Does the Soul or Spirit Carry Consciousness?

[BobRyan]

Bob said Quote:
So there are TWO states with fellowship and worship to God - the FIRST stated (in this body - this decaying tent) and the THIRD state (in the heavenly immortal body of 1Cor 15 and 2Cor 5.)

TCG
2. Scripture?

1. you already agreed to that part.
2. You also already agreed that the middle part - is the state of death where we have NO body at all (much less a sleeping one).
3. you also admitted that your own doctrinal view is stumped by Paul's claim that HE and ALL NT saints Groan longing to AVOID the 2nd state.

The only "question" that remains in your view - is "how do we know the UNDESIRABLE state is a state with no worship, no fellowship"..

Matt 22 "God is NOT the God of the dead"
Eccl 12 the "DEAD know nothing"

 

[BobRyan]

As already posted on #68

All that "ceases" at death gives us a "clue" as to why God calls this dormant state "sleep"

Hint: This is why in Matt 22 Christ insists that "God is NOT the god of the Dead". Because in the state of death the PERSON -- is asleep "Lazarus Sleeps" not "Lazarus' decaying body sleeps instead of decaying"

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

Praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 [b]but as for us, we will bless[/b] the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hopefor your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

No memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

No thought activity

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Isaiah 38
18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said Quote:
Your problem is that you are stuck saying it is FARRR BETTER than the first and yet you have Paul saying that those in the FIRST state view that as SOOOO undesirable that they IN THIS life GROAN in anxious desire to AVOID it!

TCG
4. I can only affirm what is plainly taught in Scripture. When I cannot do that, I respect silence or interpret a difficult text in light of a clearer text. I try not to manufacture my own explanations.

Actually you are doing the opposite. You take a text that says nothing about the middle state of 2Cor 5 and bend it AS IF it is claiming to PREFER exactly what Paul say we reject and groan to avoid.

Bob said

Quote:
You then end up saying that those in THIS life - consider being WITH Christ of so little value and consider having ETERNAL bodies of SO GREAT value - that they look to AVOID simply "being with Christ in perfect union and fellowship if it is without that eternal body" and you suppose this is what they are GROANING to avoid

As already stated - this certainly can not be a satisfying solution for you.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

1. you already agreed to that part.
2. You also already agreed that the middle part - is the state of death where we have NO body at all (much less a sleeping one).
3. you also admitted that your own doctrinal view is stumped by Paul's claim that HE and ALL NT saints Groan longing to AVOID the 2nd state.

The only "question" that remains in your view - is "how do we know the UNDESIRABLE state is a state with no worship, no fellowship"..

Matt 22 "God is NOT the God of the dead"
Eccl 12 the "DEAD know nothing"

Quoting 2 Cor 5:1-5, One question I ask of you: What is the unclothed state?

"1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." (emphasis mine).

 

[BobRyan]

Quoting 2 Cor 5:1-5, One question I ask of you: What is the unclothed state?

"1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life." (emphasis mine).

You and I already agreed it is the middle state of death between being alive in this life in this decaying tent.. .and being resurrected with our eternal body.

On post 238 we have my most recent answer to what that state is and why it is to be avoided -

Originally Posted by TCGreek
So what is this undesired state? Is it soul sleep?

In 2Cor 5 the undesired the state is the one with "no body" at all.

The term Paul uses is "naked" simply to convey that we have no body and that it is as undesired as being naked.

The reason it is not desired was already explained by Paul in 1Cor 15 (to that same church) where he points out without the resurrection not ONLY do we not get our heavenly body - we also have "no hope" even the saints have "perished".

So there are TWO states with fellowship and worship to God - the FIRST stated (in this body - this decaying tent) and the THIRD state (in the heavenly immortal body of 1Cor 15 and 2Cor 5.)

The middle state is WORSE than them all and much to be avoided since IT is the state of NO fellowship - no worship. It is easy to see that such a dormant - no-body state is WORSE than any of the three.

Your problem is that you are stuck saying it is FARRR BETTER than the first and yet you have Paul saying that those in the FIRST state view that as SOOOO undesirable that they IN THIS life GROAN in anxious desire to AVOID it!

Then on this current page I gave a raft of texts speaking of the functions that cease at death for the one who is "naked" and without any body at all.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

2. You also already agreed that the middle part - is the state of death where we have NO body at all (much less a sleeping one).

And so?
The body decays. The spirit is immortal and lives on forever in the presence of God.

3. you also admitted that your own doctrinal view is stumped by Paul's claim that HE and ALL NT saints Groan longing to AVOID the 2nd state.

I doubt if he said this. In fact the Scripture says that we groan in this body because we are on this earth. It is a natural process of degeneration. Some have arthritis, bursitis, and the more serious multiple sclerosis, Alzheimer's, Parkinson's, etc. We do indeed groan in this body. We wait for the redemption of our bodies (Rom.8:23), but that is speaking of the body, not the spirit. Nowhere does it say that we groan longing to avoid the second state. Give Scripture--don't make up foolish doctrine. Here is the verse:

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
--Nothing about a comparison to a second state. You are reading into the passage something that is not there.

2 Corinthians 5:5-6 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
--This flatly denies the teaching that you are trying to give: God has given us the earnest of the Spirit. We are confident that when we are at home in this earthly body we are absent from the Lord. The corollary is also true. When we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord (body or no body).

The only "question" that remains in your view - is "how do we know the UNDESIRABLE state is a state with no worship, no fellowship"..

Again, where is this apocryphal made-up SDA scripture that speaks of "an undesirable state?"

 

[TCGreek]

You and I already agreed it is the middle state of death between being alive in this life in this decaying tent.. .and being resurrected with our eternal body.

On post 238 we have my most recent answer to what that state is and why it is to be avoided -



Then on this current page I gave a raft of texts speaking of the functions that cease at death for the one who is "naked" and without any body at all.

in Christ,

Bob

I see that you still can't answer the question of what really is this middle state: Is it soul sleep? It seems like we can't get that out of you, without your roundabouts.

 

[skypair]

The middle state is WORSE than them all and much to be avoided since IT is the state of NO fellowship - no worship. It is easy to see that such a dormant - no-body state is WORSE than any of the three.

You've been shown in Rev 6 and 7 and Phil 1:23 and elsewhere (Mt 22:30 that they are "equal to the angels" after the resurrection of their souls) as well as elsewhere that your "naked"/"decaying" state of "soul sleep" is a patently false assertion.

When I said "good -- better -- best" regarding this body -- death -- bodily resurrection/eternal state, you agreed (maybe you didn't read my post correctly).

Anyway, this is a long running thread for your benefit -- to help you "see" your error. It appears to be a "fool's errand" to talk rationally about scripture with you.

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by TCGreek
So what is this undesired state? Is it soul sleep?

In 2Cor 5 the undesired the state is the one with "no body" at all.

The term Paul uses is "naked" simply to convey that we have no body and that it is as undesired as being naked.

The reason it is not desired was already explained by Paul in 1Cor 15 (to that same church) where he points out without the resurrection not ONLY do we not get our heavenly body - we also have "no hope" even the saints have "perished".

So there are TWO states with fellowship and worship to God - the FIRST stated (in this body - this decaying tent) and the THIRD state (in the heavenly immortal body of 1Cor 15 and 2Cor 5.)

The middle state is WORSE than them all and much to be avoided since IT is the state of NO fellowship - no worship. It is easy to see that such a dormant - no-body state is WORSE than any of the three.

Your problem is that you are stuck saying it is FARRR BETTER than the first and yet you have Paul saying that those in the FIRST state view that as SOOOO undesirable that they IN THIS life GROAN in anxious desire to AVOID it!

TCG
I see that you still can't answer the question of what really is this middle state: Is it soul sleep? It seems like we can't get that out of you, without your roundabouts.

Are you saying that in my detailed response above - you AGREE With that -- you just want to know if I also call that "Soul sleep" because you don't???

How in the world can you be taking such a position?

Suppose I call it "soul middle-state"?? what difference does it make???

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You've been shown in Rev 6 and 7 and Phil 1:23 and elsewhere (Mt 22:30 that they are "equal to the angels" after the resurrection of their souls)

In Matt 22 Christ affirms the Bible truth "God is NOT the God of the dead" and uses that to PROVE that the only solution to the problem for the dead is "the Resurrection" ... "But REGARDING the resurrection... GOD is NOT the God of the Dead". That totally destroys your "living dead" idea.

2Cor 5 and 1Cor 15 SHOW the TIMING -- Phil 1 does not.

Rev 6 shows souls trapped under the altar -- and is a symbol.

as well as elsewhere that your "naked"/"decaying" state of "soul sleep" is a patently false assertion.

Yet another example of "making stuff up". In 2Cor 5 the PAUL (not BOB) says that the middle state for the PERSON is one with NO BODY at all because as Paul says "THIS DECAYING TENT" no longer covers them -- they are unclothed in a state that EVEN the saints in THIS LIFE groan to AVOID according to Paul in 2Cor 5.... Something TCG admitted that he can not explain using his doctrinal POV.

Paul describes it as "good--WORSE--BEST" refering to the middle state as the ONE state to be AVOIDED.

By contrast you post this direct contradiction

When I said "good -- better -- best" regarding this body -- death -- bodily resurrection/eternal state, you agreed (maybe you didn't read my post correctly).

I agree that this is your view and it should be a huge read flag to the reader since it so directly contradicts Paul in 2Cor 5.

1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

Anyway, this is a long running thread for your benefit -- to help you "see" your error. It appears to be a "fool's errand" to talk rationally about scripture with you.

Each time your post reduces to "obligatory ranting" it is a sign to the unbiased objective reader that your point has not survived the Bible test it is being held to -- not sure if you realize that.

in Christ,

Bob