Does God Know you?

[steaver]

As we can see, Hope and James has come to a road block in the maze they have created for themselves.

They teach that one cannot know if they are one of the sheep that the scriptures speak of over and over.

I take the word of God seriously and it's warnings about teaching. (James 3:1) My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.

My purpose here is to...... (Jude 1:3) earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. And this doctrine being spoken of by my fellow brothers is not that faith in it's totallity.

Therefore I strive to persuade men because...... (James 5:20) Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Brothers James and Hope have decided to avoid answering the questions that place their view in a pickle. I asked repeatedly if they were one of the lambs that Hope spoke of when he said, "That's why he's the "Lamb of God", and he's the firstborn of the lambs. "

Hope's statement is correct. Lambs give birth to lambs, Goats give birth to goats, Cows give birth to cows. Jesus' "type" is a Lamb. Not a goat, not a cow. Those "born of God", those "born of Christ" are indeed "typed" as sheep and nothing but.

Is there ONE passage in all of scripture that refers to the saved as goats? No, not one. There would be absolutely no support for teaching that Matt 25 is typing saved as sheep AND goats because scripture NEVER types those who follow Christ as goats. Always they are typed as "sheep".

Mat 10:16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

"Sheep and wolves"

Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Comparing scripture with scripture we find Matt 7's context is about false converts who are preying on the peacefulness of the saved. That is what wolves do to sheep. Jesus is not the firstborn of the wolves, goats, cats, rats, or any other "type" found in the scriptures. Jesus is the firstbon of the sheep "type" and nothing but.

Mat 26:31 Then saith Jesus unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock shall be scattered abroad.

Again, no mention of goats being scattered. Notice also that He said the sheep "of the flock". All of God's chosen people were considered to be God's flock, however the "sheep" of the flock are those who truly follow God and are saved by the blood of the Lamb. We will see this later in the OT examples as well.

Jhn 10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

Again, "shepherd of the sheep", no goats spoken of.

Jhn 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

Again, no goats spoken of. Here I must ask, are you a sheep James and Hope? Do you here the sheperd's voice and follow him? Do you know HIs voice? Answer yes to any of these questions and you ARE a sheep!

But you guys have a "view" to protect. And if you say that this day you are a sheep then your view of MAtt 7 and Matt 25 totally fails from your perspective. So you chose not to answer the question as to the only true answer that can be given and rather chose to ignore the facts and go on your way stuck in this heresy.

Jhn 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

The lost sheep that Jesus came for rejected previous men who claimed to be the Christ, but they "hear" Jesus word and they "follow" Jesus' word and Jesus calls them "sheep". Are you guys sheep? Don't know? Don't know if you hear Jesus' word? Don't know if you follow Jesus' word?

Jhn 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

No goats? No cows? The saved are typed as "sheep" and never anything else. It matters not how many animals God has declared as "clean" for whatever purposes He did. The Word always calls Jesus' followers "sheep".

Jhn 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Are you following Jesus this day James, Hope? Then scripture declares you are one of the sheep! Why do you deny what the scripture tells you?

Jhn 21:17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

No goats.

Rom 8:36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

Typed again as "sheep". Paul never spoke of fellow christians as goats. Not one passage in the NT letters calls christians goats, ever!

Hbr 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

Always sheep, yet you guys would have us to believe that christians are typed as goats in Matt 25, without even ONE passage of scripture in all of the bible to back that claim up? You point to the OT sacrifices of clean animals yet have absolutely no bridge to connect goats and cows as types of christians. NONE, not one, yet you go on your way convinced that you are right, even without one shred of evidence to support such a notion and on the contrary scripture after scripture which only types christians as "sheep". NEVER any other type!

1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.

Even when the followers of God are spoken about being lost or going astray they are still ALWAYS spoken of as SHEEP!

Goats are always spoken of as those who have been physically in the flock, mixed in among the sheep, but will be removed by God at judgment. Goats are not sheep and goats are never typed as christians. They are typed as "false" , as "wolves" , and only God can ultimately, perfectly seperate the good from the bad. The good are good because of Christ and the bad are bad because they have not Christ.

Zec 10:3 Mine anger was kindled against the shepherds, and I punished the goats: for the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle.

Eze 34:17 And as for you, O my flock, thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I judge between cattle and cattle, between the rams and the he goats.

Not all of God's "flock' was ever decared saved just because they were Jewish. Goats are never typed as following God and Jesus declared that those following God are sheep and.................Jhn 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Hope, James, can you answer this day if you are one of the sheep spoken of by Jesus? Can you answer this day if you are one of those sheep who follow Jesus?

Can you provide ONE scripture that types a christian as a goat?

Can you humble yourselves to admit that your view of Matt 7 and Matt 25 is very flawed, very wrong, and submit yourselves unto God for a fresh and new cleansing from the Word and learn from God what the true and sound biblical doctrines should be? Upholding the faith that was once delivered unto the saints, and covering a multitude of sins, sins of leading others astray by this heretical teaching known by Nee and Chitwood?

I have prayed for you both as well as Jump and Lacy. May God bless you all richly by His word!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

You are still just making too much of pictures. Each picture exists within its own context. If the bible uses the picture of a shepherd separating his flock between sheep and goats as an example of how Christ will separate obedient and disobedient Christians, what good is it to reply 'but you never called me a goat before'?

 

[steaver]

(James)....You are still just making too much of pictures. Each picture exists within its own context.

I have given scripture upon scripture upon scripture that types followers of Christ as sheep. Can you give one scripture that types followers of Christ as goats?

We will be waiting.

(James)...If the bible uses the picture of a shepherd separating his flock between sheep and goats as an example of how Christ will separate obedient and disobedient Christians, what good is it to reply 'but you never called me a goat before'?

That is the IF! Give us a scripture that types followers of Christ as goats. That is all you have to do to prove your point.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

My point is there is no judgment where believers get crowned and unbelievers get damned anywhere in scripture. If Jesus is a shepherd separating His flock, why would you expect to find a bunch of unbelievers in it?

 

[steaver]

(James)....My point is there is no judgment where believers get crowned and unbelievers get damned anywhere in scripture.

Matt 25, believers are not said to be crowned, but it says enter into the kingdom.

If Jesus is a shepherd separating His flock, why would you expect to find a bunch of unbelievers in it?

Actually what it says is "Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

Not divideth "his flock". I already gave OT examples of how all of Israel was said to be God's flock, yet not all of Israel was saved.

Your questions are all speculative and even your speculations are lacking support.

Can you give ONE scripture that types christians as goats? That is all you need to do.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

Matt 25, believers are not said to be crowned, but it says enter into the kingdom.

Correct, so when do believers enter into the kingdom? Is this the same day that unbelievers get judged and sent to the lake of fire?

Actually what it says is "Mat 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:"

Not divideth "his flock". I already gave OT examples of how all of Israel was said to be God's flock, yet not all of Israel was saved.

What part of Israel would you consider to be the sheep and what part the goats? Then where do the gentiles fit into that flock?

Your questions are all speculative and even your speculations are lacking support.

Can you give ONE scripture that types christians as goats? That is all you need to do.

God Bless! :thumbs:

Can you give me one scripture that places unbelievers at the judgment seat of Christ?

 

[steaver]

(James)....Can you give me one scripture that places unbelievers at the judgment seat of Christ?

No. Only believers are at the judgment seat of Christ AS FAR AS SCRIPTURE SAYS!

Can you give me ONE scripture that types followers of Christ as goats AS FAR AS SCRIPTURE SAYS?

(James)... so when do believers enter into the kingdom?

Spiritually, when they are born of God (John 3). Physically, those who have past and those who have been raptured will return with Jesus already in His kingdom (John 10, Jude 14). Those that are saved through the tribulation will enter in on that day Jesus seperates His sheep (the saved out of tribulation) from the goats (those who did not follow Jesus through the tribulation). (Matt 25) The focus is on Israel, the Jews, it does not say that there will be gentiles saved through the tribulation but that does not mean that there won't be any, here one can only speculate. The hearers, mostly Jews, in the day Jesus spoke these words would have understood what it meant to be a goat from the OT.

It appears that Jesus' judgment he speaks of in Matt 25 is focused on the Jews final rescue or salvation as a whole (Rom 11:26). Because Jesus speaks of "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring," (John 10) . The goats will be all of those who persecuted the Jews and sided with the antichrist.

(James)...Is this the same day that unbelievers get judged and sent to the lake of fire?

No.

(James)....What part of Israel would you consider to be the sheep and what part the goats? Then where do the gentiles fit into that flock?

Sheep follow Jesus (John 10). Goats do not follow Jesus (John 10). Sheep are given eternal life (John 10). Goats are not given eternal life (John 10).

Gentiles are from another fold, Jhn 10:16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Will some be saved out of the tribulation? Scripture does not say specifically. Grace is offered as of right now to the gentiles, will that end at the rapture? I do not know for sure.

Please don't forget to supply one scripture that types a follower of Christ as a goat.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

No. Only believers are at the judgment seat of Christ AS FAR AS SCRIPTURE SAYS!

Can you give me ONE scripture that types followers of Christ as goats AS FAR AS SCRIPTURE SAYS?

As far as scripture says, any goats that appear at the judgment seat of Christ will be believers. So I would say, Matthew 25.

Spiritually, when they are born of God (John 3). Physically, those who have past and those who have been raptured will return with Jesus already in His kingdom (John 10, Jude 14). Those that are saved through the tribulation will enter in on that day Jesus seperates His sheep (the saved out of tribulation) from the goats (those who did not follow Jesus through the tribulation). (Matt 25) The focus is on Israel, the Jews, it does not say that there will be gentiles saved through the tribulation but that does not mean that there won't be any, here one can only speculate. The hearers, mostly Jews, in the day Jesus spoke these words would have understood what it meant to be a goat from the OT.

It appears that Jesus' judgment he speaks of in Matt 25 is focused on the Jews final rescue or salvation as a whole (Rom 11:26). Because Jesus speaks of "other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring," (John 10) . The goats will be all of those who persecuted the Jews and sided with the antichrist.

I don't see any reason to believe this is speaking of Jews.
Matthew 25:32
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
I would contend that this is speaking of the nations of the saved, you think this is the nations of the Jews? Those that are likened to sheep are obviously saved and are being judged according to their works (thus the separation) and are being rewarded with entrance into Christ's kingdom.

No.

Then why would they be judged here 1000 years before the GWT?

Sheep follow Jesus (John 10). Goats do not follow Jesus (John 10). Sheep are given eternal life (John 10). Goats are not given eternal life (John 10).

Gentiles are from another fold, Jhn 10:16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. Will some be saved out of the tribulation? Scripture does not say specifically. Grace is offered as of right now to the gentiles, will that end at the rapture? I do not know for sure.

Please don't forget to supply one scripture that types a follower of Christ as a goat.

God Bless! :thumbs:

I was refering to OT sheep and goats, of which you correctly stated the flock of Israel contained both. OT Israel is also a picture of NT believers.

 

[steaver]

As far as scripture says, any goats that appear at the judgment seat of Christ will be believers. So I would say, Matthew 25.

I see NOTHING in Matt 25 that states "goats appear at the judgment seat of Christ". Scripture DOES NOT say this anywhere. You are making Matt 25 into some kind of model for the judgment seat of Christ ONLY to protect your view point. Why don't you do as you preach and just let the scripture say what it says?

MAtt 25 does not say christians are goats, you are making that assertion without the text saying it is so. I gave scripture upon scripture that actually does "type" christians as sheep. You still have not provided a scripture that types christians as goats.

I don't see any reason to believe this is speaking of Jews.
Matthew 25:32
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
I would contend that this is speaking of the nations of the saved, you think this is the nations of the Jews? Those that are likened to sheep are obviously saved and are being judged according to their works (thus the separation) and are being rewarded with entrance into Christ's kingdom.

I never said this was the "nations of the Jews". It is ALL nations whether containing Jews or not. You said, "sheep are obviously saved" , I say AMEN ! What is also "obvious" is the fact that goats throughout scripture are NOT saved. You cannot provide one scripture that types christians as goats.

Then why would they be judged here 1000 years before the GWT?

Anyone rejecting Christ is judged already, Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I was refering to OT sheep and goats, of which you correctly stated the flock of Israel contained both. OT Israel is also a picture of NT believers.

In the fact that believers live among goats just as they did in OT Israel.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

I see NOTHING in Matt 25 that states "goats appear at the judgment seat of Christ". Scripture DOES NOT say this anywhere. You are making Matt 25 into some kind of model for the judgment seat of Christ ONLY to protect your view point. Why don't you do as you preach and just let the scripture say what it says?

What does scripture say?
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Does all include those sheep in Matthew 25?

I never said this was the "nations of the Jews". It is ALL nations whether containing Jews or not. You said, "sheep are obviously saved" , I say AMEN ! What is also "obvious" is the fact that goats throughout scripture are NOT saved. You cannot provide one scripture that types christians as goats.

Being a sheep or a goat is a matter of obedience. Christ said His sheep hear his voice and follow Him. This is obedience in no uncertain terms. A believer who is not in the word and living in sin can hardly be said to be hearing His voice and following Him. Does that mean he is not saved?

Anyone rejecting Christ is judged already, Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But they will be judged literally at the great white throne, after the millennium, when death and hell give up the dead that are in them.

In the fact that believers live among goats just as they did in OT Israel.

Not just believers, obedient believers.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[steaver]

What does scripture say?
2 Corinthians 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Does all include those sheep in Matthew 25?

"What does scripture say?" Have you found any scripture that types christians as goats? No you have not, right? But you want everyone to believe that the goats in Matt 25 would be christians.

You ask, "Does all include those sheep in Matthew 25?". You want me to say yes so that you can say that this then means that Matt 25 is the judgment seat of Christ. The judgment seat of Christ would be a good study but from what I have heard on the subject much of the theology surrounding this judgment must partake in alot of speculation.

My answer as of now is "I don't know for sure". Give me your answer to this question and the scripture that clearly backs up your answer and I may learn something. I love learning new insights!

Being a sheep or a goat is a matter of obedience. Christ said His sheep hear his voice and follow Him. This is obedience in no uncertain terms. A believer who is not in the word and living in sin can hardly be said to be hearing His voice and following Him. Does that mean he is not saved?

Do you follow Jesus this day James? Do you hear His voice? Are you a sheep or a goat this day?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

So, can one change back and forth between being a sheep and a goat, or is the shepherd that separates the flock?

In this passage, they are being separated by the shepherd.

They're declared sheep or goats by their works.

Both goats and sheep are delcared to be clean animals.

If God didn't really, really, really, TRULY mean they were clean when he stated that, then why is Jesus called the "Lamb of God"? I mean, after all, they're not necessarily clean animals, right?

 

[steaver]

So, can one change back and forth between being a sheep and a goat, or is the shepherd that separates the flock?

In this passage, they are being separated by the shepherd.

They're declared sheep or goats by their works.

That is your misunderstanding. Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Both goats and sheep are delcared to be clean animals.

Yes, as declared for sacrifice and food consumption in the OT. You still have yet to provide a scripture that "types" christians as goats. Therefore you are mixing apples with oranges.

If God didn't really, really, really, TRULY mean they were clean when he stated that, then why is Jesus called the "Lamb of God"? I mean, after all, they're not necessarily clean animals, right?

God stated they were clean animals for food and sacrifice. Your own words should show you that if you want to "type" the TRUE christians you must define them as "lambs" for a Lamb would only give birth to lambs, not goats and cows. Jesus is the "Lamb of God", not the "Lamb and Goat of God".

So you never answered Hope, are you following Jesus this day? Jhn 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

"What does scripture say?" Have you found any scripture that types christians as goats? No you have not, right? But you want everyone to believe that the goats in Matt 25 would be christians.

You ask, "Does all include those sheep in Matthew 25?". You want me to say yes so that you can say that this then means that Matt 25 is the judgment seat of Christ. The judgment seat of Christ would be a good study but from what I have heard on the subject much of the theology surrounding this judgment must partake in alot of speculation.

I just want you to realize how often little matters of doctrine affect other little matters of doctrine. We rely on context, but we cannot divorce any context from the whole of scripture.

My answer as of now is "I don't know for sure". Give me your answer to this question and the scripture that clearly backs up your answer and I may learn something. I love learning new insights!

I would say of course those sheep are going to appear at the judgment seat of Christ. Is there any reason to believe otherwise?
1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
I don't think God is going to do anything otherwise than decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

All judgment is reserved until the second coming. There would be no reason for having separate judgments of different classes of believers, because they will all be gathered together.

Matthew 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Do you follow Jesus this day James? Do you hear His voice? Are you a sheep or a goat this day?

God Bless! :thumbs:

Amen, I'm a sheep today. The day has just started though.

 

[steaver]

I just want you to realize how often little matters of doctrine affect other little matters of doctrine. We rely on context, but we cannot divorce any context from the whole of scripture.

That's odd, I thought I was the one trying to make you realize this! :laugh:

I would say of course those sheep are going to appear at the judgment seat of Christ. Is there any reason to believe otherwise?
1 Corinthians 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.
I don't think God is going to do anything otherwise than decently and in order.

1 Corinthians 15:23-24
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

All judgment is reserved until the second coming. There would be no reason for having separate judgments of different classes of believers, because they will all be gathered together.

It is a theory worthy of consideration, but one can really only speculate. It seems the details have not been revealed to us in scripture.

What has been revealed is that christians are typed as "sheep" but never "goats". With this fact in mind there is absolutely no reason to believe that the goats in Matt 25 would be christians.

Hope introduced the fact (correctly so) that God typed Jesus as the "Lamb of God". This places all those born in Christ as lambs. Not goats or cows, but lambs. Scripture after scripture types christians as "sheep" ONLY!

Yet look at you two, you just refuse to abandon a doctrine that is so far fetched, and as my inquireys has proved, lacks any proper dividing of God's word in Matt 7 or Matt 25. Your view is entirely speculation and even though I have proven with scripture why your view does not work you still remain dug in, unwilling to either see the facts or accept the facts. I have not merely given opinions about these key points I have raised, I have given scripture that interprets the scriptures. You two have yet to give interpreting scriptures for your views of Matt 25.

Fact is you cannot because they do not exist. That would be ok if there was no other scriptures that refuted your view, then it would be my opinion verses your opinion, but I presented solid scriptural evidence to refute your view of Matt 25 and you have not presented any to support it.

Amen, I'm a sheep today. The day has just started though.

Well praise the Lord!! How many post did it take for that answer to come forth?

So NOW you can say that your are indeed following Jesus as of this day and therefore the scripture is fullfilled in you this day that says...."I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine." (John 10:14) ....."My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:" (John 10:27) .

And therefore yet again, Matt 7 can never be applied to you James, praise Jesus, because you are known by Him this day because you follow Him this day and those Jesus spoke of in Matt 7 were never known by Him....."And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matt 7:23) .

Key word in Matt 7....NEVER!

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

So, do you punish your children?

 

[steaver]

So, do you punish your children?

Sure have. Was it to just punish them like a prison sentence does having nothing more than punishment in mind (eye for an eye), or was it to correct their path that I may keep them from utter destruction? Your view advocates solely a punishment. It is not to correct anything.

We chasen our children for their own good, that they may learn how to behave correctly. It is to alter their path and destiny. Your hell fire punishment has no corrective value for sin will have ceased in these lives anyways at this point. And their path has no chance of altering, it is fixed already. You advocate pure punishment without cause for change. This a parent should never do and as God as our Father would never do because it adds nothing of value to the childs life.

But besides this little rabbit trail making some interesting conversation it adds nothing to refuting the facts about goats never being born from lambs. Or cows coming from rabbits.

You correctly brought into this discussion that Jesus was typed a Lamb, not a goat nor a cow. When "typing" appears to boltster your position you are all for it, but when it plays out to a demise you want to limit it to just what supports your view.

You are the one who typed goats as saved Hope. There is not one scripture to support this assertion. The OT states that sheep, goats and cows are declared holy by God for food and sacrifice. You are the one taking this fact and linking it to christians are now typed as sheep, goats and cows. But this is not the link the scripture makes, the scriptures ONLY link christians with sheep in "typing" and that is so obvious because Jesus is the passover lamb and Jesus is typed the "Lamb of God".

If you have a scripture that types christians as goats please bring it forth. If not, please abandon the unsupported view and grow a little.

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

We chastize our kids did you say?

Matthew 25:46: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

"Kolasin" is the word that is used here, along with "aionion".

It's temporal, and it's chastizement.

Goats are clean animals.

Children are chastized.

This is not a permanent punishment.

 

[steaver]

We chastize our kids did you say?

Matthew 25:46: "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

"Kolasin" is the word that is used here, along with "aionion".

It's temporal, and it's chastizement.

Whether it is temporary or not makes no difference for your position. The punishment you endorse is pure revenge without purpose, this God does not teach throughout His word. All of God's chastisement for His children is for purpose, for leading His children into righteousness. Never just because God wants to punish just for the sake of punishing.

What could be learned by the child spending 1000 years in torment? How not to sin anymore? No, because at this point in the childs life sin is no longer possible, there are no more choices of good verses evil to make, no different paths to take.

What would you suggest the purpose would be for God sending His child to hell for a spell? What could the child learn for the future?

Goats are clean animals.

Yes, we agree. The OT declares it is so. Now all you need is a connection in scripture that types christians as goats. Still waiting! I mean, surely there would be at least one, as there are MANY scriptures that type christians as sheep.

Children are chastized.

For purpose or for God's good pleasure?

Brother Hope, you have been very persistent with the "christians can be typed as any clean animal" rhetoric. Why don't you just accept what type they are actually given in scripture and just go with that? Lambs give birth to lambs, goats give birth to goats, cows to cows. Why continue to follow this belief that goats can mean christians when there is no such connection ever given in scripture? Why? Why protect such a glaring error in your view of this passage? Does it benefit yourself or anyone to embrace something that is so easily refuted by scripture itself?

Maybe you have a scripture that types Christians as goats but have been waiting for the right moment to present it. Maybe you are diligently searching for one and stalling for time. I don't know, but if you don't have one why don't you just say "there is none" and abandon the clean animals rhetoric?

God Bless! :thumbs:

 

[James_Newman]

1 Thessalonians 4:6 That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified.