Does prayer work??

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Rew_10: God killed thousands of people Himself! So either God is not perfect or the Bible is not fact or both.

HP: Why does the notion that ‘God killed thousands of people Himself’ lend itself to the notions that either ‘God is not perfect or the Bible is not a fact or both?’

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Bob, you will never be able to tell what is logical.

God MEANT for man to have sin, and it is amazingly obvious. This of course is concerning a literal look at Genesis, which I don't subscribe. But, God chose to make the focal point of the Garden of Eden a tree.

So, just imagine you are in a garden and every where you go you can still see this beautiful tree with ripe fruit hanging from it. But, of course, God TOLD you not to ever eat off of this tree. With the same childish mind that inhabited Adam and Eve, you too would have eaten off the tree. Just as any infant would do if you told them not to touch a candle and then set it in the playpen with them.

And Bob, please don't ever preach to me about what is logical and what is not. You see this account as historical fact!

Historical fact? Can you show me in Genesis 'The Book of Beginnings' where it says Adam and Eve had childish minds? I must have missed that.

 

[BobRyan]

God killed thousands at the flood of all the earth in Gen 7-8.

He kills billions in Rev 20 with the Lake of Fire.

He kills billions in Rev 19 at the 2nd coming.

 

[Rew_10]

rew,

Your profile says you are a Baptist and that you love God, but your post here says something entirely different.

Now, according to Baptist Board rules, I cannot out and out question your Salvatiion. But I don't have to, your words here declare whose servant you are.

A Christian will not make such statements as 'either God is not perfect or the Bible is not fact or both'. Your words betray you.

I will pray for you.

Im sorry, but all I can do is laugh kindly.

First you proclaim that I'm a servant of Satan?

Second, are you afraid of an imperfect God!? WHY!!!!!????

If God is imperfect that make our relationship even closer! Is that not obvious? Even if He is imperfect, He has knowledge and wisdom beyond our understanding. God is there to guide us through this life and what better to do it than something that understands the fallacies that plague us? Someone who has made mistakes and failed to achieve goals?

And it's not that I don't trust the core of the Bible, it's that I do not trust the HUMAN history of the Bible. The HUMAN authors and HUMAN "caretakes" for lack of a better word. The HUMANS that passed on the stories. Every thing in life forms another dimension and eventually becomes clearer, when looked at skeptically.

 

[Rew_10]

Historical fact? Can you show me in Genesis 'The Book of Beginnings' where it says Adam and Eve had childish minds? I must have missed that.

Tell me where it says they didn't! Both assertions are equally valid.

 

[tinytim]

Please tell me what stops the will of a perfect, omniscient, omnipotent being.

A perfect, omniscient, omnipotent being.

God can put limits on Himself, or he wouldn't be Omnipotent.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

I am not afraid of an imperfect god. I serve a perfect God.

 

[rbell]

are you afraid of an imperfect God!? WHY!!!!!????

If God is imperfect that make our relationship even closer! Is that not obvious? Even if He is imperfect, He has knowledge and wisdom beyond our understanding. God is there to guide us through this life and what better to do it than something that understands the fallacies that plague us? Someone who has made mistakes and failed to achieve goals?

That is heresy. It strikes at the very heart of the Christian faith.

If God isn't perfect, then He cannot offer redemption, because He becomes unable to redeem. Only a Holy and Perfect God could send Christ to earth.

If God isn't perfect, what separates God from us?

I can't begin to tell you how far off you are.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Again, your profile states that you love God.

Well I submit to you that if you truly loved God you would not accuse Him of being imperfect.

rbell got it right. If God was imperfect, He could not have sent His Son to be the sacrifice needed for our sins.

 

[BobRyan]

Tell me where it says they didn't! Both assertions are equally valid.

You keep arguing from the void of what scripture does NOT say to make your case.

Read it - study it - learn it -- then form informed opinions.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Rew_10]

That is heresy. It strikes at the very heart of the Christian faith.

If God isn't perfect, then He cannot offer redemption, because He becomes unable to redeem. Only a Holy and Perfect God could send Christ to earth.

If God isn't perfect, what separates God from us?

I can't begin to tell you how far off you are.

First don't confuse that I believe that God isn't perfect. I just like to think in diverse realms.

But why can only a Holy and Perfect God send Christ to earth? We claim that God in complex beyond our understanding, yet claims such as these can be made?

And God made us in His image. We are imperfect, so why is it not POSSIBLE that he also is imperfect?

 

[DHK]

First don't confuse that I believe that God isn't perfect. I just like to think in diverse realms.

But why can only a Holy and Perfect God send Christ to earth? We claim that God in complex beyond our understanding, yet claims such as these can be made?

And God made us in His image. We are imperfect, so why is it not POSSIBLE that he also is imperfect?

God is holy and perfect. Those are his attributes among many others. He is a perfect and complete being that has need of nothing. IF he needed anything he wouldn't be God.
Our problem in thinking of God is that we have a finite mind and God is infinite.
The Bible teaches that there is only one God and that He is perfect, loving and good. He so loved us that he sent Christ to the earth to save us from the penalty of our sins. Only God can do this; no one else has the power to do this, and thus no one else has the power to save us from the penalty of our sin. That is why Christianity is so exceptional. It alone has the answer to the forgiveness of our sins. Christ is perfect, sinless, and eternal. The eternal sinless God made himself flesh and came down and died for the penalty of man's sin. Other religions have no way for their sins to be forgiven. Christ alone took, and was able to take the sins of the world upon himself. All who believe and receive the payment for the penalty of our sins (that is the sacrifice that he paid) will have their sins forgiven.
After that one can go to him in prayer and actually see God answer prayer in the believer's life.

 

[Rew_10]

But, you can also look at it like this.

Who defines perfection??

"Perfect" is not a definition but rather a perspective. What is perfect to you may not be perfect to me. After probing my thoughts this evening, I think I almost find more comfort in a God that is imperfect, likewise to me a perfect God would be imperfect.

 

[Rufus_1611]

But, you can also look at it like this.

Who defines perfection??

"Perfect" is not a definition but rather a perspective. What is perfect to you may not be perfect to me. After probing my thoughts this evening, I think I almost find more comfort in a God that is imperfect, likewise to me a perfect God would be imperfect.

There should be no comfort in an imperfect god for that is not the God of the Holy Bible.

God is perfect...

"He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he."- Deut 32:4​

"As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all them that trust in him." - 2 Samuel 22:31​

"As for God, his way is perfect: the word of the LORD is tried: he is a buckler to all those that trust in him." - Psalm 18:30​

 

[DHK]

But, you can also look at it like this.

Who defines perfection??

"Perfect" is not a definition but rather a perspective. What is perfect to you may not be perfect to me. After probing my thoughts this evening, I think I almost find more comfort in a God that is imperfect, likewise to me a perfect God would be imperfect.

The public school system is founded on a religion of humanism, which teaches relativity, and that the only absolute is "there are no absolutes," which is absolute nonsense. Humanism is a false religion. The Bible is built on absolutes. Perfection is an absolute especially when speaking of God.
Most often the word "perfection" when used in the Bible can be translated "complete." God is complete. He is a complete person. He is not lacking in any detail. There is no deformity, no attribute, nothing that is lacking in God. He is complete in everything. He lacks nothing; He needs nothing. He is completely sufficient. He doesn't need you, me, the human race, the universe. He created all things for His pleasure. He existed before all things. He doesn't need us. He is the potter; we are the clay. He, as our Creator, has every right to do as he will with us, including throwing us into Hell. We are entirely dependent upon his mercy.

I am not comfortablel thinking of an imcomplete God, but rather one who is all sufficient, all powerful, all knowing, all present, etc. He is perfect (complete). He has need of nothing.
Therefore the Bible says:
Casting all your care upon him, for he cares for you. (1Pet.5:7)
He is the only one that truly can.

 

[Tom Butler]

Praying to God is not for his benefit. It is for ours.

Prayer does not change God. It is an acknowledgement of God's Omnipotence and Omniscience. We know he already knows what we want and need, and our prayer is an acknowledgement that he has the power to grant it if he so wills.

It is an acknowledgement that we are totally dependent on him, his grace and his mercy.

Jesus knew that he was going to give Bartamaeus his sight. He made him ask for it first.

Sometimes are prayers are to thank God, not just to ask him for stuff.

 

[Darron Steele]

Perfect. Omnicisent. Omnipotent. All Powerful.

Before reading any further tell me if all those words describe God.

If you're answer is "yes", then prayer CAN NOT work.

Now please don't get this definition of prayer mixed up with "talking to God". When I pray, I pray in a conversational style and I don't necessarily ask God to do or look over anything.

So, on to the point. Praying for your dog to come home, your mother to be healed of her cancer, or asking for someone to be watched over on a trip can not work if God has the characteristics listed at the top of the post.

If God is omniscient then he knows all of our thoughts and what will become of us. So, do some people think that by praying you are going to petition God to come perform a favor for you?

And if God can be petitioned, where does He draw the line? You prayed that your grandmother would be healed of cancer and she was, so you attribute it to God. But the woman next door has a child die of lukemia at the age of twelve.

And of course if God is omnipotent, then he can heal people, but if he is perfect does he have the ability to change his mind?

I've also had some people say that they pray for God's will to be done. But is there really any need to pray for that? God's Will will be done, no matter what happens.

So, just wanted to get some responses on this idea. Thanks!

I have thought about the very same theme you are posting.

First of all, God is all-powerful = omnipotent, and He is all-knowing = "omniscient," but James 5:16b says "The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective" (TNIV). Therefore, I have to disagree with one of your statements.

1 Thessalonians 5:17 says "Pray continually" (TNIV). Philippians 4:6 "In nothing be anxious; but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God" (ASV). I see prayer as a directive in these and other passages.

There are a number of things about God that are incomprehensible to me. Why would He tell us to ask Him for things if He is good and all-powerful and already knows what is best and what the future holds, for instance. I do not know.

One thing I do know: I do not have to understand why God commands something for me to obey it. I could not even imagine this universe, let alone create it in such a way that it would work so intricately. Further, He is Master of this whole universe and beyond, and I am just a mortal. What He commands, I believe I should do. He tells me to pray to Him, so I do it.

I do not believe my obedience to God is to be contingent upon my understanding and agreeing with the `why's. I do not believe in obedience to God on my terms.

 

[BobRyan]

But, you can also look at it like this.

Who defines perfection??

"Perfect" is not a definition but rather a perspective. What is perfect to you may not be perfect to me. After probing my thoughts this evening, I think I almost find more comfort in a God that is imperfect, likewise to me a perfect God would be imperfect.

Although I keep holding Rew_10 accountable for not knowing his Bible and not thinking through the issues raised based on the actual information in God's Word -- I have to give him credit for a few things.

#1. Given the atheist darwinist view of origins and creation and life and the origin even of our species -- the logical conclusion is that the Bible is corrupt rather than reliable and accurate. You could not possibly know what to believe just by reading the Bible. You would have to consult texts on atheist darwinism first.

#2. The "God of the Bible" then no matter how well intended would still be responsible in some way for His own Word - His own corrupt text. And if He can not manage to get His own Word right - accurate, reliable, dependable then HE himself is not "perfectly" reliable, dependable, consistent. He becomes at least as corrupt as His word since either He CAN NOT make it reliable or He corruptly chooses not to uphold the standard of His own Word.

#3. In 2Cor 4:4 we are told that the "god of this world has blinded their eyes" - and in Eph 2:1-3 we find that the lost operate according to the dictates of the "prince of the power of the air". This means that for many (in fact most according to Matt 7) Satan has a dominate role in how they view life, and God and the Bible. It is not surprising that he would promote a view of himself and his practices as thought that is the way that God actually acts. In 2Thess 2 we find that he "presents himself sitting in the seat of God as though he IS God".

The argument that a corrupt god with a corrupt Word of God -- is a good match for humanity that is itself sinful, corrupt and depraved -- is one that I think fits perfectly with the "god of this World" perspectives given by God's Word speaking about the way that Satan controls the minds of humanity.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The topic here deals with the war between good and evil. God created the world in perfect sinless holy harmless peaceful perfection.

Satan argues for bloodshed, carnage, disease, starvation and extermination as the "means" for evolving life.

God created the world without allow Satan any foothold at all except through the tree of knowledge of good and evil. God did not allow him to simply come in and setup his own system of death and destruction. Adam and Eve had to "YIELD" that right and CHOOSE Satan over God.

In Job 1 Satan comes to God and complains that God has set a hedge about Job -- that God is in effect bribing Job to remain faithful. Notice the war between good and evil in Job 1 and 2 and the fact that they are "observing boundaries" in this war that are set by God.

The questions asked on this thread are as if THERE WAS no war. As if God simply was arbitrary and fickle for his own reasons and the fact that we are in a FALLEN state should not be allowed to enter into the debate. But isn't that exactly the view that Satan has to promote upon all of us? Isn't that the way he tries to cast God all the time?


In Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Darron Steele: I do not know……….One thing I do know: I do not have to understand why God commands something for me to obey it……….

HP: Well stated Darron. True fortitude of knowledge consists in not allowing the things we do not or cannot understand to confuse the things we with certainty clearly understand. Regardless of our limited knowledge of God, we can understand the commandments granted to us.