Does God Know you?

[steaver]

But consider this, if God chastens us at all, he must have a good reason. And that "good reason" is not covered in a temporal sense from consequences (even though absolutely covered in an eternal sense.)

God chasens us for our good, so we may learn and not do it again. Does God punish us or are we actually punishing ourselves because of the forces of good and evil that God has already put in place and these forces by there very nature create a cause and effect?

What possible good can be learned from spending 1000 years in torture when there is no possible chance at all that one can still sin on the other side of mortality?

Your 1000 years of torture would be simply pure punishment and no lesson to learn for it will never be repeated again in eternity. These will come out of their punishment and join the rest in blissful paradise for ever and ever.

So then what is the "good reason" for sending a child to darkness? What can the child learn in darkness that it might be careful to never do again? Remember, sin is gone on the other side. No more temptation, no more lack of love for God. No more disobedience.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[J. Jump]

Your 1000 years of torture would be simply pure punishment and no lesson to learn for it will never be repeated again in eternity.

God said He is not to be mocked you will reap what you sow. If you sow to the flesh you will reap corruption. If you sow to the Spirit you will reap life.

That has nothing to do with eternal salvation, so unless someone is going to reap corruption for eternity where do you suggest that comes into play?

He also said that we will be rewarded for what we have done in the body whether good or bad. Payment is going to be given whether good or bad.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Praise God, we're finally getting to the good questions.

God chasens us for our good, so we may learn and not do it again. Does God punish us or are we actually punishing ourselves because of the forces of good and evil that God has already put in place and these forces by there very nature create a cause and effect?

God punishes us.

Psalms 89:28-33
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.

What possible good can be learned from spending 1000 years in torture when there is no possible chance at all that one can still sin on the other side of mortality?

That is not a question for you or me. God killed believers in 1 Corinthians 11:30-31. You could ask the same question of them.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

What possible good did they learn?

Perhaps it was for the good of the church.
Ananias, together with his wife Sapphire, were also chastened with death for this reason.

Acts 5:10-11
10 Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
11 And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

Esau lost irrevocably his birthright. The foolish virgins were locked out. The Children of Israel were under the blood, passed through the water and were excluded from the kingdom for lack of faith. These pictures are a warning to us who believe to live right now.

Chastizement isn't always to "bring us back into line." Ultimately, in any form of familial chastening, there must be a "what happens if I absolutely refuse to obey."

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.

Your 1000 years of torture would be simply pure punishment and no lesson to learn for it will never be repeated again in eternity. These will come out of their punishment and join the rest in blissful paradise for ever and ever.

They will come out like a child after a well deserved spanking.

Proverbs 20:30 The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.

So then what is the "good reason" for sending a child to darkness?

Hebrews 10:28-31
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

What can the child learn in darkness that it might be careful to never do again?

That is not the point when the day of recompense comes. The point is don't get caught not watching.

Luke 12:45-47
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

Remember, sin is gone on the other side. No more temptation, no more lack of love for God. No more disobedience.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Again, not all chastening is corrective. Some is punitive. God warns us of real future punishment to motivate us now. He won't say, "Not really, I was just trying to get you to be good" to those who fail to heed the warnings.

Galatians 6:
1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.
4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.
7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8 For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.



KJV Matthew 25:19-30
19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

 

[steaver]

God warns us of real future punishment to motivate us now.

As I mingle with the body of Christ, I find that the lazy are not motivated by warnings of losses, whatever that may be defined as, and I see the loyal motivated by only love for their Savior. I don't find anyone who tells me they are working to stay out of the darkness that is to come for the lazy.

But the sad part is that in your view, even those who are loving Jesus and doing the will of the Father are told "you still might be rejected" because those criers "thought" they were doing the will of the Father and found themselves left out!

This is sad. To teach a disciple to honor and obey as the scriptures teach BUT you can only hope you will reign with Christ. You may have to go to outer darkness even if you tried your best. Boy, that really motivates me!

You know, your view may have some motivation merit if you did not slip in that "unknown" part. But I guess you have to in order to salvage Matt 7 as an example for entering the Kingdom.

God Bless!

 

[Lacy Evans]

As I mingle with the body of Christ, I find that the lazy are not motivated by warnings of losses, whatever that may be defined as, and I see the loyal motivated by only love for their Savior. I don't find anyone who tells me they are working to stay out of the darkness that is to come for the lazy.

Love is a scriptural motivator but the hope of reward/fear of God is also scriptural:

Ephesians 5:2-5
2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.
3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;
4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

KJV Ecclesiastes 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

Colossians 3:23-25
23 And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;
24 Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.
25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:

Matthew 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

2 John 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.

These scriptures are commands to serve God by seeking his positive reward and avoiding the negative.

But the sad part is that in your view, even those who are loving Jesus and doing the will of the Father are told "you still might be rejected" because those criers "thought" they were doing the will of the Father and found themselves left out!

This is sad. To teach a disciple to honor and obey as the scriptures teach BUT you can only hope you will reign with Christ. You may have to go to outer darkness even if you tried your best. Boy, that really motivates me!

You know, your view may have some motivation merit if you did not slip in that "unknown" part. But I guess you have to in order to salvage Matt 7 as an example for entering the Kingdom.

God Bless!

I cannot do anything to soften the severity of the doctrine. I have already shown you that there is never absolute assurance when it comes to reward. I'm going to say something that might sound harsh but I mean it in love.

You seem to be very critical of my particular POV when it comes to very serious negative rewards no matter how much I show you scripture. But were you ever that critical of the doctrine of rewards when it only taught that you might lose a couple of jewels in your crown (In a place where the streets are made of gold).

Did you ever once ask, "How good do I have to be to get a reward?" In light of the commands I posted above concerning God's desire for us to seek reward, have we really sought them actively? Have we been concerned about losing them. (And I assure you there's about a kazillion verses that say we can lose crowns, the prize, and the Kingdom itself.)

If not, if our discussion of Millennial Exclusion does nothing else than to awaken in you a desire to seek and secure the wonderful conditional promises that accompany the GREAT UNCONDITIONAL promise, then I praise God.

Hebrews 6:7-12
7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
10 For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.
11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

God Bless,
Lacy

 

[bound]

You misunderstood what I said. God's absolute omniscience is one of the main reasons that I believe he is not using the word "know" in an absolute sense.

It would be silly to teach that God was saying "Wow! I wasn't even aware that you existed." I think we agree?

Absolutely, we are in agreement here but I believe your original question is misleading... It shouldn't be "Does God Know you?" but rather "Do you Know God?".

So for an omniscient God to say, "I never knew you," and it still make sense, he must be using the word "Know" in a different way. My agreement (along with proof texts) was that often the word "know" is progressive and refers to intimacy rather than just awareness.

I believe I know where you are coming from but I see this not as a revelation for God but for the individual whom believed he lived in intimacy with God. When our Saviour stated "I never knew you", He was speaking with regard to the 'presumption of those whom would claim intimacy with God'.

Your Thoughts?

 

[steaver]

These scriptures are commands to serve God by seeking his positive reward and avoiding the negative.

I agree, but your pov adds, However you might deligently seek to follow God's commands and still go into darkness. NOwhere is this written yet you use Matt 7 to declare that it is so and in so doing you make the doctrine hopeless.

In light of the commands I posted above concerning God's desire for us to seek reward, have we really sought them actively? Have we been concerned about losing them.

And if we are? And if we really sought them actively? We still could end up rejected, a surprise! Like those in Matt 7. Where is my motivation?

(And I assure you there's about a kazillion verses that say we can lose crowns, the prize, and the Kingdom itself.)

Can you give me just one that says we can lose our crowns?

If not, if our discussion of Millennial Exclusion does nothing else than to awaken in you a desire to seek and secure the wonderful conditional promises that accompany the GREAT UNCONDITIONAL promise, then I praise God.

Seeking is what you correctly teach. Security is not there!

God Bless!

 

[Lacy Evans]

Can you give me just one that says we can lose our crowns?

Seeking is what you correctly teach. Security is not there!

God Bless!

You lose reward by not attaining to it.

2 Timothy 2:5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

Revelation 3:11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

1 Corinthians 9:25-26
25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible.
26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

Also a crown is just a shiny hat without the Kingdom rule that it is associated with, so Kingdom loss and crown loss are synonomous.

2 Samuel 12:30 And he took their king's crown from off his head, the weight whereof was a talent of gold with the precious stones: and it was set on David's head. And he brought forth the spoil of the city in great abundance.

Acts 14:22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2 Timothy 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Thessalonians 1
4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

And some verses that plainly tell us what beehaviors will disqualify us if not repented of.

1 Corinthians 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1 Corinthians 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

2 Peter 1:5-11
5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Paul didn't know for sure.

Philippians 3:12-15
12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

 

[Lacy Evans]

I believe I know where you are coming from but I see this not as a revelation for God but for the individual whom believed he lived in intimacy with God. When our Saviour stated "I never knew you", He was speaking with regard to the 'presumption of those whom would claim intimacy with God'.

Your Thoughts?

I agree. But the main question/warning is whether when we stand at the JSOC (having lived out our Christian walk) will we be found as having been intimate with our savior, or will he be forced to say, "I never knew you"?

If all "I know you not" means is that we aren't saved, then I guess we've nothing to be worried about.

Everyone is obedient! Everyone gets rewards! Hurrah!

But I see a different Judgment Seat Of Christ.

2 Corinthians 5:9-11
9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

 

[Hope of Glory]

When discussing crowns, it's important to remember there are two words associated with crowns, stephanos and diadema. Below is every occurrence of both, and you can click the link to download the parsing of each verse. Diadema has to do with sovereignty, while stephanos has to do with a victor’s wreath (crown) or reward. We can earn a stephanos, but diadema only has to do with the Godhead.

Stephanos can be found in: Stephanos )
MAT 27: 29 MAR 15: 17 JON 19: 2 JON 19: 5 1CO 9: 25 PHL 4: 1
1TH 2: 19 2TM 4: 8 JAM 1: 12 1PE 5: 4 REV 2: 10 REV 3: 11
REV 4: 4 REV 4: 10 REV 6: 2 REV 9: 7 REV 12: 1 REV 14: 14

Diadema can be found in: (Diadema )
[FONT=&quot]REV 12: 3 REV 13: 1 REV 19: 12[/FONT]

 

[Lacy Evans]

When discussing crowns, it's important to remember there are two words associated with crowns, stephanos and diadema. Below is every occurrence of both, and you can click the link to download the parsing of each verse. Diadema has to do with sovereignty, while stephanos has to do with a victor’s wreath (crown) or reward. We can earn a stephanos, but diadema only has to do with the Godhead.

Stephanos can be found in: Stephanos )
MAT 27: 29 MAR 15: 17 JON 19: 2 JON 19: 5 1CO 9: 25 PHL 4: 1
1TH 2: 19 2TM 4: 8 JAM 1: 12 1PE 5: 4 REV 2: 10 REV 3: 11
REV 4: 4 REV 4: 10 REV 6: 2 REV 9: 7 REV 12: 1 REV 14: 14

Diadema can be found in: (Diadema )
[FONT=&quot]REV 12: 3 REV 13: 1 REV 19: 12[/FONT]

I can't argue. I don't know enough about Greek. (I generally have no use for "The Greek", but that is another thread.) However just a casual study has yielded a couple of verses in which "Diadema" seems to be used to denote rule and authority and not just victory.

Hebrews 2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

Revelation 6:2 And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Both examples that you gave are "stephanos", not "diadema".

BTW, the two are not necessarily exclusive. One who earns and wears a "stephanos" can also rule, but as a victor, not as royalty.

Also, I didn't express myself exactly the way that I meant when I said that "diadema" only has to do wit the Godhead. I mean in the Scriptures, that's the only way it's referenced.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Both examples that you gave are "stephanos", not "diadema".

Der! That's what I meant. My bad. (Makes no sense the other way huh?)

BTW, the two are not necessarily exclusive. One who earns and wears a "stephanos" can also rule, but as a victor, not as royalty.

That's kinda what I was getting at



lacy

 

[Lacy Evans]

Hey BobRyan,

You forgot my questions.

We disagree on eternal security.

So here are some questions. Please give scriptures.

• How much sin do I have to do, in order to overwhelm the power of Christ's blood and lose my salvation? (If your position is correct, Heb10:26 MUST teach that one willful sin can send us irrevocably spiraling into an eternal LOF)
• Can I ever know I am saved for sure, 100% positive that I will never lose it?
• If I can't know for sure, then how do I ever get saved, because knowing/believing that Christ paid ALL of my sin debt is part of being saved?
• What is meant by the phrase "Never thirst again"?
• Please prove from the OT scriptures that at least one Israelite who looked at the brass serpent, went back and was killed by the snakes.
• Please explain what the phrase "born again" means, and in so doing show how someone can enter back into the womb (Physically or spiritually) again.
• Please explain how requiring works to "stay saved" is essentially different from requiring works to"be saved".

PS. Is God the same as "the Kingdom of God"? It's a yes or no questions . . Two, at the most three (if you want to get it wrong:tonofbricks keystrokes!


Love, lacy

 

[James_Newman]

Christ must be the foundation. No man can lay any other foundation and have it accepted. All works NOT built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ are unacceptable from the start.

What was missing from the criers works? The foundation of Jesus Christ!

(24)..Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (25)..And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Now compare that to the workers of iniquities.....

(26)...And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

The criers had no rock, no Jesus Christ. They had sand.

The criers had no works meet for repentance.

Why do you declare that viewing the passage in regards to eternal salvation would make the passage a works-based message? Jesus explains why their pleas of wonderful works was rejected. No foundation in Him and He never knew them. "Depart from me, ye workers of iniquities" is a dirrect point to their own cries that they should be accepted because of their works, nothing more. To the contrary of a claimed works-based salvation view Jesus is decalring works will not save anyone.

Here is the key points;
1) they were rejected because "I never knew you" (period) Do not add "for your works".
2) they were answered "workers of iniquities" because they had wanted works to justify themselves before God APPART from any foundation in Christ.

I don't see how it can say anything else UNLESS you add and speculate, the very thing I get accused of.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Why are you arguing the figurative and ignoring the literal? Jesus said they were likened to a man that had built his house on sand, because they literally did not do the works that Jesus spoke of.

 

[James_Newman]

As I mingle with the body of Christ, I find that the lazy are not motivated by warnings of losses, whatever that may be defined as, and I see the loyal motivated by only love for their Savior. I don't find anyone who tells me they are working to stay out of the darkness that is to come for the lazy.

Funny, in this thread you find five of us who are saying they are motivated by fear of losing the kingdom.

But the sad part is that in your view, even those who are loving Jesus and doing the will of the Father are told "you still might be rejected" because those criers "thought" they were doing the will of the Father and found themselves left out!

This is sad. To teach a disciple to honor and obey as the scriptures teach BUT you can only hope you will reign with Christ. You may have to go to outer darkness even if you tried your best. Boy, that really motivates me!

You know, your view may have some motivation merit if you did not slip in that "unknown" part. But I guess you have to in order to salvage Matt 7 as an example for entering the Kingdom.

God Bless!

Brother Lacy is to polite to point out the problem with this reasoning. If the "unknown" part doesn't apply to reward for believers, then it applies to eternal salvation. You are saying that I may live my life thinking that I am truly a saved disciple of Christ, only to find out that I never really had a saving relationship with the Lord and can be cast away not for a thousand years, but all eternity.

 

[J. Jump]

You are saying that I may live my life thinking that I am truly a saved disciple of Christ, only to find out that I never really had a saving relationship with the Lord and can be cast away not for a thousand years, but all eternity.

Interesting point. I have never thought about it like that.

 

[steaver]

(James)...If the "unknown" part doesn't apply to reward for believers, then it applies to eternal salvation. You are saying that I may live my life thinking that I am truly a saved disciple of Christ, only to find out that I never really had a saving relationship with the Lord and can be cast away not for a thousand years, but all eternity.

Why? The "unknown" part is from your pov. I don't see your "unknown" pov in scripture. If it does not exist then how does it default then to eternal security for me? It only would from your pov.

My foundation is not built upon "unknowns". I know from scripture what works will be accepted and what works will not. I know from scripture what works will be burned and what works will not. I know from scripture that I will have some works that burn and some that will not.

My Hope of Glory is in all the promisses of God through Jesuis Christ. I do not doubt the word of God when it tells me to Do the will of the Father that #1 He has told me what that will is and #2 when I do it I will not somehow be surprised that I have not done it.

I have a true Hope of Glory because i have a knowledge of right and wrong given me in Christ and His word. I do not have to fear my Savior. I do not have to "hope" He will accept me for my works. I trust He will burn out the bad in me and refine the good. I WELCOME His refining fire! I look forward to it! Lest I should believe that I have been PERFECT!

There is no fear for me "in that day". There is for your pov. I do not believe God tells me how to do good and then when i believe I have done it He will say "but i never knew you for your works". God does not tell me how to run the race and then say "sorry, you made a mistake back in July of 2007, now I know your sincerely don't remember it nor thought you even did make a mistake, but nonetheless, off to the torture chambers with ya"!

My "Hope of Glory" is based on God's Word being true, it is based on Christ in me!

The only "hope of glory" I see in your doctrine is hope in yourself. You hope you will be accepted. That is not "Hope of Glory". That is "hope of acceptance"

I do not hope to be accepted. I know I will be accepted. That is a different kind of Hope then yours. God has equiped me with Jesus Christ and has equiped me with His word. It is very silly to believe that God has instructed us what to do and how to do it just to find ourselves cast into outerdarkness after having done our very best to do as He has said. That is preaching "HOPELESSNESS"!!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

Why? The "unknown" part is from your pov. I don't see your "unknown" pov in scripture. If it does not exist then how does it default then to eternal security for me? It only would from your pov.

My foundation is not built upon "unknowns". I know from scripture what works will be accepted and what works will not. I know from scripture what works will be burned and what works will not. I know from scripture that I will have some works that burn and some that will not.

My Hope of Glory is in all the promisses of God through Jesuis Christ. I do not doubt the word of God when it tells me to Do the will of the Father that #1 He has told me what that will is and #2 when I do it I will not somehow be surprised that I have not done it.

I have a true Hope of Glory because i have a knowledge of right and wrong given me in Christ and His word. I do not have to fear my Savior. I do not have to "hope" He will accept me for my works. I trust He will burn out the bad in me and refine the good. I WELCOME His refining fire! I look forward to it! Lest I should believe that I have been PERFECT!

There is no fear for me "in that day". There is for your pov. I do not believe God tells me how to do good and then when i believe I have done it He will say "but i never knew you for your works". God does not tell me how to run the race and then say "sorry, you made a mistake back in July of 2007, now I know your sincerely don't remember it nor thought you even did make a mistake, but nonetheless, off to the torture chambers with ya"!

My "Hope of Glory" is based on God's Word being true, it is based on Christ in me!

The only "hope of glory" I see in your doctrine is hope in yourself. You hope you will be accepted. That is not "Hope of Glory". That is "hope of acceptance"

I do not hope to be accepted. I know I will be accepted. That is a different kind of Hope then yours. God has equiped me with Jesus Christ and has equiped me with His word. It is very silly to believe that God has instructed us what to do and how to do it just to find ourselves cast into outerdarkness after having done our very best to do as He has said. That is preaching "HOPELESSNESS"!!

God Bless! :thumbs:

I think you are misunderstanding what we believe to a degree. I believe God's will is pretty clear for believers, and we should have a certain confidence if we are walking in fellowship with Christ and obeying His commandments. I don't believe any of us can say with certainty that we are absolutely obeying those commandments, and we must constantly examine ourselves and search the scriptures, allowing the Holy Spirit to continue to work in us to bring us ever closer to the goal of perfection. This is nothing shocking, I think most people would agree.

Philippians 3:13-14
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Whatever this prize Paul is referring to is, it is something that we strive to obtain our whole lives. We don't sit down and say 'I know I have it coming to me', unless perhaps, like Paul, God reveals this to us at the end of our ministry.

But to say that this verse is speaking of unsaved people:
Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
This would imply that any one of us might come to the same false conclusion, and be none the wiser.

 

[steaver]

(James)...Why are you arguing the figurative and ignoring the literal? Jesus said they were likened to a man that had built his house on sand, because they literally did not do the works that Jesus spoke of.

Scripture interprets scripture. Your pov declares that Matt 7 as well as 1 Cr 3 is the JSOC.

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Cr 10:4)

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Cr 3:11)

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" (12)

As you can see, ALL of the men spoken of here are building on the foundation of Jesus Christ. NONE are building on sand here. We know all of these workers are saved because of several reasons spoken of in this passage but these two are the topic at hand #1 They are building on the foundation of Jesus Christ #2 verse (15) "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

You don't believe that rock and sand are both scriptural figures of Christ do you?

Now back to the "Therefore" example of Christ.....

Originally Posted by steaver
Christ must be the foundation. No man can lay any other foundation and have it accepted. All works NOT built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ are unacceptable from the start.

What was missing from the criers works? The foundation of Jesus Christ!

(24)..Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (25)..And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Now compare that to the workers of iniquities.....

(26)...And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

The criers had no rock, no Jesus Christ. They had sand.

The criers had no works meet for repentance.


Here is the key points;
1) they were rejected because "I never knew you" (period) Do not add "for your works".
2) they were answered "workers of iniquities" because they had wanted works to justify themselves before God APPART from any foundation in Christ.

I don't see how it can say anything else UNLESS you add and speculate, the very thing I get accused of.

Jesus said they were likened to a man that had built his house on sand, because they literally did not have the proper foundation that is Jesus Christ. "I never knew you"



God Bless! :thumbs: