Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
That fishy smell is a sign of a direct contradiction. :thumbsup:
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Does God love all people?
- Thread starter xdisciplex
- Start date
savedbymercy
New Member
Something's fishy here...:tonofbricks:
You are not paying attention to all what I posted. If you keep that up, there is no need to attempt to explain my position. God see's that by nature that His elect are sinners, however, He never laid their sins to their charge, as He did the workers of Iniquity. We are talking about two groups of people, both groups are by nature sinful, but only one group is charged with their sinfulness.
Then I showed you that God hates the One Group, not just their sins, but the very person , the worker of iniquity, not the works of iniquity, though that is true as well Ps 5:5
But those God Loved, He Loved them in spite of their sinfulness Rom 5:8, Yes of course He hated their sin, but not their persons He Loved them.
In ps 5:5 God hates the sin and the persons..
Now if you cannot understand what I am saying and the difference, then i have nothing else to say to you, you do not have to agree, but at least be honest enough to acknowledge the contrast !
Heavenly Pilgrim
New Member
Are love and hate at antipodes with each other, or are they just different expressions of the same attribute?
God is love.... is He not? Is hate, which some say God does, just another expression or side of love?
God is love.... is He not? Is hate, which some say God does, just another expression or side of love?
savedbymercy
New Member
This scripture and others like it prove that God does not Love all without exception Heb 12:6-8
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Rev 3:19
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Notice, Christ says as many as I love..meaning He does not Love all without exception or this statement would be meaningless..
Those God Loves He chastens. Now does He chastens the whole world without exception ? No He does not.
There is a distinction between those God loves and chasten and the rest of the world He shall condemn 1 Cor 11:32
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Now that portion of mankind that shall be condemned at the Judgment, were not Chastened by the Lord, and scripture says, as many as the Lord Loves they are chasten, and they will not be condemned with the world..
So this is more scripture testimony that God does not Love all men without exception..
6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
Rev 3:19
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
Notice, Christ says as many as I love..meaning He does not Love all without exception or this statement would be meaningless..
Those God Loves He chastens. Now does He chastens the whole world without exception ? No He does not.
There is a distinction between those God loves and chasten and the rest of the world He shall condemn 1 Cor 11:32
32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
Now that portion of mankind that shall be condemned at the Judgment, were not Chastened by the Lord, and scripture says, as many as the Lord Loves they are chasten, and they will not be condemned with the world..
So this is more scripture testimony that God does not Love all men without exception..
savedbymercy
New Member
To teach that God Loved all men without exception by faulty understanding of Jn 3:16, is to overlook that God's Love is grounded in Christ and not apart from Him..
Rom 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Thats right, we must not understand Jn 3:16 apart from Rom 8:39..
Now, with this in mind, If God Loved all men without exception in Christ Jesus, then all men without exception could claim to be recipients of this declaration from the mouth of Christ Jn 17:23-24
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
This is a declaration that all True Believers in Christ were Loved by the Father in the same manner as He loved the Son, and that being before the foundation of the world...
Now, if those who recklessly teach that God Loves all men without exception, then they have all been loved to the same manner of extent as Christ has been loved even from before the foundation, and yet many of them so loved by God, will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels..
And many of them so loved will hear Him whom they were Loved in before the foundation say these words Matt 7:23
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
or these words Matt 25:41
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
They will be called ye cursed even though they had supposedly been Loved by God in Him, before the world began..
All these conclusions are merited because men will not bow to scripture testimony that God only loved some of mankind and not all..
Rom 8:39
Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Thats right, we must not understand Jn 3:16 apart from Rom 8:39..
Now, with this in mind, If God Loved all men without exception in Christ Jesus, then all men without exception could claim to be recipients of this declaration from the mouth of Christ Jn 17:23-24
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
This is a declaration that all True Believers in Christ were Loved by the Father in the same manner as He loved the Son, and that being before the foundation of the world...
Now, if those who recklessly teach that God Loves all men without exception, then they have all been loved to the same manner of extent as Christ has been loved even from before the foundation, and yet many of them so loved by God, will be cast into the lake of fire with the devil and his angels..
And many of them so loved will hear Him whom they were Loved in before the foundation say these words Matt 7:23
23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
or these words Matt 25:41
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
They will be called ye cursed even though they had supposedly been Loved by God in Him, before the world began..
All these conclusions are merited because men will not bow to scripture testimony that God only loved some of mankind and not all..
savedbymercy
New Member
God does not Love all men without exception, because all whom He Loved are and will be more than conquerors, overcomer's through Christ..
Rom 8:37
Nay, in all these things we [Elect] are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
The word through is the prep dia which means:
through
a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
1) by reason of
2) on account of
3) because of for this reason
4) therefore
5) on this account
So, by reason of His Love for us [the elect] we are more than overcomer's..
So for God to have loved all without exception, then all without exception would be more than conquerors..Which certainly cannot be the case..
Rom 8:37
Nay, in all these things we [Elect] are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
The word through is the prep dia which means:
through
a) the ground or reason by which something is or is not done
1) by reason of
2) on account of
3) because of for this reason
4) therefore
5) on this account
So, by reason of His Love for us [the elect] we are more than overcomer's..
So for God to have loved all without exception, then all without exception would be more than conquerors..Which certainly cannot be the case..
savedbymercy
New Member
John 3:16
Those whom God So Loved in Jn 3:16, could not have been every individual in the world without exception, because if So, then that would mean that He Loved them with an everlasting Love Jer 31:3, it would mean that in Love He predestinated them unto the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ to Himself Eph 1:4-5
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
In Love here can very easily be joined with the first phrase in vs 5, Love here refers to that Love with which God loves His Chosen Ones [ Deut 7:6-7] God's Love is grounded in His Choice of A People as we can see from Deut 7:6-7, and so if God Loved everyone without exception in Jn 3:16, that is like saying God has Chosen everyone in the World without exception, which we know is not True. In this Love, its such a Love that God's Chosen Ones will experimentally become Holy and without blame before Him, and that cannot be True of those Jesus will yet say Matt 25:41
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Remember, the Chosen were Blessed Eph 1:3-4
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Those whom God So Loved in Jn 3:16, could not have been every individual in the world without exception, because if So, then that would mean that He Loved them with an everlasting Love Jer 31:3, it would mean that in Love He predestinated them unto the Adoption of Children by Jesus Christ to Himself Eph 1:4-5
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
In Love here can very easily be joined with the first phrase in vs 5, Love here refers to that Love with which God loves His Chosen Ones [ Deut 7:6-7] God's Love is grounded in His Choice of A People as we can see from Deut 7:6-7, and so if God Loved everyone without exception in Jn 3:16, that is like saying God has Chosen everyone in the World without exception, which we know is not True. In this Love, its such a Love that God's Chosen Ones will experimentally become Holy and without blame before Him, and that cannot be True of those Jesus will yet say Matt 25:41
41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Remember, the Chosen were Blessed Eph 1:3-4
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
savedbymercy
New Member
Did God Predestinate all without exception ? Eph 1:4-5
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Now some Translate the two words in love at the end of vs 4 and have them instead at the beginning of vs 5 as to read:
5 in love Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
The NIV reads :
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to son ship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Here the period is put at the end of vs four after the word sight !
Now this being the case, and since God's Love here is the same as that in Jn 3:16, then we must suppose that God has predestined all without exception for adoption to Sonship in accordance with His Pleasure and will. So all without exception shall attain to The Image of Christ Rom 8:29
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Now if all without exception are not predestinated unto this Image and attain unto it, God and His Love and His Predestination have failed.
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
Now some Translate the two words in love at the end of vs 4 and have them instead at the beginning of vs 5 as to read:
5 in love Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
The NIV reads :
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to son ship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
Here the period is put at the end of vs four after the word sight !
Now this being the case, and since God's Love here is the same as that in Jn 3:16, then we must suppose that God has predestined all without exception for adoption to Sonship in accordance with His Pleasure and will. So all without exception shall attain to The Image of Christ Rom 8:29
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Now if all without exception are not predestinated unto this Image and attain unto it, God and His Love and His Predestination have failed.
savedbymercy
New Member
Now if God Loved all without exception, then in Love, He predestnated all without exception. If He predestinated all without exception, then He must have foreknew all without exception according to Rom 8:29
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
convicted1
Guest
Looks like Ole' Don's a fightin' with them thar windmills again, Margaret. Yep, I reckon he is.
convicted1
Guest
"hated" which could also be interpreted as an idiom to imply the "favor" of Jacob and the loving "less" of Esau. FWIW
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
convicted1
Guest
1. Then why did he die for them?
2. You earlier said we were sinners, ungodly, and enemies of God when Christ died for us. (While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us)...are you saying God inspired these words while not considering us as sinners?
Word of caution to you Brother. You are talking to someone who believes that God's elect were never in the state of condemnation at any point in time in their lives. Eventhough they were sinners, they were never condemned by them. Tread lightly Brother 12strings, tread lightly.
convicted1
Guest
HP: That is not speaking of the individuals of Jacob and Esau, but rather God is speaking of two notions called by those names.
Read the whole chapter and the context is clear. Proof texting is no way to establish the truth of this passage as savedbymercy is doing, i.e., just picking out a text that he/she believes proves his/her point without regard to context.
:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs::thumbs: