Does the Soul or Spirit Carry Consciousness?

[DHK]

It would only be the spirit of Stephen that went into a dormant state - the Bible calls sleep for a spirit in the state of death.
in Christ,
Bob

Ye err not knowing the Scripture...
That is your definition of sleep; not what the Bible says, and not what any other says except for the SDA's.
"Sleep" is simply a synonym for physical death. This has been shown over and over again, and yet you fail to believe. Why?

1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
--Was the body weak or the soul?
--Was the body sickly or the soul?
--Was the body asleep or the soul?
In each case it is the body. The body slept. It was dead. Sleep is a synonym for death; physical death. It has nothing to do with the soul.

Lazarus slept. Jesus said plainly. Lazarus is dead. How can you misconstrue this any other way. Lazarus was physically dead. Jesus spoke of his body. He said so. Why do you deny his words?

Once you get this straightened out, you will see how the rest of your post collapses.

 

[Eric B]

Actually 1Cor 15 states clearly that the body raised is NOT the body that decayed an turned to dust!

35 But someone will say, ""How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?''
36 You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
37 and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
38 But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
40 There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.


42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I didn't know you believed that. I thought that the SDA's took it like others that "what is sown is what is what comes to life". And when it says "not the body to be, but the bare grain", it meant the state of being corruptible, rather than the raised state of being incorruptible. But still, it would be the same matter raised and changed. Also, the fact that Christ's risen body was the same one that was sown, and this is what is used as the example of what our resurrection will be.

 

[LeBuick]

I don't pretend to know the exact answer but I think Paul reasoned it here;

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

 

[Eliyahu]

Ye err not knowing the Scripture...
That is your definition of sleep; not what the Bible says, and not what any other says except for the SDA's.
"Sleep" is simply a synonym for physical death. This has been shown over and over again, and yet you fail to believe. Why?

1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
--Was the body weak or the soul?
--Was the body sickly or the soul?
--Was the body asleep or the soul?
In each case it is the body. The body slept. It was dead. Sleep is a synonym for death; physical death. It has nothing to do with the soul.

Lazarus slept. Jesus said plainly. Lazarus is dead. How can you misconstrue this any other way. Lazarus was physically dead. Jesus spoke of his body. He said so. Why do you deny his words?

Once you get this straightened out, you will see how the rest of your post collapses.

Dead Body doesn't sleep. Dead Body decays and stinks ( Jn 11:39). In the Bible the Soul represents a person many times. When Bible says someone sleeps, it means the Soul sleeps because the Soul which is the representative of that person is sleeping, after the body of the person dies.

Sleep is not synonym for Death. Here is the proof.

1 Thessalonians 5:6
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Were Paul and his brethen already dead? and were the dead Believers talking each other?

1 Thessalonians 5:7
For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

Are the drunken people all dead?


Here are the biggest problems with the Denial of Soul Sleep.

The people who deny the Sleep of Souls are mostly heretic pagans.

1) Roman Catholic
They desperately need to deny it, because they claim the prayer to the dead, prayer thru the dead woman Mary, communion of the dead souls etc.

2) Muslims say that the suicide bombers will have sex with the 72 virgins chained in the prison.

3) Ancestor Worship in Asia, ( China, Korea, Japan, etc)
They pray to their ancestors, offer the food on the aniversary of the death as memorial, etc.

So, the billions of pagan believers believe that the Souls are still active even after the death and the souls can do a lot of things after the death, Souls' capacity explodes a lot, almost to become, demi-God, little gods so that they may fly everywhere.


Sleep is not a synonym for the death.

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.


1 Thessalonians 5:6
Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

Were Paul and his fellow believers dead at that time? Was Paul speaking to the ghosts?

1 Thessalonians 5:7
For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.


Jesus didn't equate the Dead and Sleep:


Mark 5:39
And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. ( Alive =Sleep here)


You can find nowhere Sleep=Active Soul



Dear friends who deny the Sleep of Souls,

What do you believe the souls are doing after the death?

Psalm 115:17
The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.


Psalm 6:5
For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

all bible quotation is from: Bible gate way.

http://www.biblegateway.com/keyword...artnumber=226&startnumber=301&startnumber=326

 

[DHK]

Dear friends who deny the Sleep of Souls,

What do you believe the souls are doing after the death?

They are either suffering the torments of hell, or they are safe enjoying the blessings that Christ can give in heaven, well and fully consciously alive.

Words have meanings. Almost every word has more than one meaning. Pick up a dictionary or two for your own leisurely perusal. We all know that most Americans need more sleep (not death), according to the latest research. That is obvious. That definition does not give one to butcher Scripture.

It does not give one the right to take away the fact that sleep is an obvious synonym of death, as Jesus himself pointed out. If you are not able to accept the words of Jesus, then whose words will you accept? You are in a sad condition if you box each and every word in with one and only one definition.

 

[BobRyan]

I didn't know you believed that. I thought that the SDA's took it like others that "what is sown is what is what comes to life". And when it says "not the body to be, but the bare grain", it meant the state of being corruptible, rather than the raised state of being incorruptible. But still, it would be the same matter raised and changed. Also, the fact that Christ's risen body was the same one that was sown, and this is what is used as the example of what our resurrection will be.

In the dark ages the RCC used to burn the bodies of the saints as a way to "guarantee that God could not raise them up". In some cases burned and then ashes dumped into the river.

Question - do you think God needs to chase around each carbon atom in the river and all the oxygen and nitrogen etc released into the air when the saints were burned in order to assemble them back again. Are the atoms "personalized" in your view?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
--Was the body weak or the soul?
--Was the body sickly or the soul?
--Was the body asleep or the soul?
In each case it is the body.

Wrong. In each case it is the PERSON.

When the BODY sleeps (as I will do tonight) the PERSON is asleep - but also ALIVE.

But when the BODY dies-decays-turns to dust the PERSON is dead the spirit DORMANT and returned to God.

When the PERSON above was "SICK" for example they were ALIVE -- and as such they did have a BODY that was sick.

But just as I as a PERSON will SLEEP tonight -- so also my body will literally SLEEP. That is not me being dead -- it is me sleeping.

Stay with me on this one DHK.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

They are either suffering the torments of hell, or they are safe enjoying the blessings that Christ can give in heaven, well and fully consciously alive.

It is you that do not believe the Words of God as they are since so many times they say " Sleep"

You once told us that the souls after the death are praising God, but the Psalms say the dead can neither praise God nor give thanks to Him.
There is no verse or word that overturns or rescinds that statement in the Bible.

Are the souls receiving blessings 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year, for 2000 years?

Yes, they may be by sleeping in peace! What else are they doing for 2000 years?

Do they take no rest at all ? How many hours do they sleep? What are their normal itineraries? If you are so much convinced about their activities, please tell me about them !

I know they are blessed by taking rest, by sleeping in peace, until the Lord wake them up.

Denial of the Soul Sleep are prevalent belief among the pagan believers and it is an abomination to God.
Among 7 Billion population in the world, Roman Catholic and Pagan Ancestor worshippers definitely need to deny the Sleep of the Souls after the death so that they may pray to the dead, pray thru the dead woman Mary, pray to their ancestors, offer the foods to the tombs of their ancestors.

It is the absolute abomination to God.

Psalm 106
28 They joined themselves also unto Baalpeor, and ate the sacrifices of the dead. 29 Thus they provoked him to anger with their inventions: and the plague brake in upon them.

Denial of Souls Sleep is the basis for the pagan ancestor worship and pagan Roman Catholic prayers to the dead. Among 7 billions of the people most of them are either pagan believers or the atheists and they all deny the Soul Sleep as the Atheists insist that the souls are completely dead after the death.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't pretend to know the exact answer but I think Paul reasoned it here;

1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

Rock solid! The resurrection at the second coming being described in 1Cor 15 is when mortal man puts on immortality - the immortal-eternal heavenly body.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Andre]

If the text presents truth, and in comparison with other Scriptures does not contradict the rest of the Bible, then it needs to be believed. The problem is one of belief. Instead of accepting your interpretation, isolated from the rest of the Bible, which does not agree with this text, you choose to disbelieve the Scripture. The meaning has been given. It is in harmony with the rest of Scripture. Now it is up to you whether or not to accept it.

Where, in exactly which posts, have you defended your interpretation against competing interpretations? The problem is not my lack of belief. It is the expectation that we are to simply accept your interpretation without a supporting argument. I have presented an alternate intepretation and shown it to be entirely plausible.

 

[Andre]

Christ yielded his (human) spirit to God.
If Christ was at any time in history unconscious, then Christ (God) was dead. You have a problem houston.

This is obviously incorrect. I slept last night and was unconscious. I did not die. There simply is no basis to conclude that anyone, including Jesus, is dead just because they are unconscious.

 

[Andre]

Ye err not knowing the Scripture...
That is your definition of sleep; not what the Bible says, and not what any other says except for the SDA's.
"Sleep" is simply a synonym for physical death. This has been shown over and over again, and yet you fail to believe. Why?

1 Corinthians 11:30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
--Was the body weak or the soul?
--Was the body sickly or the soul?
--Was the body asleep or the soul?
In each case it is the body. The body slept. It was dead. Sleep is a synonym for death; physical death. It has nothing to do with the soul.

Lazarus slept. Jesus said plainly. Lazarus is dead. How can you misconstrue this any other way. Lazarus was physically dead. Jesus spoke of his body. He said so. Why do you deny his words?

Once you get this straightened out, you will see how the rest of your post collapses.

Which posts, exactly which posts show that "sleep" in the Scriptures denotes a state where a conscious spirit or soul is fully awake?

Also, please tell me exactly what words Jesus used to show either of the following:

1. Lazarus, any part of him whatsoever, was conscious between his death and his being raised.

2. The term "sleep" denotes a state where the spirit / soul is not conscious.

Please do not simply "claim a definition" - give us Scriptural evidence.

 

[DHK]

Which posts, exactly which posts show that "sleep" in the Scriptures denotes a state where a conscious spirit or soul is fully awake?

Let's use some common sense here:
When you sleep or become unconscious you are totally unaware of your surroundings just as the disciples were in the time of Christ.
Jesus said of them: "The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak." They slept; they could not watch and pray with him. Thus when the soldiers came to take Jesus they were not aware of it until they awoke to hear the clamor of the crowd.
On the Mount of Transfiguration the disciples were tired and fell asleep. Something awoke them. And when their eyes were opened they beheld Jesus in his glorified body, as well as Elijah and Moses. They were first unconscious of their surroundings not knowing what was going on around them.
Jesus warns us that His coming will be at a time when we know not--as a thief that comes in the night. He comes when we are sleeping, unconscious of our surroundings.

If Christ was "sleeping" unconscious of his surroundings at any time in history, prayers would not be heard, the earth would stop spinning, the whole universe would go into chaos; everything would be in frightful destruction. For it is God that holds all things together by the Word of His power. He sustains all things--all the time. He cannot sleep. It is impossible for God to be unconscious; it would be equivalent to God being dead. That theory is ridiculous and impossible. Christ actively and consciously committed his spirit to the Father. He knew at all times what He was doing. At no time was he never in control.
He said: I lay my life down.
I take it up again.
No man takes it from me.
He was always in full control; and at no time unconscious!

Also, please tell me exactly what words Jesus used to show either of the following:

1. Lazarus, any part of him whatsoever, was conscious between his death and his being raised.

John 11:13-14 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
--Jesus spoke of his body, not of his soul or spirit, as the disciples thought. The meaning is plain and cannot be taken any other way. Why would you want to deny the words of Jesus?

2. The term "sleep" denotes a state where the spirit / soul is not conscious.

Please do not simply "claim a definition" - give us Scriptural evidence.

This is your definition only. It is not from the Bible. It is not even from a dictionary. It is simply from your imagination, and from the SDA's.
I have given you good evidence from 1Cor.11:30 where only the body was sick, weakly and dead. I know of many that are sick and weakly in body, but yet rejoice in spirit. Their sickness in no way affects their spirit. If it does it is a spiritual problem, not a physical sickness. Understand the difference. In each case it is the body that is attacked, and that includes "sleep" or death--referring to the body alone.
The evidence is conclusive in the words of Christ as well. He raised the body of Lazarus. The spirit never died; never slept. There is no where in Scripture where it says that. Your argument is from silence.

 

[Andre]

I think that this discussion about Jesus's status may be a bit of rabbit trail. I am interested in Scriptural arguments about the status of "non-God in the flesh people" - people like you and I - after we die physically. Even if it is true that Christ was never "asleep", I am interested in what the Scriptures say about regular people.

John 11:13-14 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
--Jesus spoke of his body, not of his soul or spirit, as the disciples thought. The meaning is plain and cannot be taken any other way. Why would you want to deny the words of Jesus?

You are simply not arguing properly here - you are blatantly begging the very question at issue by assuming that when Lazarus is referred to as dead, Jesus means that his body is dead yet his soul / spirit is not. Where, exactly, in this text are we told that Jesus believes that the spirit of Lazarus is in a conscious state after his death?

That your argument does not work can be proven by the following parallel story based on verses 11-14:

After Fred had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Joe has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up." Fred' friends replied, "Fred, if Joe sleeps, he will get better." Fred had been speaking of his death, but his friends thought he meant natural sleep. So then Fred told them plainly, "Joe is dead, and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him".

Where, exactly, does this text justify a belief that Joe has a spirit that is in full flower of conscious experience. The text never says this, not once. You are free to bring this belief to the text, but that is reading into it. And that is not very convincing at all. If a secular person were reading this text, why would he think that Joe has a spirit that continues to live once he is dead? True, the secular person is forced to conclude that Fred claims to have the power to revive Joe from death - this is indeed a justified conclusion. But there simply is no reason to conclude from this text that a claim is being made about Joe having a conscious spirit in the time interval between his death and his resurrection by Fred.

 

[Andre]

The spirit never died; never slept. There is no where in Scripture where it says that. Your argument is from silence.

No one in this thread has provided even a single item of Scripture that shows that people's consciousness persists after death. Not a single item. All the texts that have been claimed to show this have suffered from one of the following problems:

1. They require that the reader already believe something about the nature of the human person or the meaning of words like "sleep".

2. They are only consistent with the claim that the dead are conscious - they do not rule out other interpretations in which the dead are not.

 

[DHK]

Was God dead, asleep, or lose consciousness?
Did he therefore lose control over the universe?

 

[Andre]

Was God dead, asleep, or lose consciousness?
Did he therefore lose control over the universe?

God the Father was never asleep. I am not sure about Jesus. But this is not the point of the OP. The OP is about the "human person". You are welcome to try the "if X is true about Jesus's spirit, it must be true about ours", you are welcome to go that route. But please provide a scriptural and / or logical argument to that effect (and, of course, please also show scripturally why we are to believe that Jesus was, in fact, in a conscious state).

I would put forward the following from Romans 10:9 to support the proposition that it was indeed the Father that raised Jesus from the dead:

That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If you can show clearly that Jesus was conscious after his death and if you can make the case that "what's true for Jesus' spirit must be true for ours" then you will have made some progress.

 

[Eliyahu]

God and His angels are the only ones who can be awake for 2000 years. CAn any human being praise God for 2000 years?

 

[DHK]

God and His angels are the only ones who can be awake for 2000 years. CAn any human being praise God for 2000 years?

We all can, if we're in the presence of the Lord.
I believe David has been doing it for the last 3,000 years,
and Moses for the last 6,000 years.

 

[webdog]

This is obviously incorrect. I slept last night and was unconscious. I did not die. There simply is no basis to conclude that anyone, including Jesus, is dead just because they are unconscious.

How do you dream if you are unconscious? Everyone dreams every night.