Does Purgatory negate The Sufficiency of the Cross?

[Yeshua1]

For IF RCC holds to that doctrine still...

Doesn't that deny 'jesus paid it all?"

 

[Walter]

For IF RCC holds to that doctrine still...

Doesn't that deny 'jesus paid it all?"

Purgatory has nothing to do with the sufficiency of the cross. Purgatory is a process (Theosis) of sanctification.The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). And, of course, It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). This contradicts what most anti-Catholic zealots claim that Catholics believe about Purgatory. John Macarthur mispoke on a video I was watching when he said 'it (Purgatory) doesn't exists, there are no "second chances".

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven. If the Catholic teaching was that those sins needed something done by a person by way of Purgatory to gain forgiveness for sin, that would indeed deny the sufficiency of the cross. But that is not what the Church teaches. The sins have already been forgiven by way of the Atonement. Purgatory is about purification, not forgiveness. The soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).

 

[Yeshua1]

Purgatory has nothing to do with the sufficiency of the cross. Purgatory is a process (Theosis) of sanctification.The Catechism of the Catholic Church defines purgatory as a "purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven," which is experienced by those "who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified" (CCC 1030). And, of course, It notes that "this final purification of the elect . . . is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1031). This contradicts what most anti-Catholic zealots claim that Catholics believe about Purgatory. John Macarthur mispoke on a video I was watching when he said 'it (Purgatory) doesn't exists, there are no "second chances".

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven. If the Catholic teaching was that those sins needed something done by a person by way of Purgatory to gain forgiveness for sin, that would indeed deny the sufficiency of the cross. But that is not what the Church teaches. The sins have already been forgiven by way of the Atonement. Purgatory is about purification, not forgiveness. The soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).

its because the RCC keeps denying the plain biblical truth when in Chrsit, we are to God JUST as His own Sin, perfect law keepers!

justification makes us pure and holy/acceptable to God, so no need to have further "purification", as the bible also states when we are glorifed by god to being as jesus is with a glorified body, we will be "perfect and complete", not thru Purgatory!

 

[DHK]

The purification is necessary because, as Scripture teaches, nothing unclean will enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27) and, while we may die with our mortal sins forgiven, there can still be many impurities in us, specifically venial sins and the temporal punishment due to sins already forgiven.

1. There is no such thing as different kind of sins: mortal, venial, etc.
Sin is sin. It is just as bad, in God's sight to tell a little white lie as it is to commit murder. The consequence of those sins may be different, but both are sins. Any sin will separate you from God. Any sin will cause you to be unholy and defiled. The Bible defines sin as a transgression of the law in 1John 3:4. In James 2:10 it says that if you have broken one law you are just as guilty as if you have broken them all.

2. When a person comes to Christ he is justified by putting his faith in Christ. Romans 5:1 says:
"Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God."
That speaks of our standing before God.
My standing before God is "just as if I have never sinned" (justification).
My sins (past, present, and future) have all been put under the blood.
There remains no more sacrifice for sins. Jesus paid it all. He paid the full price in one sacrifice and that means for the future sins as well. In my standing before God I am perfectly holy, perfectly pure. I do not need any further purification. I am perfectly holy, even as God is holy. Christ made me that way. In fact when God looks down upon me, he no longer sees me, he sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

If the Catholic teaching was that those sins needed something done by a person by way of Purgatory to gain forgiveness for sin, that would indeed deny the sufficiency of the cross. But that is not what the Church teaches. The sins have already been forgiven by way of the Atonement.

That nullifies further purgation.

Purgatory is about purification, not forgiveness. The soul is purified of the remaining consequences of sin: "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper" (Luke 12:59).

There remains no more consequence for sins. He forgave my sins once and for all.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus--none whatsoever. All my sins are under the blood--all of them. I don't have to worry about future sins or the consequences of them. Purgatory is a man-made doctrine with no basis in the Bible. It cannot be defended by the Bible and was never taught by the Apostles.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Since there is no such thing as purgatory, any question about it is moot. It's just one of the made-up beliefs of the Catholic religion that has absolutely NO basis in scripture.

 

[Fred's Wife]

Since there is no such thing as purgatory, any question about it is moot. It's just one of the made-up beliefs of the Catholic religion that has absolutely NO basis in scripture.

Amen! :thumbs:

 

[Walter]

Since there is no such thing as purgatory, any question about it is moot. It's just one of the made-up beliefs of the Catholic religion that has absolutely NO basis in scripture.

As usual, just a sweeping condemnation of 'anything Catholic' by you that adds nothing to the discussion. The word 'Purgatory' is not in scripture, but neither are other things you believe in. No one 'made-up' Purgatory. Even the Jews at the writing of the OT had a concept of it. In Judaism, hell has two meanings: the abode of the dead - called Sheol - and the place of purification - called Gehenna. Judaism dosen't exactly have a teaching on damnation, but it dose have a teaching like damnation, where if you committed a very grave sin (like the unforgiveable sin) your soul would cease to exist after spending time in Gehenna. A soul spends up to 12 months in Gehenna before going to Heaven.

Seriously, Jon-Marc, if you have anything else to contribute other than the hit & run posts you make on threads dealing with the Catholic faith, please do so. But you always seem to just deny that a doctrine is true and take off. 'Fred's Wife' does the same thing, she misrepresents the Catholic faith, does the 'doctrinal dance' and takes off.

 

[Walter]

[/B]1. There is no such thing as different kind of sins: mortal, venial, etc.
Sin is sin. It is just as bad, in God's sight to tell a little white lie as it is to commit murder. The consequence of those sins may be different, but both are sins. Any sin will separate you from God. Any sin will cause you to be unholy and defiled. The Bible defines sin as a transgression of the law in 1John 3:4. In James 2:10 it says that if you have broken one law you are just as guilty as if you have broken them all.

2. When a person comes to Christ he is justified by putting his faith in Christ. Romans 5:1 says:
"Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God."
That speaks of our standing before God.
My standing before God is "just as if I have never sinned" (justification).
My sins (past, present, and future) have all been put under the blood.
There remains no more sacrifice for sins. Jesus paid it all. He paid the full price in one sacrifice and that means for the future sins as well. In my standing before God I am perfectly holy, perfectly pure. I do not need any further purification. I am perfectly holy, even as God is holy. Christ made me that way. In fact when God looks down upon me, he no longer sees me, he sees me clothed in the righteousness of Jesus Christ.

That nullifies further purgation.

There remains no more consequence for sins. He forgave my sins once and for all.
There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus--none whatsoever. All my sins are under the blood--all of them. I don't have to worry about future sins or the consequences of them. Purgatory is a man-made doctrine with no basis in the Bible. It cannot be defended by the Bible and was never taught by the Apostles.

John 5:17 explicitly differentiates a mortal sin from a less serious one (RSV):

All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
{KJV: "not unto death"}

Saying that a white lie or a momentary pang of jealousy or lust (especially if unrepented of) is the moral equivalent in God's eyes of a torture, rape, and murder? That's the Baptist position --but, it doesn't hold up to John 5:17
John says "he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death", but you say "all sin leads to spiritual death," and that all sins are equal in God's eyes. Again, the Apostle John says, "there is a sin not unto death" in 5:17. Thus he is clearly making the distinctions we make with regard to degrees of sin.

 

[Fred's Wife]

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

What does John 5:17 have to do with sin?

 

[Alcott]

The poster is obviously referring to the First Epistle of John 5:17.

 

[Walter]

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

What does John 5:17 have to do with sin?

Your absolutely right! That should be I John 5:17: The Bible plainly teaches that there is such a thing as a mortal sin (1 John 5:16-17), and often refers to lesser and greater sins.

 

[DHK]

John 5:17 explicitly differentiates a mortal sin from a less serious one (RSV):

No it does not. Take your argument up with God, not me.
1John 3:4; James 2:10; Gal.3:10
It is the Scripture that you must argue against not me. Sin is a transgression against God. One transgression is just as serious as another, for even the slightest transgression is serious enough to send a person to hell.

All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal.
{KJV: "not unto death"}

You have quoted from a lousy translation. There is no such thing as a mortal sin. Those are man-made differentiations.

Saying that a white lie or a momentary pang of jealousy or lust (especially if unrepented of) is the moral equivalent in God's eyes of a torture, rape, and murder? That's the Baptist position --but, it doesn't hold up to John 5:17

Better get the right verse. It holds up to Scripture. All sin is transgression against God's law. The consequence to some sins are greater than others. We are not speaking of earthly consequences. We are speaking of sin being a transgression of the law. Sin makes one a transgressor. Sin makes one a sinner. Sinners go to hell, no matter what sin they commit. There is no such thing in God's sight as a "great sinner," and a "good sinner." All are evil in his sight. That is why they need a redeemer. They have all transgressed God's law, whether by little or by much.

John says "he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death", but you say "all sin leads to spiritual death," and that all sins are equal in God's eyes.

God equally condemns all sin.

Again, the Apostle John says, "there is a sin not unto death" in 5:17. Thus he is clearly making the distinctions we make with regard to degrees of sin.

There are no degrees of sin.
First the passage you are thinking of is found in 1John, not John.
Second, it has to do with God's tolerance with a believer's sin, or even lifestyle of sin.
Third, it does not have to do with a specific sin.

The passage:
1 John 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

If anyone see a brother, that is one who is saved.
There is a sin unto death. That is stated in verse 16, not verse 17.
All unrighteousness is sin. Note that carefully. Lying is sin; stealing is sin; murder is sin. ALL unrighteousness is sin. There are no degrees of sin with God. All unrighteousness is sin. AND There is a sin not unto death.

This has to do with God's toleration for sin. One must study all of what John said before in this epistle before realizing what he is saying here. One cannot just come to these few last verses of the epistle and think that they can bolster their false doctrine because here is something that looks like something they believe when they haven't studied the rest of Scripture.

There is an example in 1Cor.11:30 The Corinthians met regularly to have a meal together before they celebrated the Lord's Supper. But there was division in the church. The rich met only with the rich and didn't share any of their food with the poor. Thus the poor met with the poor and often went home hungry while the rich actually got drunk and were gluttonous. It was sinful, divisive, and wrong. And with this sinfulness they then celebrated the Lord's Table. Because of such a sinful and careless attitude toward spiritual things Paul speaks to them boldly and says:

1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. (are dead)
--God doesn't tolerate sin. Not only were some weak and sick, but God had killed some of them for their sin. This is what John was referring to as a sin unto death. They were to accept this as God's judgment, not to pray for it.

God judged Annanias and Sapphira in the first few verses of Acts 5 for the sin of hypocrisy. He killed them both. There is a sin unto death.

If a person will continue in a sinful lifestyle it could be that instead of continuing in God's chastening, God will take that believer home to heaven, that his poor testimony will not mar the name of Christ any longer. That is the sin unto death. It is not a specific sin; it could be any sin.

 

[Walter]

John 19:11: "'. . . he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.'"

The Bible also refers to-mortal- sins which - if not repented of - will exclude one from heaven (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 1:8; Eph. 5:5; Heb. 12:16; Rev. 22:15).

 

[DHK]

John 19:11: "'. . . he who delivered me to you has the greater sin.'"

Judas was more responsible in the betrayal of Christ than Pilate was.
That is all that that verse means. It is not speaking of degrees of sins. Why take Scripture out of context?

The Bible also refers to-mortal- sins which - if not repented of - will exclude one from heaven (1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 1:8; Eph. 5:5; Heb. 12:16; Rev. 22:15).

Demonstrate how even one of those verses will do as you say.
You are wrong.
The only thing that will keep one out of heaven is if they reject Christ as their Savior. That is the only thing that keeps a person out of heaven. Prove me wrong.

 

[Yeshua1]

Your absolutely right! That should be I John 5:17: The Bible plainly teaches that there is such a thing as a mortal sin (1 John 5:16-17), and often refers to lesser and greater sins.

Actually, it reads there is Sin that leads to death... many see john here stating that even a Christian can face capital punishment for say Murder....


That there are sins with more consequences/effects is true, as murder means another person dies, but Bible quite clear that ANY transgreesion of the law of God is like ALL of it was broken, see james!

After saved by grace of God, NO sins will breal the relationship with the Father, but will definitly affect the fellowship!

For if there is such a thing as mortal sin, why did jesus say ONLY one sin not forgivable?

 

[WestminsterMan]

Judas was more responsible in the betrayal of Christ than Pilate was.
That is all that that verse means. It is not speaking of degrees of sins. Why take Scripture out of context?

Demonstrate how even one of those verses will do as you say.
You are wrong.
The only thing that will keep one out of heaven is if they reject Christ as their Savior. That is the only thing that keeps a person out of heaven. Prove me wrong.

Hmmmm.....

I stub my toe and cry out with a choice expletive.

You (used figuratively) go out, find a victim - kidnap, rape, and murder the victim.

According to your logic God sees the degree of these two sins as equal?

Complete hogwash!

WM

 

[Yeshua1]

Hmmmm.....

I stub my toe and cry out with a choice expletive.

You (used figuratively) go out, find a victim - kidnap, rape, and murder the victim.

According to your logic God sees the degree of these two sins as equal?

Complete hogwash!

WM

God sees that sin has been commited. and the soull that sins, period. must die, or else blood has to be shed in that sinners place to atone for sin!

So in regards to salvation, ALL sin is same sin, as just done once qualifies us to 'death"...

In regards to actually how bad it is in effect from our perspective, of course rape/murder worse than lying!

 

[DHK]

Hmmmm.....

I stub my toe and cry out with a choice expletive.

You (used figuratively) go out, find a victim - kidnap, rape, and murder the victim.

According to your logic God sees the degree of these two sins as equal?

Complete hogwash!

WM

In both cases, under OT law a sin offering would be required.
In that sense how is it any different?

In the more serious case capital punishment will be added on. A more serious sin has a more serious consequence in our society. But in God's sight all sin is a transgression of the law.