Does man have a voluntary will?

People do what they do voluntarily.

I'm not sure what you mean by "manipulated", but no one has an autonomous will, free from outside influence. We are bound by circumstances, regulations, realities, to give a few examples. Yet we do what we do voluntarily, for the most part.

Voluntary just means that our choices are without external compulsion, that we are not forced to do what we do. Unless someone is dragged kicking and screaming, or has a loaded gun pointed to their head, or there is some other such scenario of force, their choices are voluntary. That doesn't mean they aren't influenced, just that they aren't forced--that the person could have done something else if they so desired.

Ahh...but it isn't destined to happen regardless of this voluntary will. One of the means by which a destined event will come about it the voluntary will of the person.

I wouldn't say every action is dictated by God's foreknowledge, as if God's foreknowledge of the action is the force behind it. The force behind the action is our own will, desires, motives, etc. I would say that God's foreknowledge of those actions makes them certain.

You've said the two ideas contradict, but you haven't shown how. Could you please put things in a logical form to show the contradiction? Show where the two ideas are logically incompatible.

 

Hello MB,

I was about to say, I did not have a problem with man having a voluntary will. But if the defintion is limited to what you posted above, I would say no. What you have said is in contrast to Gods will. There is only one determining factor in the end. It must be God or Man. God is in control of all things and determines all things. This does not remove mans will, it limits it. The non-believer is held as slave in his sin nature. God must give him repentance before he can know the truth of salvation.

2 Timothy 2

Yet...man is not a robot. Man will be held responsible for what he does. Free will is a invention of the human mind. The Bible never speaks of mans ability but thoughout its pages it speaks of mans inability. It is God that leads us in life.

I'm sure you know what is called "The Lords Prayer"..why pray that God would not lead us into temptation? Look at Matthew 4:1 "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil." Yet this still is not God making us sin. It still upholds James when He says God tempts no man. The temptation is always within us. God only leads us down paths of lifes. It is our own sin nature that tempts us.

Therefore it is clear to see that God places the choices before us each day, yet it is us that is held responsible to the choices.

Romans 14:12
So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

Man can only choose what is set before him. God leads.


In Christ...James

 

Then why so much evil in the world if all things are led of God? I really don't know how you split hairs like that.

 

There are parts of the definition you've given that I wouldn't think really describe the state of humankind's choices. Are all our choices made without being influenced by another? If someone else influences us, does that mean our choice isn't voluntary? If we are influenced by another to be convicted of our sin, for instance, does that mean our repentence isn't voluntary? If someone promises us something if we choose a certain way, and influences our choice by that promise, does that mean our choice isn't voluntary.

Definition #2 works well enough, though, and I like the definition from my own dictionary better:

No one, that I know of, says God's foreknowledge dictates what man will do, at least in the way that I think you are using the word dictate. God's foreknowledge alone does not compel anyone to act one way or another. God's foreknowledge makes it certain that the person will act in the way God knows (No one ever acts in a way contrary to what God knows they will), but it does not make it necessary that he do so. He could act differently if he so chose, but he won't act differently, because what God knows will happen does indeed happen.

No one disagrees with this. Unfortunately, for fallen mankind in his natural state, the invariable choice of voluntary will is voluntary rejection.

BTW, reading between the lines, I'm thinking that you are thinking that in order for a choice to be voluntary, it must be true that up until the moment the choice is actually made, there must be a real possibility that either of the choices will actually be chosen. I don't know of any definition of voluntary (or even of free choice) that says this is so.

And of course, if God really does know what we will do before we do it, this sort of voluntary (or free choice) is impossible.

 

Hello MB,

Indeed Luke did. Now is this talking about each and every Gentile, or is this saying that saving grace is now open to the Gentiles? Would not 2 Timothy 2 still apply for this is speaking of each person?? I think so.

Sure..

John 8 says the unregeneration cannot hear as in understand the gospel..

The unregeneration cannot receive the Holy Spirit as a act of the will. The Holy Spirit is given..as stated in John 14

Romans 8 says..the unregeneration cannot please God. Wait read it again. His mind is hostile toward God, and will not submit to Gods Law. It even say "indeed he cannot!!!"

1 Cor 2 says..the unregeneration cannot understand the Spirit of God.

I think the unregeneration man has an inability, and must be made alive 1st.

Indeed. I agree 100%

You see MB, I think God is in control of all men. I think God is in control of ALL things. If He were not, He would not be God. Case in point...Pharaoh.

Now God did not MAKE Pharaoh sin, but it is easy to see that God knew Pharaoh would sin, and also that God used Pharaoh in His sinning to bring glory to Him. Would you not agree? At this point, you may want to read the 4th chapter of Daniel.


In Christ...James

 

Hello MB,

Just a quick one tonight, but I want to reply later to a few other things from your last post. This maybe in the morning or later this week. But I could not let this one go...it was to easy.

You said...

Indeed. We call it regeneration.

Once man is enabled by God, he can understand. Salvation is by God.


In Christ...James

 

They may read the bible and understand the mechanics of it... but never understand in a spiritual way. The Holy Spirit does not reveal their sin, and the Holiness of God, does not reveal what Jesus did for us.

There is a difference between head knowledge and heart knowledge.

 

Indeed.

Does not the Devil believe there is a God? This is more then some men believe. Knowing about God does not mean you understand your very own need for God. In fact, at times, man will understand the gospel very well and will say "later". Their own sin nature will tell them they can be saved LATER, but right now they want to sin a little more. This is the point. To hear the gospel as worded in the Bible, means to understand their need for the gospel. The sin nature does not want to be saved from sin. From Hell? Yes!! But people are slaves to sin and do not want to give it up at that moment. They see no need to be saved.

 

I follow you but you also just gave a contradiction there to. Unless of course I read you wrong.
But what you are neglecting is that man can not come to God when he wants to it MUST be when God is dealing with him. I agree all the intellectual ascenting in the world will not save you (as you well state) they don't want to go to Hell, but leave my sin alone becuase they are in bondage to it. God alone has the power to reveal this and release a person from that bondage, this is not disputed either. However, God must be convicting that person to be able to see the actual NEED for salvation since it something spiritually discerned. But (as I hold) as person can resist this by not accepting this truth.

 

Absolutely Allan. We resist. I resisted most of my life. But when the Holy Spirit did HIs effectual work, in HIs time, (just as the wind blows so it is with the Holy Spirit) He broke my heart. All men resist the truth... until the Holy Spirit changes their nature.

 

I agree with everything up to here.

Here it could be worded better.
All men must accept or reject the truth the Holy Spirit reveals and that once accepted then will you have a changed nature that is the evidence of your salvation.

If your nature is changed before salvation then there is no need to repent or believe for you are already a new Creation IN Christ. This is the same as the scripture which discribes salvation as being IN Christ.
Repentence and belief and meaningless since you are already in Christ and justified, sanctified, and glorified. You would not need to repent because you are righteous before God. You do not have to believe becauses it is already a done deal and you should know it because you are have now gone from darkness into light, from the world into Christ. So you do not need to believe, just accept the fact. You are saved because God gave you a new nature, but unfortunately this is a complete contradiction to the scriptures.

 

Oh yeah..... there is a need to repent, because the bible says so. But the fact is that we will repent... we could not help but repent because of the new nature given us.

Allan, when they are born again they are a new creation. It is not that they "have" to believe, but that they *will* believe. I agree that we have to believe, but when we are born again, we will believe. Again, I think we are born again of God, not because of our will, but God's will..... then we exercise our new will, which believes.