Does God Know you?

[James_Newman]

Scripture interprets scripture. Your pov declares that Matt 7 as well as 1 Cr 3 is the JSOC.

"And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Cr 10:4)

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (1 Cr 3:11)

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" (12)

As you can see, ALL of the men spoken of here are building on the foundation of Jesus Christ. NONE are building on sand here. We know all of these workers are saved because of several reasons spoken of in this passage but these two are the topic at hand #1 They are building on the foundation of Jesus Christ #2 verse (15) "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

You don't believe that rock and sand are both scriptural figures of Christ do you?

Now back to the "Therefore" example of Christ.....

Originally Posted by steaver
Christ must be the foundation. No man can lay any other foundation and have it accepted. All works NOT built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ are unacceptable from the start.

What was missing from the criers works? The foundation of Jesus Christ!

(24)..Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: (25)..And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Now compare that to the workers of iniquities.....

(26)...And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

The criers had no rock, no Jesus Christ. They had sand.

The criers had no works meet for repentance.


Here is the key points;
1) they were rejected because "I never knew you" (period) Do not add "for your works".
2) they were answered "workers of iniquities" because they had wanted works to justify themselves before God APPART from any foundation in Christ.

I don't see how it can say anything else UNLESS you add and speculate, the very thing I get accused of.

Jesus said they were likened to a man that had built his house on sand, because they literally did not have the proper foundation that is Jesus Christ. "I never knew you"



God Bless! :thumbs:

Each figure must be interpreted by its context. I'm not saying that the Rock isn't Jesus, I'm saying that building on the rock in the passage is the figure, and the literal is doing the works. Doing the works is what is likened to building on the rock. Whether or not the rock is Jesus is beside the point. If the passage is talking about eternal salvation, the way to 'build on the rock' is to do the works.

 

[steaver]

(James)...But to say that this verse is speaking of unsaved people:
Matthew 7:22-23
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

This would imply that any one of us might come to the same false conclusion, and be none the wiser.

How would it? Only if you speculate that those criers had been regenerated, but Jesus clarifys that He never knew them and then further clarifys that their works that they are boasting about (works based salvation) are worthless because they were not built upon Himself.

I know my Savior and He knows me. If Jesus says He never knew me then He would be found a liar by His own word. God cannot lie. If God says "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" then God cannot turn around and say to those He knows "I never knew you".

Scripture interpreting the scripture tells the reader that those spoken of in Matt 7 must be UNSAVED. Any other conclusion is not only speculative appart from other scriptures but defeated outright by God's full counsel.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

How would it? Only if you speculate that those criers had been regenerated, but Jesus clarifys that He never knew them and then further clarifys that their works that they are boasting about (works based salvation) are worthless because they were not built upon Himself.

I know my Savior and He knows me. If Jesus says He never knew me then He would be found a liar by His own word. God cannot lie. If God says "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" then God cannot turn around and say to those He knows "I never knew you".

Scripture interpreting the scripture tells the reader that those spoken of in Matt 7 must be UNSAVED. Any other conclusion is not only speculative appart from other scriptures but defeated outright by God's full counsel.

God Bless! :thumbs:

If we are going to allow scripture to interpret scripture, then what day is He talking about when He says 'many shall say to me in that day'?

 

[steaver]

If the passage is talking about eternal salvation, the way to 'build on the rock' is to do the works.

The passage destroys a works based salvation. You are presenting the criers as confident they are going into glory. The context does not portray this. Knowing the full context of the passage the criers have found themselves between a rock and a hard place so to speak. Judgment day has come and just like the five foolish virgins they know they are in a heap of trouble. They try to plea their way out by pointing to wonderful works. They are rejected because "I never knew you". The works mean NOTHING for salvation and never do. The criers wanted their works to save them. This does not translate into a "do good works and be saved" pov. It is a "know Christ and be known of Him because NO works even of any good intentions are going to save you" pov.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Lacy Evans]

My foundation is not built upon "unknowns". I know from scripture what works will be accepted and what works will not. I know from scripture what works will be burned and what works will not. I know from scripture that I will have some works that burn and some that will not.

Our foundation is not what we are debating. You keep trying to pull us back into something that we already agree with you on. We also know (in proportion to how much we study the word) what will and won't be accepted. Praise God for His Word! What none of knows is how and with what attitude we will perform the commanded works tomorrow.

My Hope of Glory is in all the promisses of God through Jesuis Christ. I do not doubt the word of God when it tells me to Do the will of the Father that #1 He has told me what that will is and #2 when I do it I will not somehow be surprised that I have not done it.

You keep saying this. I think you misunderstand my position. The Word promises that if we are obedient, faithful, merciful, and watchful we will inherit all the promises that are contingent upon obedience, mercy, faithfulness and watchfulness. The criers problems was not that they were disobedient but didn't know it. They were counting on their own standards but never "Knew Christ". Whatever they did do, they were disobedient somewhere (see Matt7:21, 24 on either side of the "I-never-Knew-You" warning.)

No one has said that if you are good you won't get in, or even that you might not get in. Quite the contrary. The whole message of the Kingdom is that we have every gift we need to get in so let's go take

Numbers 13:30 And Caleb stilled the people before Moses, and said, Let us go up at once, and possess it; for we are well able to overcome it. it!

Our doubt is not in the promise of God, our doubt is inour self, in not being presumptuous enough to think we could never fall.

1 Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

In fact the fact that we could fall is one of the very things that motivates us to trust in God's strength and not our own.

If every racer automatically won first place, who would work out, who would practice, who would deny himself to win the Gold Medal?

I have a true Hope of Glory because i have a knowledge of right and wrong given me in Christ and His word. I do not have to fear my Savior. I do not have to "hope" He will accept me for my works. I trust He will burn out the bad in me and refine the good. I WELCOME His refining fire! I look forward to it! Lest I should believe that I have been PERFECT!

YIKES! Looking forward to fire? Seems like there is a much easier way to be refined.

1 Corinthians 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Revelation 3:2-3
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.

There is no fear for me "in that day". There is for your pov.

There is fear if words mean anything!!

2 Corinthians 5:10-11
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

I do not believe God tells me how to do good and then when i believe I have done it He will say "but i never knew you for your works". God does not tell me how to run the race and then say "sorry, you made a mistake back in July of 2007, now I know your sincerely don't remember it nor thought you even did make a mistake, but nonetheless, off to the torture chambers with ya"!

I agree. You are absolutely correct. That position is not in the Bible.

My "Hope of Glory" is based on God's Word being true, it is based on Christ in me!

Me too.

I do not hope to be accepted. I know I will be accepted.

If you do what the word says to do, and don't do what the Word says will disqualify you, then you can be confident. That is what the Bible says.

But I know I won't be accepted if I fail to run, wrestle, strive, forgive, obey, etc.

It is very silly to believe that God has instructed us what to do and how to do it just to find ourselves cast into outerdarkness after having done our very best to do as He has said. That is preaching "HOPELESSNESS"!!

God Bless! :thumbs:

Again, I absolutely agree with all of that. We have been talking about what would happen if a Born Again Believer who knows what to do, knows how to do it, and is empowered to do it by the Holy Ghost and CHOOSES NOT TO DO IT!

God bless,
Lacy

 

[James_Newman]

The passage destroys a works based salvation. You are presenting the criers as confident they are going into glory. The context does not portray this. Knowing the full context of the passage the criers have found themselves between a rock and a hard place so to speak. Judgment day has come and just like the five foolish virgins they know they are in a heap of trouble. They try to plea their way out by pointing to wonderful works. They are rejected because "I never knew you". The works mean NOTHING for salvation and never do. The criers wanted their works to save them. This does not translate into a "do good works and be saved" pov. It is a "know Christ and be known of Him because NO works even of any good intentions are going to save you" pov.

God Bless! :thumbs:

You are once again ignoring Christs words. I realize that no man is saved by works. But this passage is dealing with works.

Matthew 7:24
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

It doesn't say 'whosoever believes on me and rests in the finished work of the cross'.

 

[Lacy Evans]

Chastened in Hell?

sorry wrong thread

 

[Hope of Glory]

Ah, back to the ol' "'hope' is really 'assurance', but the Holy Spirit was too inarticulate to say that" argument.

"Hope" means "hope". We have the assurance that God's promises are good, and he has promised that if we are obedient, faithful, etc., we will inherit all the promises that are contingent upon these things.

There is no contingency in "believe [punctiliar] on the Lord Jesus and you will [with no doubt] be saved."

Just like the children of Israel were already in the promised land before they stepped foot outside their doors in the land of Goshen (a promised based upon nothing more than being in the family), they had to work (be faithful) to receive the promised land flowing with milk and honey.

 

[J. Jump]

Judgment day has come and just like the five foolish virgins they know they are in a heap of trouble.

Again the structure of the Greek sentence does not support your claim here. They fully expected to be accepted. They had no idea they were in a heap of trouble.

Your theory is just not supported.

Judgment day has come and just like the five foolish virgins they know they are in a heap of trouble.

And herein lies the rub again. Save them from what? You say eternal damnation, but that's not what the passage says. The whole context of Matthew 7 is the "kingdom." So do you think eternal life only lasts for a 1000 years and then we are all annihilated whether good or bad?

This is a kingdom message and the kingdom is 1000 years in length. Just another reason why this text is not regarding everlasting salvation. The context is a temporal kingdom.

 

[steaver]

Brothers, James, Jump, Lacy.

Here is the sticking point that has no resolution in your statements;

(Lacy)...Again, I absolutely agree with all of that. We have been talking about what would happen if a Born Again Believer who knows what to do, knows how to do it, and is empowered to do it by the Holy Ghost and CHOOSES NOT TO DO IT!

God bless,
Lacy

This is NOT what we have been talking about for the past several post. What we have been talking about is this;

(Jump)....They fully expected to be accepted. They had no idea they were in a heap of trouble.

Now, which is it? You two work it out between yourselves and then tell me which pov you want to go with.

My whole argument has been the "unknown" in your pov. That is even if I read the word of God and obey the word of God, I still cannot know for sure and could be surprised at the JSOC and be sent to prison. Let me know.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

(James)....You are once again ignoring Christs words. I realize that no man is saved by works. But this passage is dealing with works.

The passage is dealing with works, I agree.

Tell me, What is the reason given as to WHY the works were unacceptable?

a) you believe the criers were FULLY expecting to have their works accepted. Why?

b) your pov says they had no idea that they would be rejected. Why?

c) Is not doing many wonderful works in the name of Jesus DOING the will of the Father?

Why? Why was their works rejected IF they fully expected to have them accepted? What were they lacking?

My answer says they were lacking in the area of "I never knew you" (this is part of the passage, Jesus' words) and they were lacking in the area of having built their works upon a foundation of sand rather than upon the rock (figuatively Jesus Christ). (This also is in the passage, Jesus' words)

What is your answer? Why was these "wonderful works" done in the "name of Jesus" rejected?

And secondly, you did not address why those spoken of in 1 Cr 3 ALL had built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ and those in Matt 7 are split between building on the rock of Christ and building on sand?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

It's like pentecostals today. They are doing what they think are good works. But, one day, when they are expecting to be rewarded for it...

Now, many people think that it is demonic. I think it is in many cases. But, let's look to the type of the children of Israel. God's idea was for them to eat manna. Yet, they whined and complained, and God gave them what they wanted, but it made them sick. Well, those who practice speaking in tongues, etc., today, may not be demonic, but they may be getting what they're praying for, in spite of what God's plan is. One day, when they say, "Lord, Lord..." What do you think they will expect?

 

[James_Newman]

The passage is dealing with works, I agree.

Tell me, What is the reason given as to WHY the works were unacceptable?

a) you believe the criers were FULLY expecting to have their works accepted. Why?

b) your pov says they had no idea that they would be rejected. Why?

I would say that the works were unacceptable because they left the greater works undone.

c) Is not doing many wonderful works in the name of Jesus DOING the will of the Father?

Why? Why was their works rejected IF they fully expected to have them accepted? What were they lacking?

Jesus just gave a sermon telling what works He would have done.
Matthew 7:24
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
What sayings is He talking about? Not being angry with your brother without cause, not looking upon women to lust, loving your enemies, doing alms in secret, forgiving men their trespasses, etc... these are the things Jesus is speaking of.

My answer says they were lacking in the area of "I never knew you" (this is part of the passage, Jesus' words) and they were lacking in the area of having built their works upon a foundation of sand rather than upon the rock (figuatively Jesus Christ). (This also is in the passage, Jesus' words)

What is your answer? Why was these "wonderful works" done in the "name of Jesus" rejected?

Jesus condemned the Pharisees because they were meticulous in their tithing, but they left the greater works undone.

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

They were right to tithe, but they thought their good works were a covering for their sins. Christians often tend to think the same way.

Matthew 5:19-20
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

1 John 2:3-4
3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
If we aren't keeping His commandments, we don't know Him. This is the kind of knowing that Christ is talking about. We may believe, but if we don't obey Him, we will not enjoy the fruit of living a life in fellowship with Christ and we will not inherit the kingdom of God. Nevertheless we may still be raised up on the last day.

And secondly, you did not address why those spoken of in 1 Cr 3 ALL had built upon the foundation of Jesus Christ and those in Matt 7 are split between building on the rock of Christ and building on sand?

God Bless! :thumbs:

They are two different pictures and when you try to make all the pictures in the bible fit together, you end up with a mess. Is Jesus a lamb or a shepherd? He's both, depending on which picture you are looking at.

 

[James_Newman]

BTW, these are good questions. Youre making me think!

 

[steaver]

(James)....They were right to tithe, but they thought their good works were a covering for their sins. Christians often tend to think the same way.

This is your answer as to why the criers were rejected? I thought the covering of sins is about eternal salvation. I thought you was sticking to "the passage is speaking about works" not "your sins are not covered"? So they were rejected because they had sins? Is the passage about sins or about works?

(James)....If we aren't keeping His commandments, we don't know Him. This is the kind of knowing that Christ is talking about.

So your answer is they were rejected because they were sinners? Is this correct? It is all I gathered from your comments.

(James)...They are two different pictures and when you try to make all the pictures in the bible fit together, you end up with a mess. Is Jesus a lamb or a shepherd? He's both, depending on which picture you are looking at.

Very well, Can you please explain to me the two different pictures that are represented in the two different passages of the same JSOC? I can see that one passage divides the believer's foundation into sand and rock (Matt 7) and the other has the foundation the same, on rock (1 Cr 3). What do these two different pictures teach us from your pov?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Actually James, i asked what was the reason given?

(steaver)...Tell me, What is the reason given as to WHY the works were unacceptable?

In the passage, what was the reason given?

You said, "I would say that the works were unacceptable because they left the greater works undone."

But that is your speculation or maybe injecture because of your pov. The passage does not say this, does it? What does the passage give as a reason?

You said, "If we aren't keeping His commandments, we don't know Him. This is the kind of knowing that Christ is talking about."

Again I must ask, is this the reason given in the passage? How do you know this is the "knowing" that Christ is talking about? Is this written in the passage?

What reason is given in the passage?

I see at least two reasons given, I already posted them. A third reason I see is because Jesus said, "those who do the will of my Father" will be accepted and this must then mean that those criers did NOT do the will of the Father. Correct? Yet they did many wonderful works in the name of Jesus. What's up with that? Your pov argues that these are sincere Christians fully expecting acceptance, yet to their surprise! they are rejected. Are you not also a sincere Christian fully expecting acceptance? Yet you are not certain this very day if you should die that you might not find yourself just another crier, correct? That is what you guys call "hope of glory"!?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

This is your answer as to why the criers were rejected? I thought the covering of sins is about eternal salvation. I thought you was sticking to "the passage is speaking about works" not "your sins are not covered"? So they were rejected because they had sins? Is the passage about sins or about works?

Speaking about sins is speaking about works.
James 4:17
17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

As with anything, you have to rightly divide covering. Our sins are covered in regard to eternal salvation. They are covered by the blood of Christ, the only covering that could possibly save a man, for we know that no man is saved by works. But is that the only covering the bible speaks of?

1 Peter 4:8
8 And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.

Or what about James:

James 5:19-20
19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

1 John 1:9
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Why do sins that are already covered by the blood and forgiven need to be confessed and forgiven?

Proverbs 28:13
13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.

So your answer is they were rejected because they were sinners? Is this correct? It is all I gathered from your comments.



Very well, Can you please explain to me the two different pictures that are represented in the two different passages of the same JSOC? I can see that one passage divides the believer's foundation into sand and rock (Matt 7) and the other has the foundation the same, on rock (1 Cr 3). What do these two different pictures teach us from your pov?

God Bless! :thumbs:

The building in 1Cor 3 IMO is speaking of the church, not the individual believer. It is talking primarily about teachers, and warns that they will be held accountable for how they build upon the foundation of the church.

Matt 7, Jesus is illustrating a point, that if a believer is not doing the works He commands us to do, his hopes of entering the kingdom are baseless, as are the hopes of a man who built his house on sand that it will stand.

1 John 3:20-21
20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

If we have sins in our lives that we know of, how much greater is God? Does He not know of these sins? Whether they be sins of commission or omission, it doesn't matter.

 

[James_Newman]

Actually James, i asked what was the reason given?



In the passage, what was the reason given?

You said, "I would say that the works were unacceptable because they left the greater works undone."

But that is your speculation or maybe injecture because of your pov. The passage does not say this, does it? What does the passage give as a reason?

You said, "If we aren't keeping His commandments, we don't know Him. This is the kind of knowing that Christ is talking about."

Again I must ask, is this the reason given in the passage? How do you know this is the "knowing" that Christ is talking about? Is this written in the passage?

What reason is given in the passage?

I see at least two reasons given, I already posted them. A third reason I see is because Jesus said, "those who do the will of my Father" will be accepted and this must then mean that those criers did NOT do the will of the Father. Correct? Yet they did many wonderful works in the name of Jesus. What's up with that? Your pov argues that these are sincere Christians fully expecting acceptance, yet to their surprise! they are rejected. Are you not also a sincere Christian fully expecting acceptance? Yet you are not certain this very day if you should die that you might not find yourself just another crier, correct? That is what you guys call "hope of glory"!?

God Bless! :thumbs:

What is the will of the Father?

Ephesians 6:6-8
6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;
7 With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men:
8 Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free.

1 Thessalonians 4:3-7
3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:
4 That every one of you should know how to possess his vessel in sanctification and honor;
5 Not in the lust of concupiscence, even as the Gentiles which know not God:
6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.
7 For God hath not called us unto uncleanness, but unto holiness.

1 Thessalonians 5:14-18
14 Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
15 See that none render evil for evil unto any man; but ever follow that which is good, both among yourselves, and to all men.
16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

Doing great works doesn't give us a pass on the seemingly smaller things, which are not smaller in God's eyes. Paul put it this way:

1 Corinthians 13:1-3
1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.

Doing good works with the wrong motives or as an attempt to justify sin just causes the good works to stink.

Ecclesiastes 10:1
1 Dead flies cause the ointment of the apothecary to send forth a stinking savor: so doth a little folly him that is in reputation for wisdom and honor.

 

[steaver]

(James)...The building in 1Cor 3 IMO is speaking of the church, not the individual believer. It is talking primarily about teachers, and warns that they will be held accountable for how they build upon the foundation of the church.

With all due respect James, this is very unacceptable opinion by any long stretch of any imagination. Could you post the verses in this passage that would have you come to such a conclusion?

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour". (vs 8)

"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon." (vs 9)

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (vs 10)

(James)...Speaking about sins is speaking about works.

I appreciate the time you have given to post scriptures about sins and works and all. But, (and I don't want to sound like a broken record here), you have left quite a few of my questions unanswered. I accept your answer that sins and works are one and the same in this passage. That is I accept your answer, not that I agree with it. I just wanted to know your view upon it for now.

(steaver)...

In the passage, what was the reason given?

You said, "I would say that the works were unacceptable because they left the greater works undone."

But that is your speculation or maybe injecture because of your pov. The passage does not say this, does it? What does the passage give as a reason?

You said, "If we aren't keeping His commandments, we don't know Him. This is the kind of knowing that Christ is talking about."

Again I must ask, is this the reason given in the passage? How do you know this is the "knowing" that Christ is talking about? Is this written in the passage?

What reason is given in the passage?

(steaver)...
Very well, Can you please explain to me the two different pictures that are represented in the two different passages of the same JSOC? I can see that one passage divides the believer's foundation into sand and rock (Matt 7) and the other has the foundation the same, on rock (1 Cr 3). What do these two different pictures teach us from your pov?

You took an honest stab at this one, but unless you can post some verses that remotely suggest that 1 Cr 3 is NOT speaking to individuals and their individual judgment of works you will have to do some more thinking and try another angle to my question. You do believe this is the JSOC don't you? You do know that the JSOC is a judgment for ALL believers?

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;" (vs 12)

Need I post them all? Each verse speaks of every man's judgment day. You must show me where you find "the church as a whole" or "teachers only".

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

With all due respect James, this is very unacceptable opinion by any long stretch of any imagination. Could you post the verses in this passage that would have you come to such a conclusion?

"Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour". (vs 8)

"According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon." (vs 9)

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." (vs 10)

It's not really relevant, because I only said primarily teachers. The scriptures are certainly applicable to any man who labors in building the church. But in the picture the church is the building, not the builders.

1 Corinthians 3:5-13
5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
6 I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
7 So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase.
8 Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labor.
9 For we are laborers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.

Verse 8, he that planteth and he that watereth refers back to verse 6. Who planted? Paul. Who watered? Apollos. Then he changes from an agrarian metaphor to constructing a building, but it is the same thing. The church is God's husbandry, God's building. Those who plant and water are those who build on the foundation. Every man refers to every man who builds, every man who plants and waters. While this does apply to everyone who labors in the church, it is primarily talking about those in ministry. But the teaching is the same, regardless of who you apply it to.

I appreciate the time you have given to post scriptures about sins and works and all. But, (and I don't want to sound like a broken record here), you have left quite a few of my questions unanswered. I accept your answer that sins and works are one and the same in this passage. That is I accept your answer, not that I agree with it. I just wanted to know your view upon it for now.

(steaver)...

In the passage, what was the reason given?

You said, "I would say that the works were unacceptable because they left the greater works undone."

But that is your speculation or maybe injecture because of your pov. The passage does not say this, does it? What does the passage give as a reason?

You said, "If we aren't keeping His commandments, we don't know Him. This is the kind of knowing that Christ is talking about."

Again I must ask, is this the reason given in the passage? How do you know this is the "knowing" that Christ is talking about? Is this written in the passage?

What reason is given in the passage?

Yes, the reason given in the passage is that they are not keeping his commandments. I'll try to make it plain.

Matthew 7:21-27
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
- He that doesn't do the will of the Father will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
- Christ calls them 'ye that work iniquity'. Looking back, we can infer that they did not do the will of the father, or they would enter into the kingdom, correct? The question seems to be 'what is the will of the father'.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not; for it was founded upon a rock.
- The will of the Father is that you hear the words of the Son and do them. Whoever does so is likened to this wise man.

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
- The worker of iniquity that is likened unto this foolish man is the man that hears the words of the Son, but doesn't do them.