Does the Soul or Spirit Carry Consciousness?

[Andre]

In John 20 "I have not yet ascended to My Father" - we have Christ refusing worship. But later after apparently making that trip - He accepts worship among the disciples.

in Christ,

Bob

Excellent point - a clear refutation of the assertion that Jesus was in Heaven at any point from Good Friday until after the resurrection. What is the response to this? That Jesus' body had not ascended? That seems like an awkward stretch - You would be asserting that the very essence of who Jesus was - his consciousness-bearing spirit - had already been to Heaven and Jesus forgets to mention this and yet He does mention that his bodily shell - the mere "suit" in which his spirit is wrapped - has not ascended to the Father.

What would the fifth-graders think of that?

 

[Andre]

The whole idea that man can be broken into a consciousness-bearing immaterial component and a flesh container for that component is, I would claim, a rejection of God's claim that His created World was "very good".

This dualist view really does relativize the physical by its claim that the essence of who we are - our thoughts, consciousness, loves, wishes, dreams, etc. - are all bundled together in this immaterial soul that lives independently of physical body in which it is housed. No wonder obesity runs rampant in the Christianized west - we have come to accept the subtle falsehood that material creation is merely a kind of "container" for these consciousness bearing souls. So we do not care for our bodies.

In Gen 2:7 we get a different picture - the intermingling of dust and spirit gives rise to personhood.

In Isaiah 11 we get a different picture - "The whole earth is full of His glory."

In Romans 8, Paul opines for the future redemption of the physical world - God is redeeming his creation as Isaiah promises:

You will go out in joy
and be led forth in peace;
the mountains and hills
will burst into song before you,
and all the trees of the field
will clap their hands.
Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree,
and instead of briers the myrtle will grow.
This will be for the LORD's renown,
for an everlasting sign,
which will not be destroyed

Our destiny is not Heaven, but this earth remade and transformed. Jesus does not come at the end to rescue us from the Earth, but to transform the Earth. The physical world - including our bodies - are not mere "containers" for immaterial souls in which is vested our essence. I think it is far more consistent with the tenor of Scripture as a whole to see our physicality as being intimate connected up with who we are - our conscious selves. It seems unlikely to me that God is going to all this effort to redeem the physical world if our bodies are merely "flesh coverings" for an conscious essence that is exlusively immaterial.

 

[DHK]

1. OK, I thought you yourself would deny them naturally because they don't have the bodies. Now you claim they have already bodies and don't need to fetch the bodies by resurrection.

I never said they had bodies. Have you ever discussed this subject with someone who has been involved in Satanism, or knows a lot about demonism. Do you know how much power Satan is able to have on an individual even though he is a spirit--physical power?

2. You revealed the ignorance about the difference between El/Elohim ( Angels) and the Malack ( Pre-enfleshment Jesus Christ). The person who wrestled with Jacob was not angel but the Malack, God the Son before He came to this world in human form. Read Gen 31:11-13 . God can do many things, and you cannot compare HIm with the dead souls.

I don't compare anyone to dead souls. I don't believe in ghosts. I believe in living spirits. There is a difference.

You are butchering the Bible and that's how you can convert the word " sleep" into "Active and Praising"

Perhaps you should read through Rev. chaps. 4 and 5 and see the redeemed saint praising God. In those chapters the resurrection has not yet taken place. The Tribulation doesn't start until chapter 6, but the saints are called redeemed from every nation and every tongue. They have a new name. They are described in such a way that they can only be Christians. They are the saved before the resurrection takes place. They are active and praising the Lord.

The Martyrs are still crying? Maybe it is your misunderstanding! They are resting ! They cried to God before they enter the Rest.
You have to add one more acitivity which I forgot to list "crying ! and speaking loudly !"

They were told to "rest for a while longer" which simply means to wait, or cease from their praying for vengeance, for God would surely give it to them. In no way did God tell them that they were going to sleep. That is reading a whole lot of hooey into the Scriptures. It is the same thing as saying that on 7th day God (after Creation) God fell into a deep sleep--for he "rested"--hogwash!! The sleep mentioned there, and here, simply means to cease from "whatever they were doing. In Genesis he rested or ceased from his creative work. In Genesis they rested or ceased from their intercessory prayer of vengeance. There is no sleep in that text whatsoever. I challenge you to give evidence that there is.

Denial of Soul Sleep coincides exactly with Pagan Heretics ! Pagan Prayer to the Dead.

Actually you have it backwards. The acceptance of soul sleep is a pagan and cultish belief. You should learn that well.

 

[DHK]

quoted by DHK:
"Into thy hands I commit my spirit."
Did he do that or not? Did he lie?

Nope.He and Stephen did the same thing in their death statements.
Placed faith in the Eccl 12 fact that "the spirit of man goes back to God who gave it" at death.

You have no proof of that statement Bob. You take your statements from Ecclesiastes out of context and make them mean something else other then what they are intended to mean. You ignore context completely.
Read the context concerning Stephen. What happened there? He saw Jesus standing, not sitting, at the right hand of God. There He was awaiting the spirit of Stephen as he was being stoned to death. Then when Stephen’s body was finally dead, Jesus was there to accept his triumphant spirit with open arms. He stood welcoming the first Christian martyr to his real home. Previously he was simply a pilgrim passing through a foreign land. Now he is where he belongs—in the land where he has his citizenship (Phil.3:20).

Quote:
Spirits don't sleep.

You mean there is no Scripture to the contrary. Every Scripture that talks of sleep either speaks of physical sleep that the entire body needs, or it is a synonym for death, physical death that has nothing to do with the soul or spirit. There is not one verse in the entire Bible that refers to the sleep of the soul or spirit. You can’t make an argument on silent. I can’t give you Scripture where the Bible is silent. So the onus is on your. You can’t give me Scripture where the Bible speaks of souls or spirits being sleeping. And when you attempt to do so, it only speaks of the physical body, even though you attempt to say otherwise.

No text.

No text that Jesus went down to Hell and proclaimed his victory to the spirits in prison. It is only my duty to take the horse to the watering trough. It is not my duty to force him to drink. I gave you 1Pet.3:19. If unbelief is your problem, I can do nothing about that.

On another front we believe that his spirit was very active. He went and proclaimed his victory to other spirits--in Hell.
No text.

The text is Eph.4:6, but unbelief is your problem. You don’t want to believe that text either. But as the Bible says: Shall their unbelief make the Bible of none effect? The answer of course is no. You can remain in your unbelief. But that doesn’t change the truth of the Bible.

Then he went and led other spirits (OT saints) that were in paradise up to heaven.

NO text says "Jesus lead the spirits in paradise up to heaven"

Well it does Bob. But when you don’t understand the Scriptures and refuse to try to understand the Scriptures I can’t help you. See my above answer.

This all happened before he went back on the third day and united again with his body in the Resurrection. .

No text.

That is an assumption on your part. If you can deny that it did not happen then you can say that there is no text to say that it did. But you can’t just rip 1Pet.3:19 and Eph.4:6 out of your Bibles, neither the story of the rich man and Lazarus, as well as many many other Scriptures.

In John 20 "I have not yet ascended to My Father" - we have Christ refusing worship. But later after apparently making that trip - He accepts worship among the disciples.

Yes, that was after his resurrection.

 

[skypair]

Hello skypair:

I believe that our inheritance is not heaven but a remade and transformed cosmos. To quote NT Wright - heaven is important but it is not the "end of the world". In support of this position I cite Romans 8:18-26

He's right to an extent. God is going to make a New Heavens (atmosphere) and New Earth that will last eternally. But Rom 18-26 doesn't refer to that -- it refers to the MK that precedes it.

I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. [the "childbirth" is the resurrection of the OT saints. Not only so, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has? But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.

I think this text clearly teaches that the created world will be liberated from its decay. Why would God do this if that transformed world is not our eventual home and will eventually be abandoned? What purpose do you think such a transformed physical world will serve if not as our final home.

The world will be liberated so that "all Israel shall be saved" (Rom 11:26)/resurrected and rule the earth for 1000 years. Then, on account of rebellion by Satan (Rev 20:7-9), the believers will be raptured while God recreates the earth (Rev 20:11, 21:1).

So my opinion is the you and NT Wright haven't completely thought this through.

I also restate NT Wright's argument re texts like this from 1 Peter 1:

"Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade—kept in heaven for you."

And that "inheritance" in heaven is New Jerusalem. It is the church's eternal home whereas the earth/New Earth is Israel's eternal inheritance.

But Jesus said He is coming to take us up to that inheritance, John 14:1-4, 1Thes 4:16-17. As you must know, Israel is the "fold" waiting for that "heavenly city" to come from heaven, Heb 11:16. Are SDA's conflicted about whether they are church or Israel?

There are also passages in Isaiah that talk strongly about a remade creation. That is our end state, not heaven. When God created the cosmos, He declared it to be "very good". He has been redeeming his created order from Adam over the long course of history. He is not going to abandon that which he is clearly remaking (Romans 8). A remade creation will be our ultimate home, not heaven.

True, Israel and church will one day live together in the "remade" earth. Do you acknowledge the difference between the Millennial Kingdom of Christ and the remade earth of Kingdom of God?

All of which doesn't get us to the issue that in Rev 6:9 and 7:9 we see martyrs souls living in heaven. You being among those who expect to live into the trib ought to be one of the first to see that there is no "soul sleep" but a resurrection of the soul and spirit to heaven. How do you rationalize all these "white robed" souls worshipping God in heaven?? And why would this be different than dying now and going to heaven??

skypair

 

[skypair]

...but believing that the Souls are doing anything before the start of the actual Heaven is ridiculous idea, and it cannot be found anywhere in the Bible...

1) Heaven is already "started." What you are talking about as "heaven" is the MK on earth. And the bodies of OT saints are "sleeping" until their resurrection into it, Isa 26:19-21.

2) The souls of ALL believers are in heaven above NOW awaiting the coming kingdoms of a) Christ and b) God.

...as the Psalm says the dead persons cannot pray or praise or give thanks to God.

Find the citation and you will find that your interpretation is false. We cannot change our eternal destiny or do any physical good works but Rev 6:9-14 and especially Rev 7:9-10 show us SOULS clothed in "white robes" praying to God and worshipping Him. Even now the dead arrive daily and do this.

Why does Re 6:9-14 says the souls of martyrs are to rest instead of saying "continue to praise"?

Yes, rest like in 2Thes 1:7 -- rest while God bring vengeance on those left behind in the earth following the rapture. That does not mean "sleep" since it is clear that they are already AWAKE in heaven. It means let God do the work in His time. Notice -- these in 6:9 weren't "praising" -- they were impatiently praying for vengeance.

Denial of Soul Sleep is directly linked with paganism, and the heretics.

Actually, "sleep"/unconsciousness and "annihilation" are directly linked to atheism.

skypair

 

[skypair]

And yes - my body will sleep tonight as it does every night. But some of you think that when my body sleeps -- I am dead -- Have no fear that is not true. It is only when my spirit goes to that dormant state of sleep that I will be dead for then my body will be decaying -- dust to dust and NOT sleep-to-dust.

Actually, you have been "made merchandise of" by men preying on your gullibility. "Sleep" has an allegorical and a literal meaning -- and they are not the same.

Do you acknowledge that you can "sleep" without being dead? Do you acknowledge that even when you slumber, you dream? that your spirit/mind is active to that extent?

Have people been able to report their sensations after a clinical "near death experience?"

Would consciousness of something like a dog's bark while you are asleep awaken you? You are not totally unconscious when you sleep then, are you?

Of course, that all this denies Heb 12:22-24 (Paul's 2Cor 12:1-4 experience as if dead or raptured), Rev 6:9 and 7:9 is just so much more evidence that you are wrong.

skypair

 

[Eliyahu]

1) Heaven is already "started." What you are talking about as "heaven" is the MK on earth. And the bodies of OT saints are "sleeping" until their resurrection into it, Isa 26:19-21.

You are distorting the truth. The dead bodies are decaying. The new bodies will be Incorruptible, and the Corruptible bodies will have disappeared permanently. They are not sleeping ! They will not be resurrected as they were, but the souls will wear new bodies. Read 1 Cor 15. Heavens in the minds of the Believers started already, but the Heaven with Jesus Christ has not started. If it has already started, then you are saying Re 22 has already come true. You'd better learn the language on this argument first before you participate here.

Find the citation and you will find that your interpretation is false. We cannot change our eternal destiny or do any physical good works but Rev 6:9-14 and especially Rev 7:9-10 show us SOULS clothed in "white robes" praying to God and worshipping Him. Even now the dead arrive daily and do this.

So, do you read " they should rest yet" ? Where do you find "praying to God and worshipping Him" ? That's how you invent a Bible !

Yes, rest like in 2Thes 1:7 -- rest while God bring vengeance on those left behind in the earth following the rapture. That does not mean "sleep" since it is clear that they are already AWAKE in heaven.

Can you still say this to awakened people?

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light ( Eph 5:14)

Remember this : 1) in your theology, they are already awake. 2) the resurrection of their bodies are beyond their control.

Do you shout to your family " Awake" when they are already awake in the morning?

It means let God do the work in His time. Notice -- these in 6:9 weren't "praising" -- they were impatiently praying for vengeance.

Remember this, DHK claimed the souls are praising God.

Souls of Martyrs cried only before they entered the Rest.
Is praising included in the rest?

Actually, "sleep"/unconsciousness and "annihilation" are directly linked to atheism.
skypair

Bible repeatedly says the dead Believers are sleeping, Is the Bible linked to the atheism?

Check thru the Bible, and you can find clearly
- " Souls" represent the persons, individuals.
- Believers are sleeping after the death.
Therefore we can believe that the souls of the Believers are sleeping after the death.

Read the Bible verses which tell you the Sleep of the dead people. Jesus and Bible wouldn't have said the dead are sleeping while they are running, flying, praising, playing, building, studying.

Lazarus fell asleep ( Jn11)
Stephen fell asleep ( Ac 7:60)
Sinned Believers sleep ( 1 Cor 11:30) after death
We shall not all sleep ( 1 Cor 15:51) ( if we sing and praise God, then he wouldn’t have said so)
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope (1 Th 4:13) ( Because Paul knew that they were sleeping!)
God will bring them who sleep in Jesus ( 1 Th 4:14)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep ( 1 Th 4:15)
Who died for us, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. ( 1 Th 5:10) – we see sleep is used in contrast to Wake.

Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished ( 1 Cor 15:18)
1 Cor 15 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Jesus noticed the dormant state of the dead girl and therefore said this:

He said unto them, Give place: for the maid is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn ( Mt 9:24)
- Jesus didn't equate Dead=Sleep, but indicated Sleep=Alive

And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. ( Luke 8:52)

Wherefore he saith, Awake thou that sleepest, and arise from the dead, and Christ shall give thee light. ( Eph 5:14)

RE 6:9
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Re 14:13
And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

 

[DHK]

You are distorting the truth. The dead bodies are decaying. The new bodies will be Incorruptible, and the Corruptible bodies will have disappeared permanently. They are not sleeping ! They will not be resurrected as they were, but the souls will wear new bodies. Read 1 Cor 15. Heavens in the minds of the Believers started already, but the Heaven with Jesus Christ has not started. If it has already started, then you are saying Re 22 has already come true. You'd better learn the language on this argument first before you participate here.

Who is distorting the truth?? What you have described is akin to heresy. Let's look at Scripture:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and what we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

First, whatever Jesus body is like, in many ways our bodies will be the same--"we shall be like him."
"The dead bodies are decaying; the new bodies are incorruptible."
They are not different bodies as you suppose. They are the same bodies. The body becomes glorified.
The corruptible body does not disappear completely as you say. That is not true. That borders on heresy, IMO.

Go back to the incident with Thomas, and what do we read?
Thomas said: Unless I put my hand in his side, see the wounds of his hands, I will not believe.
A week later Jesus appeared and Thomas was present. He beckoned for Thomas to come near. What did he say? Thrust forth your hand into my side. Behold my hands and my feet; and be not unbelieving.

Did Jesus have a different body. Did his "corruptible body" disappear completely? Absolutely not. In fact they retained many of the same scars that caused his suffering.
We shall be like him. Our bodies will be like his. They, in many ways will be like his. We will be able to recognize each other for we will have some of the same features that we had in this life. They are not completely new bodies. They are the same bodies but glorified. That is what the Scriptures teach. What you are teaching is a denial of the resurrection of Christ.

 

[Eliyahu]

Who is distorting the truth?? What you have described is akin to heresy. Let's look at Scripture:

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and what we shall be has not yet been manifested; we know that if it is manifested we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

First, whatever Jesus body is like, in many ways our bodies will be the same--"we shall be like him."
"The dead bodies are decaying; the new bodies are incorruptible."
They are not different bodies as you suppose. They are the same bodies. The body becomes glorified.
The corruptible body does not disappear completely as you say. That is not true. That borders on heresy, IMO.

Distortion started from the modification of the Bible from " Sleep" into "death". If you take the words, " sleep" as they are, you would have asked yourself what is sleeping. Instead, you distorted the Bible wordings as you were willing to make mistakes.

Read the Bible 1 Cor 15 and 2 Cor 5.

1 Cor 15
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul clearly says, Bodies are different each other like Earthly Bodies, Natural Bodies, Terrestrial Bodies, versus Celestial Bodies, Spiritual Bodies, Heavenly Bodies. Are you saying they are the same each other?
So, you wear the same corruptible bodies after resurrection?
Or does the Bible say that the Corruptible Bodies become Incorruptible? Read the above Bible verses and you will find they are totally different each other. One thing I can forsee is that there will be a certain linkage between the Celestial Body and the Terrestrial Body as I once mentioned. The linkage doesn't mean the same bodies. One body will be decayed completely, and they will not be awakened. Souls will be clothed with the new bodies.
Read here.
2 Cor 5
1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Is the Earthly tabernacle the same with the Building of God?
If we wear the same body, then how can Paul say " we shall not be found naked" ?
Is the Mortality the same as Immortality?

Are the dead bodies still sleeping? They are decaying ! What is Bible talking about when it says : them who sleep in Jesus (1 The 4:14) ?
It is Soul because the body is decaying and disappearing.

Go back to the incident with Thomas, and what do we read?
Thomas said: Unless I put my hand in his side, see the wounds of his hands, I will not believe.
A week later Jesus appeared and Thomas was present. He beckoned for Thomas to come near. What did he say? Thrust forth your hand into my side. Behold my hands and my feet; and be not unbelieving.

Did Jesus have a different body. Did his "corruptible body" disappear completely? Absolutely not. In fact they retained many of the same scars that caused his suffering.
We shall be like him. Our bodies will be like his. They, in many ways will be like his. We will be able to recognize each other for we will have some of the same features that we had in this life. They are not completely new bodies. They are the same bodies but glorified. That is what the Scriptures teach. What you are teaching is a denial of the resurrection of Christ.

Was the body of Jesus Christ corrupted?
You cannot compare Body of Jesus with the Bodies of the resurrected Believers, and the corrupted bodies of the Believers.

Moreover, even in case of Jesus Christ, do you expect He will carry the wounded body eternally even after the Great Judgment and the Entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven?

If you don't believe that we will wear the new body, your Heaven may not be hopeful and need remedy work many times.

 

[DHK]

Distortion started from the modification of the Bible from " Sleep" into "death". If you take the words, " sleep" as they are, you would have asked yourself what is sleeping. Instead, you distorted the Bible wordings as you were willing to make mistakes.

Read the Bible 1 Cor 15 and 2 Cor 5.

1 Cor 15
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

Paul clearly says, Bodies are different each other like Earthly Bodies, Natural Bodies, Terrestrial Bodies, versus Celestial Bodies, Spiritual Bodies, Heavenly Bodies. Are you saying they are the same each other?
So, you wear the same corruptible bodies after resurrection?
Or does the Bible say that the Corruptible Bodies become Incorruptible? Read the above Bible verses and you will find they are totally different each other.

I find it odd that you stop at verse 50. Why not include verse 51?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed,
That decayed body that you speak of will be changed into a glorified body. It is not that this soul will be given a completely new body. That again denies the resurrection. It denies the resurrection of Christ. It denies our resurrection. The Bible teaches that our bodies will be resurrected. It does not teach that our old bodies will stay in the graves rotten and decayed, and we will gain something new from another planet made out of superglue or whatever. We will be changed! We will rise from the dead! We will be resurrected. Your theology denies the resurrection!
What is the gospel?
Do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ?
Do you believe that believers will be resurrected?
Do you believe that unbelievers will be resurrected?
How do you define "resurrection"?

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eliyahu
1. OK, I thought you yourself would deny them naturally because they don't have the bodies. Now you claim they have already bodies and don't need to fetch the bodies by resurrection.

DHK
I never said they had bodies. Have you ever discussed this subject with someone who has been involved in Satanism, or knows a lot about demonism. Do you know how much power Satan is able to have on an individual even though he is a spirit--physical power?

I believe you are missing the point - in 2Cor 5:1-3 we see the "eternal body" the heavenly one that is given to us at the resurrection after this decaying tent is destroyed at our death. Many on this board -- and I believe you may be one of them - claim that this 2Cor 5 immortal eternal body is given to us immediately at death -- then go on to claim that the immortal eternal body of 1Cor 15 given to us at the resurrection is ALSO given...

Seems like an odd doctrine to me. It ends up as Body sharing even though nobody is admitting it or solving it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Do you acknowledge that you can "sleep" without being dead? Do you acknowledge that even when you slumber, you dream? that your spirit/mind is active to that extent?

Eliyahu said

Lazarus fell asleep ( Jn11)
Stephen fell asleep ( Ac 7:60)
Sinned Believers sleep ( 1 Cor 11:30) after death
We shall not all sleep ( 1 Cor 15:51) ( if we sing and praise God, then he wouldn’t have said so)
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope (1 Th 4:13) ( Because Paul knew that they were sleeping!)
God will bring them who sleep in Jesus ( 1 Th 4:14)
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep ( 1 Th 4:15)
Who died for us, Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. ( 1 Th 5:10) – we see sleep is used in contrast to Wake.

Skypair said
Have people been able to report their sensations after a clinical "near death experience?"

Would consciousness of something like a dog's bark while you are asleep awaken you? You are not totally unconscious when you sleep then, are you?

Those who almost die then come back -- are not "resurrected" they were never dead.

Of course, that all this denies Heb 12:22-24 (Paul's 2Cor 12:1-4 experience as if dead or raptured)

In Heb 12 Paul never claims to be "asleep" or "dead" or "to have died".

So nothing in there to support your POV.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

I find it odd that you stop at verse 50. Why not include verse 51?

1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all fall asleep, but we shall all be changed,
That decayed body that you speak of will be changed into a glorified body. It is not that this soul will be given a completely new body. That again denies the resurrection. It denies the resurrection of Christ. It denies our resurrection. The Bible teaches that our bodies will be resurrected. It does not teach that our old bodies will stay in the graves rotten and decayed, and we will gain something new from another planet made out of superglue or whatever. We will be changed! We will rise from the dead! We will be resurrected. Your theology denies the resurrection!
What is the gospel?
Do you believe in the resurrection of Jesus Christ?
Do you believe that believers will be resurrected?
Do you believe that unbelievers will be resurrected?
How do you define "resurrection"?

Again, you are changing the Bible.

Bible says : We will be changed.

DHK says : Bodies will be changed.

Which is correct?

Of course you will say " DHK is correct over Bible "

 

[BobRyan]

A few simple examples will do

DHK said Quote:
Spirits don't sleep.

No text.

DHK Said Quote:
On another front we believe that his spirit was very active. He went and proclaimed his victory to other spirits--in Hell.

No text.

DHKQuote:
Then he went and led other spirits (OT saints) that were in paradise up to heaven.

NO text says "Jesus lead the spirits in paradise up to heaven"

Now for DHK's answer --

-------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Quote:
Spirits don't sleep.

You mean there is no Scripture to the contrary. Every Scripture that talks of sleep either speaks of physical sleep that the entire body needs, or it is a synonym for death, physical death that has nothing to do with the soul or spirit.

Wrong. It always deals with the PERSON -- if ALIVE the person AND the body is sleeping.

If dead -- then the BODY is decaying dust-to-dust and the PERSON is dorman in spirit "sleeping".

You can’t give me Scripture where the Bible speaks of souls or spirits being sleeping. And when you attempt to do so, it only speaks of the physical body, even though you attempt to say otherwise.

The Bible says the Body is "decaying TENT" that is "Dust to dust" at death but the PERSON the soul/spirit is dormant and sleeping.

A visit to the morgue will SHOW that the BODY is not SLEEPING.

DHK
Quote:
No text.
No text that Jesus went down to Hell and proclaimed his victory to the spirits in prison.

True enough - no text.

It is only my duty to take the horse to the watering trough. It is not my duty to force him to drink. I gave you 1Pet.3:19.

True but careful exegesis of 1Peter 3 shows that it can not be turned to the interpretation you needed.

DHK
Quote:
DHK said
On another front we believe that his spirit was very active. He went and proclaimed his victory to other spirits--in Hell.


Bob said: No text.

DHK said -

The text is Eph.4:6, but unbelief is your problem.

Fine -- show that a careful exegesis of it SHOWS the meaning you need to get from it?

I notice that this is usually your stopping point.

DHK

Quote:
DHK - Then he went and led other spirits (OT saints) that were in paradise up to heaven.

Bob said -- NO text says "Jesus lead the spirits in paradise up to heaven"

DHK said --

Well it does Bob. But when you don’t understand the Scriptures and refuse to try to understand the Scriptures I can’t help you. See my above answer.

I see them - -no text quoted to SHOW that any of your claims were actually true.

Rather you gave a reference and simply ignored what the text at that reference says.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

DHK,
Your definition of Resurrection must be

Resurrection of Natural Body, of Terrestrial Body, of Earthy Body only.

My Resurrection will be with Celestial Body, Heavenly Body, Spiritual Body.

 

[DHK]

Many on this board -- and I believe you may be one of them - claim that this 2Cor 5 immortal eternal body is given to us immediately at death -- then go on to claim that the immortal eternal body of 1Cor 15 given to us at the resurrection is ALSO given...

Seems like an odd doctrine to me. It ends up as Body sharing even though nobody is admitting it or solving it.

in Christ,

Bob

No, that again would be to deny the resurrection. The body goes to the grave and "sleeps." That is it is dead; it decays. It has no spirit; no soul. The spirit goes either to heaven or hell without the body. At the resurrection it will unite with the body. There is no soul sleep. That is a false doctrine. Go to all the passages in Rev.4,5,6, etc. and see the evidence of all the spirits praising the Lord. They are alive, though they be spirits. Look at the evidence of spirit beings all around us, whether they be angels, demons or otherwise. See the activity of the Holy Spirit, the account of the spirit of Jesus. What happens when a person is born again and the Holy Spirit indwells the believer?
What does the verse mean?
"Greater is he that is in you than he that is in the world."
It is obvious that spirits don't need bodies. There are many demons in this world--all without bodies.
What is it that makes it so difficult for you to believe that our spirits need a body to dwell in heaven before the resurrection. Satan stood before God, along with the sons of God--in Job chapter one. Was he a spirit or not?

 

[DHK]

Again, you are changing the Bible.

Bible says : We will be changed.

DHK says : Bodies will be changed.

Which is correct?

Of course you will say " DHK is correct over Bible "

And which pronoun do you think the Holy Spirit should have prompted Paul to use? IT perhaps? sorry that doesn't make sense. I'll take the Holy Spirit over Bob, any day?

 

[BobRyan]

No, that again would be to deny the resurrection. The body goes to the grave and "sleeps." That is it is dead; it decays. It has no spirit; no soul. The spirit goes either to heaven or hell without the body.

Again - what did you do with the immortal eternal body of 2Cor 5?

Are you now agreeing with me that 2Cor 5 IS speaking of the resurrection???!!

If so - where have you been all these years when that topic has come up??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

On that note -- I will once again sleep only to "rise again" in the morning.