onto the gospel, that doesn't change the 'depart from me'.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Hey I just realized that I finally went over 2,000 posts!

 

[steaver]

If you have to add works to believing in order to be saved, we need to at least be honest about what we are teaching. Bob has no shame in proclaiming his works based gospel.

Nothing Jesus says in Matt 7 would lead the reader to believe that works have anything to do with salvation. Jesus clarifies this when He says "I never knew you" BEFORE He tells them that they are workers of iniquities.

Workers of iniquities are unsaved. Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was]bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

As you can see, ALL iniquities are covered by the blood of Jesus and therefore the Matt 7 "many" cannot be Christians with iniquities yet to be paid for.

UNLESS, you ignore these scriptures.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

Nothing Jesus says in Matt 7 would lead the reader to believe that works have anything to do with salvation. Jesus clarifies this when He says "I never knew you" BEFORE He tells them that they are workers of iniquities.

Matthew 7:23-24
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
What is the therefore there for? You would have to conclude that hearing these sayings and doing them are somehow connected with the previous idea of being told to depart from Him.

Workers of iniquities are unsaved. Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities. Psa 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? Isa 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was]bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. Rom 4:7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

As you can see, ALL iniquities are covered by the blood of Jesus and therefore the Matt 7 "many" cannot be Christians with iniquities yet to be paid for.

UNLESS, you ignore these scriptures.

God Bless! :thumbs:

I love those scriptures. Those are the ones prove I will not have to go to the lake of fire like Bob says I might if I can't keep my nose clean. All I am saying is those scriptures do not cancel out scriptures that say we will be judged for our works, even if ultimately our sins are paid for. If I am a worker of iniquity, and I am saved by the blood of Christ, I am a saved worker of iniquity.

 

[steaver]

Matthew 7:23-24
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
What is the therefore there for? You would have to conclude that hearing these sayings and doing them are somehow connected with the previous idea of being told to depart from Him.

It is connected indeed! Is your house built upon the rock?

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

If you have Jesus Christ as your foundation, your rock, you are wise and therefore will not be found a "worker of iniquities". PLUS a bonus! Any works you might have with iniquities are forgiven and cleaned up in the refining fire. Praise Jesus! What a wonderful Savior!

I love those scriptures. Those are the ones prove I will not have to go to the lake of fire like Bob says I might if I can't keep my nose clean. All I am saying is those scriptures do not cancel out scriptures that say we will be judged for our works, even if ultimately our sins are paid for. If I am a worker of iniquity, and I am saved by the blood of Christ, I am a saved worker of iniquity.

Did you really grasp those scriptures? How about this one in particular...Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Here rewarded (since it is not a gift) must be speaking about our works of iniquities. No?

Even so, either the scripture is true or it is not. Either iniquities are covered as it says or they are not. You cannot on your own decide that some iniquities (Matt 7's) are not covered for the believer. The proper scripture interpreting scripture conclusion would have to be Matt 7 is NOT speaking of believers BECAUSE other scripture states CLEARLY that all iniquities are covered by the blood and NOT held against believers! There is just no way around this fact. That begins at rebirth and is a done deal!

I am sorry, but you just have to accept the wonderful grace and mercy that is in Jesus Christ. It is hard to fathom, but His ways are indeed special and not our ways! Praise Him!!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

It is connected indeed! Is your house built upon the rock?

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

If you have Jesus Christ as your foundation, your rock, you are wise and therefore will not be found a "worker of iniquities". PLUS a bonus! Any works you might have with iniquities are forgiven and cleaned up in the refining fire. Praise Jesus! What a wonderful Savior!

Notice again, that doing the works is what Christ is comparing to building on the rock. If this is talking about eternal salvation, it is an eternal salvation by works.

Did you really grasp those scriptures? How about this one in particular...Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Here rewarded (since it is not a gift) must be speaking about our works of iniquities. No?

Even so, either the scripture is true or it is not. Either iniquities are covered as it says or they are not. You cannot on your own decide that some iniquities (Matt 7's) are not covered for the believer. The proper scripture interpreting scripture conclusion would have to be Matt 7 is NOT speaking of believers BECAUSE other scripture states CLEARLY that all iniquities are covered by the blood and NOT held against believers! There is just no way around this fact. That begins at rebirth and is a done deal!

I am sorry, but you just have to accept the wonderful grace and mercy that is in Jesus Christ. It is hard to fathom, but His ways are indeed special and not our ways! Praise Him!!

God Bless! :thumbs:

All the iniquities are forgiven in the ultimate sense, and no believer will pay the cost that they deserved which is going to the lake of fire. In the temporal sense, we may or may not have those iniquities held against us. And we may or may not be rewarded according to them. The fact that you or I are breathing shows that we have not been rewarded according to our iniquities.

 

[BobRyan]

Eternal Security is a bit beyond the scope of this thread but we can start a new thread and debate it there if you like.

Lacy

PS. James asked "How do you get eternal bliss out of 1000 years in Hell?" I'm curious about that one too.

There is a thread (started by me) for that very purpose titled "A bogus way to try and salvage OSAS" it deals with this subject specifically as it relates to OSAS.

Come one come all - lots-o-fun.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

How do you get heavenly bliss out of a thousand years in hell?

A thousand years in hell???

And then what? Heaven??

 

[BobRyan]

I know that, and you know that, but I want to make sure Bob knows that as he seems to ignore that part of Lacy's argument. If Jesus tells a believer to depart from him, that is what He means, not 'depart from me, *wink wink* oh come on in anyway'. If God at a later time then raises up that believer and allows him to enter into eternity based solely on the merit of the blood of Christ, with no works whatsoever frontloaded or backloaded onto the gospel, that doesn't change the 'depart from me'.

IF Hell is on the road to heaven - there is nothing in the Gospel about it.

If Christ means "suffer in hell like it is some kind of purgatory purging you of venial sins THEN you will be welcomed into heaven" I have never seen that in scripture.

BUT IF you do find it - I believe there are about a billion Catholics that will be glad to have finally found it in scripture.

 

[Lacy Evans]

A thousand years in hell???

And then what? Heaven??

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Revelation 21:1-4
1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Who possibly had been crying during a 1000 year peaceful wedding party, other than those in Hell, whose names WERE found written in the book of life.

 

[Lacy Evans]

IF Hell is on the road to heaven - there is nothing in the Gospel about it.

That's pretty rich for a man who teaches that Hell is the Eternal END of the road for some Christians if they are bad. Yeah buddy, 1000 years in Hell, that's terrible. Give me a break. You've got blood bought children of God in the LOF for ever and ever and ever, etc. (sorry David Crowder)

You have a Father who told us to act like Him (In Matt 5) and forgive 70X7 holding us to a higher standard than he holds himself.

If Christ means "suffer in hell like it is some kind of purgatory purging you of venial sins THEN you will be welcomed into heaven" I have never seen that in scripture.

Matthew 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.


Matthew 24:50-51
50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Luke 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.


Luke 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.


Luke 12:47-48
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.


Jeremiah 6:15 Were they ashamed when they had committed abomination? nay, they were not at all ashamed, neither could they blush: therefore they shall fall among them that fall: at the time that I visit them they shall be cast down, saith the Lord.


John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

BUT IF you do find it - I believe there are about a billion Catholics that will be glad to have finally found it in scripture.

They will reject it for the same reasons you do.

• They reject Eternal Security.
• They think you have to believe on Christ and then be really really good to get into "The Kingdom of Heaven":tear:
• They reject a literal kingdom. (The Kingdom is Heaven or the Church or salvation, etc)

And they will reject it for other reasons.

• There is no saving virtue in chastizement in Hell. It is not a sacrament.
• You can't buy your way out, so there is no money in it for them
• It has nothing to do with salvation.
• Nobody gets out until Rev 20:15 at the GWT

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said --

"IF HELL is on the road to HEAVEN there is NO MENTION of this in the Gospel!!"

That's pretty rich for a man who teaches that Hell is the Eternal END of the road for some Christians if they are bad. Yeah buddy, 1000 years in Hell, that's terrible. Give me a break.

What kind of non-point was that???!!

You are arguing that ROASTING your loved ones in torment for "a while" instead of "eternity" and NOT giving them heaven is THE SAME as going to HEAVEN!!!???

Quesiton: Is there ANY LIMIT to the wild off-beat arguments you will offer on this topic???

You've got blood bought children of God in the LOF for ever and ever and ever, etc. (sorry David Crowder)

I have SODOM and GOMORRAH "DESTROYED by ETERNAL FIRE" and "DESTROYED BY REDUCING THEM TO ASHES".

I have God "DESTROYING BOTH body AND SOUL in fiery hell" Matt 10:28 with the SAME kind of "DESTROY" that he applied "AS AN EXAMPLE of undergoing the PUNISHMENT of ETERNAL FIRE".


What I DON't HAVE is "God PRESERVING both BODY AND SOUL in fiery hell to send the wicked on their way to HEAVEN"!!

There appears to be no limit to what you will eisegete INTO scripture on behalf of your ever-ready bias.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You have transformed HELL into your own PURGATORY sending the saints to HELL and then on to HEAVEN!!

The difference then is that the Catholic HELL is real -- it is for the wicked and DOES NOT lead to HEAVEN.

The DIFFERENCE then is that Catholic Purgatory has MERCY by the ADDTION OF their man-made doctrine of INDULGENCES where you only have PURGATORY-in-hell purging wicked saints to send them to HEAVEN!

And they will reject it for other reasons.

• There is no saving virtue in chastizement in Hell. It is not a sacrament.
• You can't buy your way out, so there is no money in it for them
• It has nothing to do with salvation.
• Nobody gets out until Rev 20:15 at the GWT

 

[BobRyan]

Who possibly had been crying during a 1000 year peaceful wedding party, other than those in Hell, whose names WERE found written in the book of life.

Is this where we start talking about the Calvinist FUTURE scenario where I SHOW the saints having actual CONCERN for their lost family -- their precious CHILDREN whom they would gladly sacrifice for as Moses offerred to do for Israel?? (Instead of the hollow "it is all about ME not my precious child" mindset??)

 

[steaver]

(James)....And we may or may not be rewarded according to them.

So then what God should have said instead of "He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities" is "He may not deal with us after our sins: and He may or may may not reward us according to our iniquities".


Well, I don't know how to argue with one who rejects the words of God and re-words it to their own liking.

I just don't understand this type of reading the scriptures. The word cannot make it any clearer yet there is an insistance on saying "God does not mean "hath not" God really means "maybe".

What can I say to that? "Well steaver, I know that the scripture states "hath not" but it does not mean "hath not". :tonofbricks:

And I am to somehow say "Oh gee James. thanks for clearing that up, I was thinking God meant "hath not" and now I see that He meant "maybe". Maybe God wasn't real sure what He was saying either!

(James)...Notice again, that doing the works is what Christ is comparing to building on the rock. If this is talking about eternal salvation, it is an eternal salvation by works.

Not at all. Jesus said "Therefore" after He judged the many who cried that they did wonderful works. Jesus then begins with the foundation showing the workers of iniquities that they first and foremost did not have the proper foundation which is Jesus Christ and thus their boasting of works did not matter. He is not syaing that their works could have saved them. He is showing them why their works are worthless to them.

(24)..Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (25)..And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Now compare that to the workers of iniquities.....

(26)...And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

Do you see the difference? The foolish man does NOT have the foundation of Jesus Christ. These workers of iniquities CANNOT be saved people.


God Bless! :wavey:

 

[steaver]

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

Christ must be the foundation. No man can lay any other foundation and have it accepted. All works NOT built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ are unacceptable from the start.

What was missing from the criers works? The foundation of Jesus Christ!

(24)..Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (25)..And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Now compare that to the workers of iniquities.....

(26)...And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

The criers had no rock, no Jesus Christ. They had sand.

The criers had no works meet for repentance.

Why do you declare that viewing the passage in regards to eternal salvation would make the passage a works-based message? Jesus explains why their pleas of wonderful works was rejected. No foundation in Him and He never knew them. "Depart from me, ye workers of iniquities" is a dirrect point to their own cries that they should be accepted because of their works, nothing more. To the contrary of a claimed works-based salvation view Jesus is decalring works will not save anyone.

Here is the key points;
1) they were rejected because "I never knew you" (period) Do not add "for your works".
2) they were answered "workers of iniquities" because they had wanted works to justify themselves before God APPART from any foundation in Christ.

I don't see how it can say anything else UNLESS you add and speculate, the very thing I get accused of.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Lacy Evans]

You are arguing that ROASTING your loved ones in torment for "a while" instead of "eternity" and NOT giving them heaven is THE SAME as going to HEAVEN!!!???

Huh? When did I ever say it was the same? A 1000 year time out/spanking (many stripes) is obviously not "the same" as "no stripes". I don't get your thinking process some times.

Quesiton: Is there ANY LIMIT to the wild off-beat arguments you will offer on this topic???

Wow! was that extrajesus or icecreamfreezes?

I have SODOM and GOMORRAH "DESTROYED by ETERNAL FIRE" and "DESTROYED BY REDUCING THEM TO ASHES".

I have God "DESTROYING BOTH body AND SOUL in fiery hell" Matt 10:28 with the SAME kind of "DESTROY" that he applied "AS AN EXAMPLE of undergoing the PUNISHMENT of ETERNAL FIRE".

Amen! Me too.

What I DON't HAVE is "God PRESERVING both BODY AND SOUL in fiery hell to send the wicked on their way to HEAVEN"!!

No preservation in my doctrine. 1000 years of destruction. A portion with the unbelievers.

There appears to be no limit to what you will eisegete INTO scripture on behalf of your ever-ready bias.

in Christ,

Bob

That's a subjective argument that could be true of any position. Our basic disagreement is not punishment of the believer. (As mine and stever's is)

We disagree on eternal security.

So here are some questions. Please give scriptures.

• How much sin do I have to do, in order to overwhelm the power of Christ's blood and lose my salvation? (If your position is correct, Heb10:26 MUST teach that one willful sin can send us irrevocably spiraling into an eternal LOF)
• Can I ever know I am saved for sure, 100% positive that I will never lose it?
• If I can't know for sure, then how do I ever get saved, because knowing/believing that Christ paid ALL of my sin debt is part of being saved?
• What is meant by the phrase "Never thirst again"?
• Please prove from the OT scriptures that at least one Israelite who looked at the brass serpent, went back and was killed by the snakes.
• Please explain what the phrase "born again" means, and in so doing show how someone can enter back into the womb (Physically or spiritually) again.
• Please explain how requiring works to "stay saved" is essentially different from requiring works to"be saved".

 

[Lacy Evans]

It is connected indeed! Is your house built upon the rock?

1Cr 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.

I absolutely agree with all of that!

If you have Jesus Christ as your foundation, your rock, you are wise and therefore will not be found a "worker of iniquities". PLUS a bonus! Any works you might have with iniquities are forgiven and cleaned up in the refining fire. Praise Jesus! What a wonderful Savior!

Amen! So we basically disagree as to the location, duration and severity of the "refining fire". This is good. At least Salvation is sure and a believer will answer for his works.

Did you really grasp those scriptures? How about this one in particular...Psa 103:10 He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities.

Here rewarded (since it is not a gift) must be speaking about our works of iniquities. No?

Even so, either the scripture is true or it is not. Either iniquities are covered as it says or they are not. You cannot on your own decide that some iniquities (Matt 7's) are not covered for the believer. The proper scripture interpreting scripture conclusion would have to be Matt 7 is NOT speaking of believers BECAUSE other scripture states CLEARLY that all iniquities are covered by the blood and NOT held against believers! There is just no way around this fact. That begins at rebirth and is a done deal!

Again, we are so very close. Absolutely, I agree that the iniquities are 100% covered in an eternal sense. But consider this, if God chastens us at all, he must have a good reason. And that "good reason" is not covered in a temporal sense from consequences (even though absolutely covered in an eternal sense.)

In other words, even the sins we are chastened for (in this life or at the JSOC) are still very much eternally covered by the blood. But He chastens us nontheless.

I am sorry, but you just have to accept the wonderful grace and mercy that is in Jesus Christ. It is hard to fathom, but His ways are indeed special and not our ways! Praise Him!!

God Bless! :thumbs:

Defenders of Millennial Exclusion are historically the most ardent protectors of the doctrine of God's grace and mercy, the most unashamed teachers of eternal security, and torch bearers for Free Grace.

Robert Govett
SS Craig
DM Panton
GH Lang
GH Pember
RE Neighbour
AE Wilson
JA Seiss
WF Roadhouse
Eric Sauer
GNH Peters
J. Hudson Taylor
Watchman Nee
Paul Radar
AG Tinley
Oswald J Smith
William P Clark
WH Griffith Thomas
Jessie Penn-Lewis
Phillip Muaro
JR Graves
Anthony Norris Groves
Joseph Mede