Does the Soul or Spirit Carry Consciousness?

[Eliyahu]

DHK,

1. You do not realize the repeated difference between your paraphrase of the Bible and the Bible wording itself.

Bible states this : the dead shall be raised incorruptible ( 1 Cor 15:52) You insert your own definition of "death" disregarding what the Bible says about death.

DHK says " Corruptbile body will be raised.

Now I am copying the exact verse of 15:52
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Can you see the difference between your statement and the Bbile Statement?
Which one is the same as the Bible statement, between mine and yours?
The arguments and heresy starts from the minor change of the scriptures.

2. YOu have not checked the history of Soul Sleep. There were heavy argument between Calvin and Anabaptists about the Soul Sleep.
Martin Luther believed it. William Tyndale believed it. Check about it for yourself.
3. My belief on Soul Sleep and Tyndale' ( Martin Luther as well) is different from JW's.
JW's believe that the souls die along with the body.
or Some dictionaries define the Soul Sleep as the extinction of the souls at the time of death of bodies, then the souls are resurrected at the time of resurrection, which deny the immortality of the souls.
But my belief is that the souls are immortal and still alive and go to the Paradise to be with the Lord, to take rest in the Lord. They are ready to wake up any time by the calls of God, thru the angels.
If you claim that the souls are praising God, praying continuously to God for 2000 years, 7 days a week, 24 hours a day, 3600 seconds per hour, you will never be able to deny the Intercession ( not the prayer to the dead) by the dead saints for the people on the earth, because one can ask the dead believer to intercede for him or for her, to God. Truth is not connected to the heresy like that.

 

[Eliyahu]

Finally, if you are so much confident that the Souls are active and doing many things other than sleeping in a dormant state, then please try to show the convincing evidence of their activities and their results and performance, which will end up all the arguments.

For my defense, it is very simple because I am claiming that the souls are doing nothing, taking rest by sleeping.

But for your defense, if you want to clear up the arguments, you need to present the activities of the souls in the heaven after death, not the activities of the angels, nor of the living creatures, nor of the raptured believers, nor of the Believers coming out of the Great Tribulation.

If there is no convincing evidence from the Bible for the activities of the souls after death, the case is closed for me.

As for Martin Luther and William Tyndale, there might be some better sites, but I have only this Info. ( may be from a Baptist) I don't agree with ML in many issues and even on this. But Tyndale may have had the belief similar to mine.
http://www.bibletopics.com/BIBLESTUDY/136.htm

 

[Eliyahu]

Calvin's opposition to the Soul Sleep of the Anabaptists


http://www.reformed.org/sacramentol...ww.reformed.org/sacramentology/lee/index.html


http://www.reformed.org/sacramentol...ww.reformed.org/sacramentology/lee/index.html

 

[Eliyahu]

Calvin's opposition to the Anabaptists' soul-sleep theory

Calvin's Psychopannychia is especially important. He wrote it in 1534, and published it in 1542 -- against the Anabaptist doctrine261 of soul-sleep. This is still taught today by certain neo-Anabaptist groups, such as the Seventh-day Adventists and the so-called Jehovah's witnesses.
"These babblers have so actively exerted themselves," wrote Calvin in the Forward to his book about the soul- sleep theory of the Anabaptists,262 "that they have already drawn thousands into their insanity. And even the error itself has, I see, been aggravated. At first, some only vaguely alleged that the soul sleeps -- without defining what they wished to be understood by 'sleep.' Afterwards arose those psucho-ktonoi, who 'murder souls' -- though without inflicting a wound. The error of the former, indeed, was not to be borne.... The madness of the latter ought to be severely repressed....
"The evil...makes far too much progress..., gaining ground daily and eating in like a cancer. Nor does it now appear for the first time. For we read that it originated with some Arabs, who maintained that 'the soul dies with the body and that both rise again at the Day of Judgment.' Eusebius: Church History VI:36[ff]....
"It lay smouldering for some ages, but has lately begun to send forth sparks -- being stirred up by some dregs of Anabaptists. These, spread abroad far and wide, have kindled torches.... Would that they were soon extinguished by that voluntary rain which the Lord hath set apart for His inheritance! ... Amid those tumults of vain opinions..., giddy spirits disturb the peace."
Calvin next explained263 that he was "referring to the nefarious herd of Anabaptists, from whose fountain this noxious stream did...first flow.... It was certainly much more my intention to bring all back into the right way, than to provoke them.... Those err who, when the Word of God is brought to light which had been laid aside though perverse custom or sloth, charge it with novelty." Others, however, "err in the opposite direction." For such [others] are like reeds driven by the wind -- nay, [such] nod and bend at the slightest breeze."
Now the soulsleep-Anabaptists "with the greatest confidence, as if from a tripod, give forth decisions upon all things.... This is the head of the evil, while they proceed obstinately to defend whatever they have once rashly babbled.... What do they not pervert? What do they not adulterate and corrupt -- that they may (I do not say bend but) distort it to their own view?"
Consequently: "Is this the way of learning -- to roll the Scriptures over and over, and twist them about in search of something that may minister to our lusts or to force them into subjection to our senses? Nothing can be more absurd than this -- O pernicious pest, O tares certainly sown by an enemy's hand for the purpose of rendering the true seed useless! ... It is certainly no trivial matter to see God's light extinguished by the devil's darkness."

Anabaptist soul-sleep refuted in Calvin's Psychopannychia

In the main text of his Psychopannychia itself, Calvin insisted264 that the [expanding] human "breath of life is distinguished from the [limited] souls of brutes.... Whence do the souls of...animals arise? God says, 'Let the earth bring forth the living soul' etc. [Genesis 1:24]. Let that which has sprung from earth, be resolved into earth! But the soul of man is not from the earth." It come s directly from God. Genesis 2:7 cf. Ecclesiastes 12:7.
"God created man, and made him after His own image [Genesis 1:26].... The image of God extended [and would keep on expanding].... Man [is] inexterminable -- because created in the image of God.... God created the great whales and every living soul (Genesis 1:21).... A 'living soul' is repeatedly attributed to the brutes, because they too have their own life. But they live after one way; man after another.... The soul of man possesses reason, intellect, and will.... It subsists without the body, and does not perish like the brutes which have nothing more than their bodily senses....
"Man, if he had not fallen, would have been immortal.... The elect now are such as Adam was before his sin.... He was created inexterminable. So, now, have those become who have been renewed by Christ....
"As their most powerful battering ram, they [the soulsleep-Anabaptists] urge against us...the passage in...Ecclesiastes: 'I [viz. Solomon] said in my heart, of the children of men, that God would prove them to shew that they were like the brutes; as man dies, so do they also die.' But God then declares that "the spirit of the sons of Adam ascends upwards, and the spirit of beasts descends downwards." Stated Calvin: "The wisdom of God explains -- assuring us that the spirit of the sons of Adam ascends upwards!" Ecclesiastes 3:18-21 cf. 12:7; Second Peter 2:12; Revelation 6:9f & 20:12f.
Thus, the Anabaptists' soul-sleep doctrine is thoroughly unbiblical. Concluded Calvin:265 "I again desire all my readers...to remember that the Catabaptists -- whom, as embodying all kinds of abominations, it is sufficient to have named -- are the authors of this famous dogma. Well may we suspect anything that proceeds from such a forge -- a forge which has already fabricated, and is daily fabricating, so many monsters!"


Calvin refutes the Anabaptist denial of postmortal consciousness

Continued Calvin:"The second issue...is that the Anabaptists in general all hold that souls, being departed from the body, cease to live until the day of the resurrection.... This was the error of the Sadducees, which was expressly reproved in Scripture [Acts 23:6f].... Let the Anabaptists [then] hold to the quarrel of the Sadducees their predecessors - - and maintain it against Saint Paul" and even against Jesus Himself! Luke 16:23-28 & 20:27f.
"We have reproved the error of the Anabaptists, who make believe that souls sleep as if dead and without any consciousness.... The unfaithful person's soul, [however] -- being departed from the body -- is like a malefactor who has already received his sentence of condemnation and now awaits only the hour when he shall be led to the gallows for execution.... They are in extreme agony, awaiting the execution of their sentence....
"Faithful souls, after death, we can say...are at rest. Not because they are in a perfect state of blessedness or glory, but because they are content with the joy and consolation that God grants them while awaiting the day of their final redemption.... The Anabaptist's delusion concerning the sleep of souls was never advocated by anyone, save by a heretical sect called the 'Arabs' -- and by Pope John of Rome some [two] hundred and thirty years ago."

http://www.reformed.org/sacramentol...ww.reformed.org/sacramentology/lee/index.html

I am not sure what Calvin said about the belief of Anabaptists are true.
We should not buy the Mercedes cars thru Toyota dealers.

 

[Eliyahu]

Bob Ryan,

Before I dust off this thread, please let me know SDA' s position on the Immortality of the Souls.

JW say souls die along with the bodies. Unbelievers disappear eternally.
But the believers souls are resurrected after the death.

How about SDA?

Do the souls die and then will be resurrected along with bodies?

 

[BobRyan]

Finally, if you are so much confident that the Souls are active and doing many things other than sleeping in a dormant state, then please try to show the convincing evidence of their activities and their results and performance, which will end up all the arguments.

For my defense, it is very simple because I am claiming that the souls are doing nothing, taking rest by sleeping.

Matt 22:23-34 Christ insists that God is not the God of the dead.

Praise to God - ceases at death
Ps 115:17 the dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence;
18 [b]but as for us, we will bless[/b] the lord from this time forth and forever. Praise the lord!
Ps30:9 yet clearly when the living worship we "worship in spirit" John 4:24 -

No thanks or praise to God given by those that are dead.
Is 38:18 “for sheol cannot thank you, death cannot praise you; those who go down to the pit cannot hope for your faithfulness.
19 “it is the living who give thanks to you, as I do today;

No memory of God
Ps 6:5for there is no mention of you in death; in sheol who will give you thanks?

No thought activity

Ps 146:2 I will sing praises to my God while I have my being.
3 do not trust in princes, in mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4 his spirit departs, he returns to the earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
5 how blessed is he whose help is the God of Jacob,
Ecclesiasties 9:5-6 they have no activity

Ps 143
3Do not trust in princes,
In mortal man, in whom there is no salvation.
4His spirit departs, he returns to the earth;
In that very day his thoughts perish.

Isaiah 38
18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.


Those are examples of texts that in context intend to deal directly with what activity is available to you while dead.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Ryan,

Before I dust off this thread, please let me know SDA' s position on the Immortality of the Souls.

JW say souls die along with the bodies. Unbelievers disappear eternally.
But the believers souls are resurrected after the death.

How about SDA?

Do the souls die and then will be resurrected along with bodies?

SDAs say from "Eccl 12" that the spirit of ALL mankind goes back to God who gave it at death.

The Body is decaying and turns to dust "dust to dust" it is not "sleeping".

God then takes that same spirit and gives it a NEW body at "the resurrection" of 1Thess 4 when "the DEAD in Christ RISE first".

As Christ said in Matt 22 "God is not the god of the DEAD" speaking directly to the context of Abraham being dead when God is speaking to Moses.

Christ said of Lazarus "Lazarus IS DEAD" Meaing in the state of death -- his body decaying and his spirit dormant.

AS for what the JW's believe - I know they do not believe in an immortal soul - but not sure exactly how they define this.

BTW thanks for the link to Tyndale and Luther's historic views on this topic.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1. When we read John's narrative, the disciples didn't understand a lot of things, until after the resurrection. When Jesus referred to His body as a temple, they didn't get it (John 2).

2. If Jesus had simply said DEAD, they would have gotten it, but Lazarus' death was to result in the glory of God and the Son.

3. Again, the Bible doesn't say that death means a "dormant state of sleep." The Bible says death is the spirit's separation from the body (James 2:26). That is what I see.

The point is that when Christ said "Lazarus SLEEPs" he is referring to dormant state of the PERSON in DEATH and not a living bodily-sleeping mortal.

The body DECAYS the spirit SLEEPs.

There is no possibility of observing a dead body decaying and saying "it is just sleeping".

But a REAL spirit that is REALLY dormant is REALLY in the unconscious state!

 

[BobRyan]

DHK

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1106664&postcount=152

I think your argument just blinked.

Don't know why you guys are letting this bombshell go without comment.

 

[skypair]

2. You must know that the OT statements are often general about the Resurrection and therefore Saduccees didn't believe the Resurrection.

Not "general," just different. Not the same as 1Thes 4:16-17 but to the earth (cf. Job 14:13-14, 19:25-28, Dan 12:2, Psa 50:3-5, etc.)

In NT Bible explains how the dead bodies are resurrected, and explains about the dead Believers who sleep in Jesus Christ ( 1 The 4:14).

Yes, this is the rapture. And it is the resurrection of the dead BODY to glory.

3. Isa 26 defends my belief.

Honestly, it doesn't. It is the BODY that Isaiah is saying will sleep until the indignation overpasses.

4. What were the souls doing if the dead can sing only after the Resurrection? Why can't you find any proof that the souls were active after the death?

OT saints were aware that their souls would go to sheol awaiting the resurrection of the body. There Jesus speaks of the rich man and Lazarus.

1. I can accept the Cry as their prayer for a moment. But do they cry or pray all the time since 2000 years ago?

These are martyrs exclusively out of the first half of the 7 year tribulation.

Remember this they cried before they were given the White Robes, before they entered the Rest, when the 5th Seal was opened. It means that they were crying when they martyred and were taken up to the Lord in the beginning. Thereafter they rested. Do you claim they continue to cry in prayer for 2000 years? Please don't torture the Martyrs ! Let them rest.

Oh PU-LEEASE! Your mere suggestion that they cry 2000 years show it is YOU that has no familiarity with The Revelation. The altar is in HEAVEN, not on earth where they died. Their SOULS arrive conscious -- not "sleeping" as you suggest happens at death. But just so you know, John bows down to one of these "angels" later in the book, Rev 19:10 -- "And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." This is clearly (at least to me) a left behind church saint's spirit.

2 As for Re 7. You revealed very much ignorance about the Revelation. This tells me you are denying the Soul Sleep without knowing much of the Revelation.

Wow! A man who doesn't even know he is "wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:" Rev 3:19 raying: Jesus said you guys would be showing up!

Re 7 : 9-17 was not the scene of what actually happened, but it was the preliminary overview Revelation for the future. Do you think they praised the Lord coming out of the Great Tribulation already? ...

It's called PROPHECY, Eli, when things are FOREtold!

Their praises are not the praise by the souls, but by the actual people with the bodies. You may be able to claim that they are the raptured people, but even in that case, they are still with the actual bodies. If you read the chapter 7 carefully, they are coming out of the Tribulation and one can reasonably believe that they are saved from the Tribulation by the Lord Jesus Christ and His second coming, not by the Rapture.

Well, I guess that could be the view of postribbers and I know it is of prewrathers. There's no real grounds for those though because these wear "white robes" just like the earlier martyrs in Rev 6:9 -- WHICH WERE SOULS!

Are they crying in the heaven for 2000 years? What is the daily schedule of the life in the Heaven?

Again 2000 years? You haven't a clue what PROPHECY is, have you?

Why did the word " sleep" became the word for Death?

Similarity, right. When you sleep, your mind/spirit is in "another world," is it not? It is dreaming, often regurgitating snipets of the day's events in dreams. When you go to heaven, you arrive with your same mind you left earth with but you won't be dreaming. Likely you will be thinking (as these in Rev 6:9 were) of what has just happened to you -- of loved ones left behind.

Your concept I do not find in the Bible.

Can one still say that Lazarus is sleeping while his souls are singing and flying around the world?

Huh? How does this become the alternative to his body being in the grave and his soul being in heaven? Likely his soul was in sheol below (Christ not having arisen and set the captives free). Thus, his soul likely came up as Samuel's did.

It can be your own Litmus paper, sadly. But I must tell you this. False accusation came from the devil. You have to be very careful. I am not damned, unfortunately to you. I am very much blessed because of what Jesus had done for me at the Cross. If you believe you have a better theology, you must behave like that. Otherwise, you are proving that you are standing on the wrong grounds, on the sinking sands.

Can Christ actually do anything for you if He was only a man and not God Himself? I say no. I do know SDA's who were saved apart from the tenets of SDA and, like most Calvinists, are led away by "false brethren unaware who ... bring [you] into bondage," Gal 2:4.

skypair

 

[skypair]

...and that the PERSON - was in a dormant state of SLEEP since the body was DEAD.

This is NOT a fact offered by the text, friend. That is you reading your theology into it. Jesus merely speaks of the state of Lazarus BODY. He NEVER makes any comment or inference as to the state of Lazarus soul and spirit. The only person that "dormant" is "obvious" to is YOU. Go read it again.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Hmm so the "immortal eternal body" of 2Cor5 is the body we get at the resurrection - the same one we see in 1Cor 15 in your view?

I, for one, disagree that the bodies are the same.

The body in 1Cor 15 is a body of "terrestrial glory." It is earthly and Spirit-indwelt but still "flesh and blood" which CANNOT inherit the KoG (heaven, NJ, or New Earth), 1Cor 15:50. We have such bodies now -- the OT saints will receive such at the "resurrection of the just" into the MK. The main difference is that they are resurrected from death into their bodies but we are resurrected from life.

In 2Cor 5 Paul is speaking of a body of "celestial glory" in heaven. NOT "flesh and blood" but flesh and bone. It is not possible for "flesh and blood" to inherit heaven because there is no oxygen, for one.

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

The point is that when Christ said "Lazarus SLEEPs" he is referring to dormant state of the PERSON in DEATH and not a living bodily-sleeping mortal.

1. When Christ said "Lazarus SLEEPs," John says that we was speaking of his death (John 11:13); let's respect the silence.

The body DECAYS the spirit SLEEPs.

2. Where did you read that? Book, Chapter and Verse?

There is no possibility of observing a dead body decaying and saying "it is just sleeping".

3. That is if you want to commit the analogy fallacy, meaning the thing being illustrated must correspond 100% to the next. Let's respect scriptural silence here.

But a REAL spirit that is REALLY dormant is REALLY in the unconscious state!

4. Are you reading back your understanding of sleeping into the biblical record? Where does the Bible say that this is the case?

 

[BobRyan]

Bob noting (asking for clarification) on DHK's position in 2Cor 5 (where he is now being very very verrrry quiet)

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
Hmm so the "immortal eternal body" of 2Cor5 is the body we get at the resurrection - the same one we see in 1Cor 15 in your view?

Skypair

I, for one, disagree that the bodies are the same.

Then you and DHK do not seem to be in agreement -- not just you and me.

And you are left with "body sharing" with two immortal eternal bodies. Might want to explain your wait out of that when you get a minute.

Skypair
The body in 1Cor 15 is a body of "terrestrial glory." It is earthly

In 1Cor 15 Paul says "IT IS HEAVENLY". Your post is then given by way of direct contradiction to Paul in 1Cor 15.

1Cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

45 So also it is written, ""The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL.'' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
47 The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.



48 As is [b]the earthy, so also are those who are earthy[/b]; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also[/b] bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now I say this, brethren, that [b]flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; [b]we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and [b]this mortal[/b] will have put on immortality, [/B]then will come about the saying that is written, "" [b]DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.[/B]

 

[BobRyan]

2Cor 5:1-3 bombshell still going untouched here. Curious-er and curious-er

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
DHK

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...&postcount=152

I think your argument just blinked.


Don't know why you guys are letting this bombshell go without comment.

 

[BobRyan]

11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if his body has fallen asleep, IT will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,

15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to IT.''
16 Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ""Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.''
17 So when Jesus came, He found that his sleeping body had already been in the tomb four days.


Now let’s edit and abuse the text to FIT the doctrine of those who claim that the PERSON does not die – the PERSON does not sleep – but only “the body of the person”.

So we will REPLACE the personal pronouns with the “IT” language as if IT was the body of Lazarus SLEEPING while LAZARUS remains awake!!


John 11 (IV) IMAGINARY VERSION

10 ""But if anyone walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.''

11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus is AWAKE but his body has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken IT out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of Lazarus body and that IT was dead, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep of the PERSON.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is NOT dead – His body is asleep in death however,


15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to IT so that his body may be awake like HE is..''
16 Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ""Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.''
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had not been in the tomb but his BODY had already been in the tomb four days.

 

[TCGreek]

1. BTW, when God finished the work of creation and RESTED on the seventh day, Did He go to sleep?

2. So there's a REST that really doesn't mean sleep but cessation of some activity, so why not apply this to Rev 6:9-11; 14:13?

 

[BobRyan]

1. BTW, when God finished the work of creation and RESTED on the seventh day, Did He go to sleep?

No text says "God sleeps I go that I may wake Him"

NO text says "concerning God who sleeps - the DEAD in Christ shall rise first".

NO text uses the term SLEEP and DEAD the way we see in John 11 and 1Thess 4 -- for God.

(Again I am just stating the obvious)

2. So there's a REST that really doesn't mean sleep but cessation of some activity, so why not apply this to Rev 6:9-11; 14:13?

Agreed - REST in Isaiah 59 references DYING and BEING dead.

But in Rev 6 it speaks of the DEAD lumped under the altar as being told to rest after they complain. Clearly a symbol

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You guys keep running away from this -- why so?

2Cor 5:1-3 bombshell still going untouched here. Curious-er and curious-er

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan
DHK

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...&postcount=152

I think your argument just blinked.


Don't know why you guys are letting this bombshell go without comment.

 

[TCGreek]

No text says "God sleeps I go that I may wake Him"

NO text says "concerning God who sleeps - the DEAD in Christ shall rise first".

NO text uses the term SLEEP and DEAD the way we see in John 11 and 1Thess 4 -- for God.

(Again I am just stating the obvious)



Agreed - REST in Isaiah 59 references DYING and BEING dead.

But in Rev 6 it speaks of the DEAD lumped under the altar as being told to rest after they complain. Clearly a symbol

in Christ,

Bob

Then those seen in Heaven RESTING are not sleeping.