Does God Know you?

[J. Jump]

"everlasting" "eternal".

Obviously you didn't do a "study" on the word. I mean go back and do some research on what aionios means and how folks used it in that day. Go back and do some research on the word eternal and see how folks used it prior to this day and age.

You might be surprised what you find out. The word doesn't mean what it has come to mean in today's Christian vernacular.

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...Obviously you didn't do a "study" on the word. I mean go back and do some research on what aionios means and how folks used it in that day. Go back and do some research on the word eternal and see how folks used it prior to this day and age.

You might be surprised what you find out. The word doesn't mean what it has come to mean in today's Christian vernacular.

I checked out what you wanted. It always comes back to context though doesn't it?

Here is what I found @ http://www.zianet.com/maxey/reflx74.htm

The reality is: "Forever" does not always mean forever ... at least, not in the sense that we normally take it. This may impact our traditional theology in some areas, a fact which greatly troubles some disciples .... although it shouldn't, if their quest is truly for ultimate Truth. For example, some believe the punishing (suffering, torture) of the wicked in the lake of fire will be without end ("eternal"), and they vehemently deny any qualitative aspect to aionios in this specific phrase. To suggest that "eternal punishment" (Matthew 25:46) could be anything other or less than endless torture is tantamount to heresy, to their way of thinking. However, is it just possible we have failed to fully perceive the significance of the concept of "eternal" when used with the reality of the final "punishment" of the wicked? Is it possible we have overlooked the qualitative aspect of this term? Is it also possible we have failed to distinguish between two key concepts with regard to the disposition of the unredeemed --- process and result? I believe we have.

Notice Matthew 25:46 --- "These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." The fates of both the unrighteous and the righteous are said to be "eternal." What are the fates of both? The promise to the righteous is LIFE. The promise to the unrighteous is DEATH. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 6:23). "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16). God has always placed before men two great destinies: life and death; the blessing and the curse (see: Deuteronomy 30:15-20). The punishment for sin and rebellion against God has always been DEATH. Both the reward and the punishment are said to be "eternal." But, eternal in what sense? Qualitative or quantitative? Or both?

I believe the overall context of God's Word on this matter indicates the answer is BOTH. Both the reward and the punishment will be of that other realm, not of this temporal one. In quality, it will far surpass anything we might imagine. However, quantitatively, both reward and punishment will endure without end. I believe Scripture also clearly portrays that reality. As Matthew 25:46 (quoted above) declares, the punishment and life are both "forever" -- for as long as the righteous are alive, the unrighteous will be dead.​

I agree with Al here. The context of Matt 25 declares it is forever and ever.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[J. Jump]

I checked out what you wanted. It always comes back to context though doesn't it?

It sure does and the context has never supported what you are trying to say.

Since you won't do the study let me just share with you. The Greek word aionios is derived from the Greek noun aion. Aion does not mean time without beginning or end. Do any research in how the word was used by folks in that day and it is ALWAYS used in reference to an age of time. The timeframe of how long an age lasted varied, but it always had a beginning and it always had an end.

For example an aion would speak of the reign of a king. The reign had a beginning and it had an end.

The adjective aionios is derived from aion therefore it can not exceed the meaning of the word it was derived from. Meaning aion can't mean time with a beginning and an end and aionios mean without beginning and end. That is linguistically impossible.

Aionios is not talking about everlasting life it is talking about age-lasting life or life for the age.

But I'm pretty sure that's not going to convince you either .

 

[Amy.G]

It sure does and the context has never supported what you are trying to say.

Since you won't do the study let me just share with you. The Greek word aionios is derived from the Greek noun aion. Aion does not mean time without beginning or end. Do any research in how the word was used by folks in that day and it is ALWAYS used in reference to an age of time. The timeframe of how long an age lasted varied, but it always had a beginning and it always had an end.

For example an aion would speak of the reign of a king. The reign had a beginning and it had an end.

The adjective aionios is derived from aion therefore it can not exceed the meaning of the word it was derived from. Meaning aion can't mean time with a beginning and an end and aionios mean without beginning and end. That is linguistically impossible.

Aionios is not talking about everlasting life it is talking about age-lasting life or life for the age.

But I'm pretty sure that's not going to convince you either .

Do you have a link to this information? How can we verify that eternal was used differently 2000 years ago?

 

[J. Jump]

Amy HoG and Lacy gave you hordes of information on this very topic in the Lordship salvation topic.

 

[Amy.G]

Amy HoG and Lacy gave you hordes of information on this very topic in the Lordship salvation topic.

I can't remember specific sources they cited that said that eternal had a different meaning 2000 years ago, especially since that subject took 2 threads and hundreds of posts. Could you please post it again? Is there a link on the web that I could look at, since I have no way to access books about this subject?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Do you have a link to this information? How can we verify that eternal was used differently 2000 years ago?

"Eternal" is an English word that has been around for about 650 years. I've posted the etymology here several times, but let me post it yet again: "c.1366 (in variant form eterne), from O.Fr. eternal, from L.L. æternalis, from L. æternus contraction of æviternus "of great age," from ævum "age." Eternity first attested c.1374. In the Mercian hymns, L. æternum is glossed by O.E. ecnisse."

It meant, "of great age". The English word is from the Latin "aeternus" (Latin Vulgate) which is from the Latin "aevum", which is "age". The Greek from which it is translated is the adjective "aionios" which is from the noun "age". I've not been able to find an English usage of the word "eternal" in the sense of "without beginning or ending" prior to the 18th century. (Doesn't mean it's not out there, and doesn't mean that it wasn't used in that way in speech, but I've not seen it.)

Most Greek grammars with which I am familiar state something along the lines of, "the semantic domain of an adjective cannot properly exceed the semantic domain of the noun from which it's formed." Then, some of them go on to say, "Except for this one case." Other ones argue that this one instance cannot properly be an exception, so "aionios" cannot mean "forever". How many examples of adjectives that exceed the semantic domains of the noun from which they are formed can you find?

However, if the Greek has a word (aidios) which means "without beginning or ending" (modern evolution of the word "eternal"), and the Greek has a phrase that means "forever and ever without ending" (from the ages unto the ages), why do you suppose that God would use a word that means "limited duration" to mean "forever"? Was he inarticulate or did he say what he meant to say?

Funny thing about it is that if you see the word "aionios" as "age-lasting" like it means, there is no OSAS argument whatsoever. The OSAS argument goes away because all the warnings that are given to saved people are aionian warnings.

However, there are two ironies here. Well, there are more ironies, but two in particular surrounding this word: There are those who see that these warnings are given to saved people, but see aionian life as being forever, so ignore the passages that state in no uncertain terms that OSAS is true, and the other group that does see that aionian life is limited in duration, and fail to see the warnings that are forever and ever.

The Bible spends little time talking about our spiritual (forever and ever) salvation (believe, punctiliar, on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved), and spends little time talking about the unsaved and their destiny (forever and ever in the lake of fire). Both are stated as facts, and the Bible moves on to how we should live our lives (works) and the warnings and exhorations surrounding how we live.

For that matter, the Bible is very negative. It spends little time talking about the postitives of if you hear "well done", but spends about 80% of the time talking about "if ya don't do good".

 

[J. Jump]

Yes just Google the word aionios and you'll have more reading material than you care to look at . By the way most of what you will find will be material from universalists that try to build a case using the word aionios or folks that say the unsaved (those that have not accepted the Substitutionary death and shed blood on their behalf) will not spend "eternity" in hell, but will actually be annihilated.

Please don't let that stop you from studying the "aionios" material out. They actually have some really good resource material on the word, but unfortunately they misapply eternal destruction or eternal punishment or eternal death as much as others in Christendom misapply eternal life.

They are both age-lasting. The destruction is age-lasting and the life is age-lasting. The reason being is because "both" are talking about saved individuals and saved individuals can not be destroyed for the endless ages, because they are saved.

The life and the death are both for the same time frame.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Are you sure you have this in the right thread??? You lost me on this one!



"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:" (Matt 25)

God Bless! :thumbs:

This would be called circular logic in using the conclusion as the "proof" for itself.

Is there a reference in the Bible that says the saved and unsaved are judged at the same time? (Hint: Do you think the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment are the same?)

And, why do you think that God calls unsaved people clean?

 

[steaver]

(Jump)...Do any research in how the word was used by folks in that day and it is ALWAYS used in reference to an age of time. The timeframe of how long an age lasted varied, but it always had a beginning and it always had an end.

For example an aion would speak of the reign of a king. The reign had a beginning and it had an end.

The adjective aionios is derived from aion therefore it can not exceed the meaning of the word it was derived from. Meaning aion can't mean time with a beginning and an end and aionios mean without beginning and end. That is linguistically impossible.

Aionios is not talking about everlasting life it is talking about age-lasting life or life for the age.

But I'm pretty sure that's not going to convince you either .

Then from your view, Jesus does not give us a life without end (eternal) He gives us a life that will end at some point in time?

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have aionios life.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

Hope)....(Hint: Do you think the Judgment Seat of Christ and the Great White Throne Judgment are the same?)

No, nor is the judgment of the nations the same as the JSOC.

And, why do you think that God calls unsaved people clean?

Scripture please.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

Then from your view, Jesus does not give us a life without end (eternal) He gives us a life that will end at some point in time?

Why all the dishonesty from those who oppose the preaching of the Kingdom that John and Jesus came preaching?

If your side is just, you should be able to be honest and show that.

But, you have to make absurd claims such as this to "prove" that you are right.

Please show where JJump, James Newman, Accountable, Lacy, or I have ever said that God does not give us salvation that lasts forever and ever and ever.

Jhn 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have aionios life.

God Bless! :thumbs:

How does someone lose their life (perish) if they have no life to lose?

Do you think that our spiritual salvation is secure, or can it bo forfeited?

 

[Hope of Glory]

No, nor is the judgment of the nations the same as the JSOC.

In Matthew 25, "nations" is simply ethnic groups. Generally, it can be used to distinguish Gentiles from Jews, but the expression "panta ta ethne" (forgive the transliteration) would be inclusive of Jews as well. It's inclusive of all ethnic groups, but there is no judgment where saved and unsaved are judged at the same time. (Note: If there is a split rapture, then saved and unsaved will be judged together at the Great White Throne Judgment, but even if true, that's an entirely different scenario: Goats and sheep are both clean animals, but goats are relatively worthless, hence the complaint of the elder son in Luke 15:29 of "not so much as a kid".)

But, in Matthew 25 it is a judgment of works, with all groups gathered together, and only clean animals referenced, with one group receiving an inheritance (a family matter) of the Kingdom (not being saved, since that was decided before the judgment, and not based on works), and the other group receiving aionian chastizement (kolasin, not moria, which would be vengeance).

You chastize your children.

The punishment is only age-lasting.

Both are clean animals.

You don't work to get, keep, or prove that you're saved.

Scripture please.

I just posted it about 3 posts ago. Did you not see it? Oh, well, some will shut their eyes. But, I'll post it again any way.

Numers 18:17: But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD.

 

[steaver]

(Hope)...Why all the dishonesty from those who oppose the preaching of the Kingdom that John and Jesus came preaching?

If your side is just, you should be able to be honest and show that.

But, you have to make absurd claims such as this to "prove" that you are right.

Please show where JJump, James Newman, Accountable, Lacy, or I have ever said that God does not give us salvation that lasts forever and ever and ever.

Calm down brother, we are all on the same side.

Here is what Jump posted about the word aionios....

(Jump)...Do any research in how the word was used by folks in that day and it is ALWAYS used in reference to an age of time. The timeframe of how long an age lasted varied, but it always had a beginning and it always had an end.

For example an aion would speak of the reign of a king. The reign had a beginning and it had an end.

The adjective aionios is derived from aion therefore it can not exceed the meaning of the word it was derived from. Meaning aion can't mean time with a beginning and an end and aionios mean without beginning and end. That is linguistically impossible.

Aionios is not talking about everlasting life it is talking about age-lasting life or life for the age.

But I'm pretty sure that's not going to convince you either .

I highlighted in bold the parts where he states "aionios" can never mean without end.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

(Hope)...I just posted it about 3 posts ago. Did you not see it? Oh, well, some will shut their eyes. But, I'll post it again any way.

Numers 18:17: But the firstling of a cow, or the firstling of a sheep, or the firstling of a goat, thou shalt not redeem; they are holy: thou shalt sprinkle their blood upon the altar, and shalt burn their fat for an offering made by fire, for a sweet savour unto the LORD.

Do you really believe that cows, sheep and goats are all holy?? Who would be the cows at the judgment of nations?

You missed the "firstling" part of the equasion and you are misusing one passage of scripture to try in support a view about a totally different matter.

The "firstlings" is the qualifier in the passage. Not all cows, all sheep and all goats.

The passage has NOTHING to do with Matt 25's judgment of the nations.

That is why you lost me on that one and I asked for some scripture.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

Calm down brother, we are all on the same side.

Here is what Jump posted about the word aionios....



I highlighted in bold the parts where he states "aionios" can never mean without end.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Which is not what you said in post #190:

Then from your view, Jesus does not give us a life without end (eternal) He gives us a life that will end at some point in time?

Aionios cannot mean without end.

God does save us forever and ever and ever.

Aionian life is not talking about that spiritual salvation that lasts forever and ever and ever.

But, what you claim he said, is not what you said, which is evidenced by the highlight of his statement.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Do you really believe that cows, sheep and goats are all holy?? Who would be the cows at the judgment of nations?

Do the Scriptures say? Not that I'm aware of. I have an opinion, but it's just that because they're not mentioned elsewhere in Scriptures.

You missed the "firstling" part of the equasion and you are misusing one passage of scripture to try in support a view about a totally different matter.

I didn't miss it. It's the firstlings that are sacrificed, not all cows, goats, and sheep.

The "firstlings" is the qualifier in the passage. Not all cows, all sheep and all goats.

The qualifier is for the sacrifice, but the cows, sheep, and goats are holy animals. Read the entire passage.

The passage has NOTHING to do with Matt 25's judgment of the nations.

Except that we are given those things as types, and the type that we are given is that cows, goats, and sheep are holy animals. That's why he's the "Lamb of God", and he's the firstborn of the lambs.

 

[steaver]

(Hope)...Aionios cannot mean without end.

God does save us forever and ever and ever.

Aionian life is not talking about that spiritual salvation that lasts forever and ever and ever.

But, what you claim he said, is not what you said, which is evidenced by the highlight of his statement.

You say "Aionios cannot mean without end".

John 3:15 says Jesus gives "Aionios" life.

What am I missing or what are you missing?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[J. Jump]

John 3:15 says Jesus gives "Aionios" life.

What am I missing

You are missing what aionios does mean and what it can not mean. Therefore you are missing the application of aionios life in Scripture.

 

[steaver]

(Hope)....Except that we are given those things as types, and the type that we are given is that cows, goats, and sheep are holy animals. That's why he's the "Lamb of God", and he's the firstborn of the lambs.

So you are a lamb? Correct?

God Bless! :thumbs: