Does God Know you?

[James_Newman]

Why must Matt 7 be the JSOC? Were you taught this? Is this perfectly clear in the passage? Is there not other judgments spoken of in the scriptures that this judgment day might fit a bit closer to? Why do you believe it must be the JSOC?

God Bless! :thumbs:

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What day do believers enter into the kingdom of heaven?

 

[J. Jump]

Steaver the only judgment that I am aware of for folks that haven't accepted the Substitute is the Great White Throne judgment which happens "after" the kingdom.

Notice what this judgment is in reference to: Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

This is a judgment prior to the kingdom and it has to do with who gets in and who doesn't. ONLY saved people even have a chance to get into the kingdom so they are the only ones that are even possible to be judged.

Those not accepting the Substitute can't even stand in that judgment because they have already been condemned in this life for kingdom purposes.

 

[steaver]

(James)...You have to deal with works somewhere in your theology.
James 2:24
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

My "hope of glory" is Christ alone. My works will be judged and a position in Christ kingdom assigned.

(James)...I think if I were inclined I could build quite a case without ever addressing Matt 7. But your argument that they must be unbelievers because they only 'said' they did those things in Jesus' name could be used to cut out half the bible.

I would say that what it would cut out is half of your case! :thumbs: That is why you must cling onto it.

(James)...The 'nevertheless' is what keeps us from being presumptuous, and causes us to walk circumspectly. It's what causes us to rely on God rather than ourselves. If there were no chance that we could fall, we surely wouldn't have a bunch of warnings in the scriptures.

It does nothing for me. I do not presume, I do walk circumspectly, I do rely on God rather than myself ( in fact that is my line against your hope verses my hope).

So I abide by the warnings, I just understand the consequences differently than you.

This is all about rightly dividing Matt 7. It has nothing to do with us each walking two different paths to Christ kingdom. If I were to embrace your pov about outerdarkness it would change nothing in my walk with Christ. I already walk even as you do.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

There are plenty of believers who don't walk as you do who need the fear of God to motivate them. But when you deny any consequences for sin in the life of a believer, you rob them of that motivation and when they stand before God they will point a finger at those who told them they wouldn't ever be in that position.

 

[steaver]

(James)....There are plenty of believers who don't walk as you do who need the fear of God to motivate them. But when you deny any consequences for sin in the life of a believer, you rob them of that motivation and when they stand before God they will point a finger at those who told them they wouldn't ever be in that position.

Amen! I also need and have the fear of God that motivates me as well as love. I would never deny any consequences for sin, I already said this before, the difference between us is just what those consequences are.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

(James)....Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

What day do believers enter into the kingdom of heaven?

"in that day" is the day we (all the saints who fell asleep pre-trib and all the saints who were raptured before the tribulation) return with our Lord to earth with all the holy angels. (This is a judgment day for those surviving the tribulation) .

These believers will be with Christ and already in His physical kingdom of heaven that He brings to earth. Right now we are in the kingdom of heaven spiritually. Christ in you, the hope of glory.

"I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Cr 1)

"in this day" Christ will gather together all the nations for judgment of the sheep and the goats. Sheep are those "saved" (received Christ) while going through the tribulation, goats are those unsaved who rejected the gospel.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matt 25)

The scripture does not specifically say when or where the JSOC takes place, if it is all at once or done as each of us depart to heaven. The Great White Throne judgment is after the melliniem and is only for those appointed to the lake of fire. "That day" is not the JSOC. Scripture is clear that the JSOC is for believers only. "That day" judgment speaks of unbelievers verses believers.

God Bless! :thumbs:

ps. these are great questions! Makes me dig and keep refreshed in the Word! Praise Jesus! :jesus:

 

[steaver]

(James)...What day do believers enter into the kingdom of heaven?

In short, the day you received Christ as Lord you entered into the kingdom of heaven spiritually. Christ in you is your seal, your hope of glory! You will be in the litteral kingdom of heaven when Christ brings it to earth on "that day" . Praise His wonderful name!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in". (Matt 23)

Those wanting to enter into the kingdom of heaven through faith in Christ are being turned away by these hypocrites! The people rely upon the Pharisees to show them the way to the kingdom of heaven but go away empty. Niether do the Pharisees themselves enter in because they have not been born again.

"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God".
(John 3)

Those born of God can then see (understand) the kingdom of God (or heaven) around them in other believers. Those not born of God don't see it, or rather don't and can't even understand it.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[J. Jump]

If you believe the judgment of the sheep and goats is a judgment of eternally saved or eternally damned you have missed the mark again. The only thing on trial in that judgment is once again works. If they did the right works they are in and if they didn't they are out.

The only ones even capable of doing the right works are saved people. Unsaved folks don't even have a shot at doing the right thing. They can't. They are spiritually dead and incapable of operating in the spirit in a pleasing manner.

The separation of the sheep and the goats is a separation of the worthy and the unworthy. Unsaved poeple can't even be judged on that basis.

Again there is no judgment that man will ever face based on separating the eternally saved from the eternally damned in respect to Jesus Christ, the Lamb. There is not one single Scripture reference to such a judgment.

Judgment is ALWAYS about works.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...If you believe the judgment of the sheep and goats is a judgment of eternally saved or eternally damned you have missed the mark again. The only thing on trial in that judgment is once again works. If they did the right works they are in and if they didn't they are out.

The scriptures I provided prove you wrong. You will know them by their fruits. Works done as a child of God will be accepted. Works done apart from being a child of God will not. The works themselves do not save. Jesus shows them that their fruits declared their faith.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[J. Jump]

Jesus shows them that their fruits declared their faith.

No He doesn't. The text SAYS if you did the right thing you were in and if you did the wrong thing you were out. Not ONE SINGLE mention of His shed blood or death in their place.

By their fruits you will know them is speaking of false teachers and you are misapplying that by applying that to saved or unsaved. That is a distinguishing mark between someone that is teaching truth and someone that is leading people astray. It has NOTHING to do with whether they are saved or unsaved.

You think Binny Hinn is unsaved just because he teaches false doctrine? How about Joel Olsteen?

Their fruits show a saved person whether or not they should be leery of the teachings not whether or not they are saved. You are simply misapplying Scripture.

You are ripping it out of it's context and applying it to your pretext to come up with doctrine.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...Again there is no judgment that man will ever face based on separating the eternally saved from the eternally damned in respect to Jesus Christ, the Lamb. There is not one single Scripture reference to such a judgment.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matt 25)

There is the scripture that you say does not exist! The sheep and the goats and Jesus speaks about the works they did and Jesus curses the goats to "everlasting fire".

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[J. Jump]

There is the scripture that you say does not exist!

And yet once again there is NO MENTION of The Lamb and His Substitute. That is what saves not works. He NEVER says to them you didn't accept Me as your Substitute. He simply says they did the wrong works. You can't add to that, well He actually meant this. Just stick with what He SAID.

Here's another key phrase you keep missing "inherit the kingdom."

This is talking about a family matter. Those that are incapable of inheriting the kingdom will not be standing in front of the Judge at that time, because it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to have done the right works.

The goats had the opportunity to do the right thing they just chose not to. HUGE DIFFERENCE!

 

[James_Newman]

"in that day" is the day we (all the saints who fell asleep pre-trib and all the saints who were raptured before the tribulation) return with our Lord to earth with all the holy angels. (This is a judgment day for those surviving the tribulation) .

These believers will be with Christ and already in His physical kingdom of heaven that He brings to earth. Right now we are in the kingdom of heaven spiritually. Christ in you, the hope of glory.

"I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Cr 1)

"in this day" Christ will gather together all the nations for judgment of the sheep and the goats. Sheep are those "saved" (received Christ) while going through the tribulation, goats are those unsaved who rejected the gospel.

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matt 25)

The scripture does not specifically say when or where the JSOC takes place, if it is all at once or done as each of us depart to heaven. The Great White Throne judgment is after the melliniem and is only for those appointed to the lake of fire. "That day" is not the JSOC. Scripture is clear that the JSOC is for believers only. "That day" judgment speaks of unbelievers verses believers.

God Bless! :thumbs:

ps. these are great questions! Makes me dig and keep refreshed in the Word! Praise Jesus! :jesus:

2 Corinthians 5:10
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

All Christians will appear before the judgment seat of Christ, correct? The question you have is when does this occur? It won't occur before He returns.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Timothy 4:8
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

It would appear that that day applies to the same day for all believers. I see little evidence that there will be multiple judgment seat of Christ events.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...The goats had the opportunity to do the right thing they just chose not to. HUGE DIFFERENCE!

The goats went to everlasting fire. Huge difference indeed!

Now before you said the criers were sincere that they "thought they did good works". Now you filp to they "chose not to". Are you sure just what you want to say is the view?

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matt 25)


God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

Well, it's aionian fire.

However, the pictures and types we are given in Scripture is quite interesting:

Numbers 18:17: But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD.

So, do you think that the Lord refers to unsaved people as "clean"?

Can you show me in Scriptures where saved and unsaved people are judged at the same time and same place to determine whether they are saved or not?

 

[J. Jump]

The goats went to everlasting fire.

Might want to do a word study on aionios.

 

[steaver]

Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner James.

2 Thessalonians 2:1
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 Timothy 4:8
8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10
5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

It would appear that that day applies to the same day for all believers. I see little evidence that there will be multiple judgment seat of Christ events.

I don't see any conflict in my view with these scriptures you posted. In fact they support it. There is a "day" for the Judgment Seat of Christ for every believer. And there is a "day" for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ ushering in the kingdom of heaven literally to earth. As well as a "day" for the rapture of the church. Different days are spoken of in scripture, one should not assume that they are all one in the same everytime "that day" is spoken of.

I can understand how easy this would be to make this error, but if you truly accepted the passages that are very pointed to a specific doctrinal pov you would then be able to harmonize the meatier ones that take a deeper study.

Here is an example;

"I thank my God always on your behalf, for the grace of God which is given you by Jesus Christ;
That in every thing ye are enriched by him, in all utterance, and in all knowledge;
Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord." (1 Cr 1)

So here is a clear cut perfect word from our Lord that God is faithful and WILL CONFIRM YOU UNTO THE END, THAT YE MAY BE BLAMELESS IN THE DAY OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.

God will confirm you unto the end. WHY? That ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is God who will make sure you are confirmed blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. WHY? For the glory of what God has done and NOT for the glory of what men has done.

Here is what you guys are guilty of. The plan of sanctification is God working in you and through you to confirm you unto the end. You are God's workmanship (Eph 2:10) the more you yield the more you grow and the more you grow the more fruit you will produce. Some will have a little fruit, some will have alot of fruit, but to the glory of God all will have some fruit. It is God who will see it gets done that ye may be blameless to the glory of God not to the glory of you and what great works you have done. Sin is not a factor, sin was paid for at the cross. If you were to come to God with even one sin to your credit our Holy God would have no choice but to destroy you. You must come before Him blameless, sinless, and the only way for that is through Jesus Christ.

When you have scriptures such as these that make doctrinal points of view so absolutely clear, you need to take these perfect points and use them as your building blocks, then the other scriptures that take a bit of study can be rightly divided as to harmonize with them.

You guys basically ignore the obvious and search for a mystery. You are tripping over the simple to find the difficult. It is not difficult. Jesus made it as easy as for a little child to understand. One becomes mature in Christ when one has mastered the simplicity that is in Christ.

"My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation." (James 3:1)

"But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ." (2Cr 11:3)

Do you guys find your view in Christ a simple view? If it be so simple why are you so few? Oh, that's right, satanic attack. Satan is more powerful than the truth of God's word. I don't believe so. You are actually preaching another gospel, another Jesus, than the simplicity in Christ that Paul preached. You are forgiven for this beacuse you belong to Christ, but you will suffer loss at the JSOC. Careful how you build on the rock!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...Might want to do a word study on aionios.

"everlasting" "eternal".

Anything else?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

(Hope)...However, the pictures and types we are given in Scripture is quite interesting:

Numbers 18:17: But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD.

So, do you think that the Lord refers to unsaved people as "clean"?

Are you sure you have this in the right thread??? You lost me on this one!

(Hope)....Can you show me in Scriptures where saved and unsaved people are judged at the same time and same place to determine whether they are saved or not?

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matt 25)

God Bless! :thumbs: