Does the Soul or Spirit Carry Consciousness?

[DHK]

Again - what did you do with the immortal eternal body of 2Cor 5?

Are you now agreeing with me that 2Cor 5 IS speaking of the resurrection???!!

If so - where have you been all these years when that topic has come up??

in Christ,

Bob

Certainly the resurrected body is being referred to.
But when Paul says:
To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord, there is no reference to the resurrected body. He is referring to an immediate departure from this earth. That is the context. Which would be better for him--to remain with the Corinthians or to depart and be with the Lord--in his spirit--very much alive. There is no mention of soul sleep. You would have to deliberately insert that in there where there is no reason to. You have as much reason to insert soul sleep in that context to as you do purgatory, so why do it? The context doesn't allow for either one.

 

[Eliyahu]

And which pronoun do you think the Holy Spirit should have prompted Paul to use? IT perhaps? sorry that doesn't make sense. I'll take the Holy Spirit over Bob, any day?

Sorry, I don't care about your question nor your excuse.

I am very much accustommed to your exegesis. You do not interpret the Bible as it is first.

My principle is to interpret the Bible by Word-to-Word principle first.

Then I try to figure out the deeper meaning beyond the words later.

Thereafter, again, I try to combine and compare both Word-to-Word interpretation and the various spiritual meanings of the words and the sentences.

You have to think about why the word " sleep" is attached to so many believers after death.

If we come to the Spirit and Holy Spirit, Spirit is neuter gender and Holy Spirit is masculine gender. You know that I know Greek.

You cannot excuse your exegesis by referring to that of Spirit/HS.

I said, there is a certain linkage between Corruptible Body and Incorruptible Body. However, they are totally different in nature.

 

[Eliyahu]

Certainly the resurrected body is being referred to.
But when Paul says:
To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord, there is no reference to the resurrected body. He is referring to an immediate departure from this earth. That is the context. Which would be better for him--to remain with the Corinthians or to depart and be with the Lord--in his spirit--very much alive. There is no mention of soul sleep. You would have to deliberately insert that in there where there is no reason to. You have as much reason to insert soul sleep in that context to as you do purgatory, so why do it? The context doesn't allow for either one.

DHK,

Bob is repeatedly asking the question about whether the new body, new clothes mentioned in 2 Cor 5 is the Immortal, incorruptible, eternal Body mentioned in 1 Cor 15 or not.

If you do not know the relationship between 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15, you are not very much grown up yet at least in this portion of truth.

 

[DHK]

I said, there is a certain linkage between Corruptible Body and Incorruptible Body. However, they are totally different in nature.

Study the nature of the resurrected body of Christ. There are many similarities and there are many differences. It isn't a totally different body. 2000 years after his death, burial and resurrection, and he still bears the nail prints in his hands. It is still the same body. Albeit a glorified body with different characteristics. Thus 1Cor.15:51 We (our bodies, in context) shall all be changed. The we refers to our bodies. The context is the resurrection. The resurrection always refers to the body and nothing more than the body. Only cults such as the J.W.'s believe in a "spirit" resurrection, which is no resurrection at all, but rather a denial of the resurrection. It seems to me that you are arguing along these lines which is quite unbelievable.

 

[TCGreek]

Was the body of Jesus Christ corrupted?
You cannot compare Body of Jesus with the Bodies of the resurrected Believers, and the corrupted bodies of the Believers.

1. The body of Christ is a glorified body and our present, lowly bodies, He will transformed to be like His glorious body.

"He will transform the body of our humble condition into the likeness of His glorious body, by the power that enables Him to subject everything to Himself" (Phil 3:21, emphasis mine).

2. That is why we must affirm the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ as an essential plank of the Christian message.

Moreover, even in case of Jesus Christ, do you expect He will carry the wounded body eternally even after the Great Judgment and the Entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven?

3. Bearing a scar as the Lamb slain for the sins of sinners in a glorified body must be mistaken for a wounded body (John 20).

 

[Eliyahu]

Study the nature of the resurrected body of Christ. There are many similarities and there are many differences. It isn't a totally different body. 2000 years after his death, burial and resurrection, and he still bears the nail prints in his hands. It is still the same body. Albeit a glorified body with different characteristics. Thus 1Cor.15:51 We (our bodies, in context) shall all be changed. The we refers to our bodies. The context is the resurrection. The resurrection always refers to the body and nothing more than the body. Only cults such as the J.W.'s believe in a "spirit" resurrection, which is no resurrection at all, but rather a denial of the resurrection. It seems to me that you are arguing along these lines which is quite unbelievable.

We shall be changed by putting on New Body- Celestial Body, Spiritual Body. Read 1 Cor 15 and stay with it. Don't change the Word " We" into "Bodies"

Bodies are not sleeping ! they are dead and decaying!

 

[Eliyahu]

1. The body of Christ is a glorified body and our present, lowly bodies, He will transformed to be like His glorious body.

"He will transform the body of our humble condition into the likeness of His glorious body, by the power that enables Him to subject everything to Himself" (Phil 3:21, emphasis mine).

Metaskematizow means remodel, transfigure, etc.
Read KJV here:
Phil 3:21
Who shall change our vile body that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body ( How will He transform our body? by putting on new bodies! as 1 Cor 15.

2. That is why we must affirm the bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ as an essential plank of the Christian message.

Do I deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus?
You are eager to condemn the believers as Heretics, aren't you?

3. Bearing a scar as the Lamb slain for the sins of sinners in a glorified body must be mistaken for a wounded body (John 20).

His body had the wounds and will still come again with the wounds. We will have the glorified body. Was the decayed body sleeping?

 

[Eliyahu]

DHK/TCGreek,

Do you believe this statement is correct?


And the bodies of OT saints are "sleeping" until their resurrection into it, Isa 26:19-21.


This is why I started the argument about the Body.


Are the dead bodies sleeping or decaying?

 

[Eliyahu]

TCGreek,

Do you think " Our corruptible bodies will be resurrected first, then it will be transformed later"

or " We will be resurrected with the Incorruptible bodies" ?

 

[DHK]

DHK,

Bob is repeatedly asking the question about whether the new body, new clothes mentioned in 2 Cor 5 is the Immortal, incorruptible, eternal Body mentioned in 1 Cor 15 or not.

If you do not know the relationship between 2 Cor 5 and 1 Cor 15, you are not very much grown up yet at least in this portion of truth.

Bob and I have debated 2Cor.5 ad infinitum. He knows exactly what I believe, and I know precisely what he believes on the subject. I believe that it is you that is confused. (Notice the respective dates that we both joined this board ).
But for your sake I will recap the teaching of 2Cor.5

2 Corinthians 5:1-8 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

We know that we have an earthly tabernacle, an earthly body, a temporary tent that houses an eternal, immortal spirit. After all, God did create us spirit beings just in the same way that he created the angels spirit beings. He gave us a temporary body, but not the angels.

If our earthly house dissolves we have (someday) a heavenly body built without hands. It doesn't say when we will receive that body. It won't be right away, unless the rapture happens right away.
In this body we groan. We desire our new body (vs.2). We all look forward to the resurrection.
Once clothed upon we (our spirits) will no longer be "naked" (more like disembodied)
"While we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord"
--This is a straightforward statement that denies any possiblility of soul sleep, and yet avoids speaking of the resurrection at the same time. It is making a clear statement. If we are home in the body (that is now), we are absent from the Lord (that is now). We know this, Paul says.
In this life we walk by faith and not by sight. The minute we see Jesus we no longer walk by faith--whether it be at the rapture or at death and our spirits enter heaven.
Thus the teaching:
To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (not an exact quote).
He was reassuring them that if he or they should die and exit their temporal body they (in their unclothed bodies) would go straight to heaven (in their "naked" spirits) and there await there resurrection bodies, for no man knew the time or even the season of the coming of the Lord.

 

[DHK]

DHK/TCGreek,
Are the dead bodies sleeping or decaying?

Both. There is no difference. The soul or spirit is not present with a dead corpse. Sleep is used only in reference to the body sleeping, not the soul or spirit (except in life as the body--when it is alive--requires sleep.)

 

[DHK]

Bodies are not sleeping ! they are dead and decaying!

There is no difference. That is how the word "sleeping" is used in the Bible as it pertains to a dead body, or death.

 

[TCGreek]

Metaskematizow means remodel, transfigure, etc.
Read KJV here:
Phil 3:21
Who shall change our vile body that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body ( How will He transform our body? by putting on new bodies! as 1 Cor 15.

1. From a lowly state, to a glorified state, which is in accord with 1 Cor 15.

Do I deny the bodily resurrection of Jesus?
You are eager to condemn the believers as Heretics, aren't you?

2. I was only declaring what must be; it wasn't meant to be an accusation. :thumbs:

His body had the wounds and will still come again with the wounds. We will have the glorified body. Was the decayed body sleeping?

3. Not wounds but scarsl; there's a difference.

 

[TCGreek]

There is no difference. That is how the word "sleeping" is used in the Bible as it pertains to a dead body, or death.

1. This too is my affirmation, for the Bible says nothing about the soul/spirit sleeping, therefore, it must be a reference to the body.

2. Why do we find it strange that the Bible would refer to the body in such terms?

 

[TCGreek]

Metaskematizow means remodel, transfigure, etc.
Read KJV here:
Phil 3:21
Who shall change our vile body that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body ( How will He transform our body? by putting on new bodies! as 1 Cor 15.

1. What is the point of the Greek metaschematizo, when the same word is used in 2 Cor 11:14, 15 in reference to the ministers of Satan and Satan himself?

2. Besides, in 1 Cor 15 we have yet another Greek word, allasso, describing the same event of transformation.

3. Are we to think of a difference in transformation because Paul uses two different Greek verbs? Not at all! Words only have meaning through context.

4. Rather we must ask, What is this change all about?

 

[DHK]

Again, you are changing the Bible.

Now, seriously how am I changing the Bible. The Bible says: We shall all be changed, and I never said otherwise (except once in sarcasm). The we (in the context of resurrection) always refers to the body. It does not (as you are assuming) refer to an entire person. Paul is speaking of only the physical body. OUR physical bodies will be changed. And the rest of the chapter goes on and speaks only of the physical body--earthly, terrestrial, celestial--souls NOT!, but rather bodies. That is the context--physical bodies.

Bible says : We will be changed.

The Bible says in its context that we (our bodies) will be changed.

DHK says : Bodies will be changed.

I agree with what the Bible says because one cannot take a Scripture out of context as you keep doing. What do you believe about Psalm 14:1? Does it teach:
There is no God!
But that is what it says, Eliyahu, especially if you ignore the context. We must define words according to context. We cannot ignore context.

Which is correct?
Of course you will say " DHK is correct over Bible "

DHK is only correct when he can demonstrate from the Bible, that his beliefs are the same as the Bible. If I can be proven wrong then I will change my belief. But I don't believe you can do that.

 

[Eliyahu]

3. Not wounds but scarsl; there's a difference.

Did Jesus have some scratches only? Did I say He was still bleeding?

20 And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the Lord. 21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. 24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.
26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

 

[Eliyahu]

Now, seriously how am I changing the Bible. The Bible says: We shall all be changed, and I never said otherwise (except once in sarcasm). The we (in the context of resurrection) always refers to the body. It does not (as you are assuming) refer to an entire person. Paul is speaking of only the physical body. OUR physical bodies will be changed. And the rest of the chapter goes on and speaks only of the physical body--earthly, terrestrial, celestial--souls NOT!, but rather bodies. That is the context--physical bodies.
The Bible says in its context that we (our bodies) will be changed.
I agree with what the Bible says because one cannot take a Scripture out of context as you keep doing. What do you believe about Psalm 14:1? Does it teach:
There is no God!
But that is what it says, Eliyahu, especially if you ignore the context. We must define words according to context. We cannot ignore context.
DHK is only correct when he can demonstrate from the Bible, that his beliefs are the same as the Bible. If I can be proven wrong then I will change my belief. But I don't believe you can do that.

The problem started because you didn't indicate it is your interpretation.

There is a huge difference between Interpretation and Bible itself.

For all the discussion, you need to transfer all the Bible verses as they are, then you can discuss with others about your opinion.

You often convert the word " Sleep" into " death" or " Dead". It is your theology, not the Words of God. Do I have to accept your theology over the Bible statements? No! Sir.

We shall be changed means We ( the persons) shall be changed. How? by putting on the new celestial bodies.

But you concluded that the word " WE" is Bodies. How can you be 100% sure of your own transformation of the words into another? Is it too difficult if you state the Bible as it says?

I will explain further on this in the next posts.

 

[BobRyan]

DHK speaking of 2Cor 5

Certainly the resurrected body is being referred to.
But when Paul says:
To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord, there is no reference to the resurrected body. He is referring to an immediate departure from this earth. That is the context. Which would be better for him--to remain with the Corinthians or to depart and be with the Lord--in his spirit--very much alive. .

Hmm so the "immortal eternal body" of 2Cor5 is the body we get at the resurrection - the same one we see in 1Cor 15 in your view?

Well -- we AGREE on something after all!

Now let's look closely at 2Cor 5 since we agree. you are saying that all references below to the NEW body immortal eternal "in the heavens" is a refernce to the bodily RESURRECTION and not something that happens to us AT DEATH!

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord


Therefore by your own agreement as we look at the THREE states in 2Cor 5 -- the "unclothed with NO body" is the state you consider to be the state of death BETWEEN being clothed in THIS "decaying tent" and the final end point of being clothed with our "eternal immortal bodies in the heavens".

After all your pulpit-pounding you are going to finally come around on this?!!

I say "well done!" and none-too-soon

in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

You are distorting the truth. The dead bodies are decaying.

Not at all, Apparently you have not been taught to discern between figurative and literal language. But look at Isa 26:19-21. "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust:" Isaiah tells his fellow Jews to enter into bed chambers until the indignatino be overpassed. Then "with my dead body, we shall AWAKE and sing. That is the whole imagery of Israel's kingdom of Messiah postponed -- they will be awakened at His coming, after the tribulation, and receive their inheritance.

So, do you read " they should rest yet" ? Where do you find "praying to God and worshipping Him" ? That's how you invent a Bible !

Look up the passages I gave you and let the Spirit speak. Rev 6:9 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" That's a prayer. Rev 7:9 " After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. That's praise! ... 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. " There's the kind of "rest" the angel was speaking about. ( should have known I would have to "spoon feed" this stuff to people who had been "spoon fed" garbage all their lives.

Souls of Martyrs cried only before they entered the Rest.

Yeah -- in HEAVEN, too! Are you ignoring that?

Lazarus fell asleep ( John 11)

John 11:13 is a perfect contradiction of your assertion -- 11 "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep." Here you can see that even Jesus Himself used the word "sleep" for death of the body!

You've been CONNED! And you know what's worse? You take pleasure in it! But 2Thes 2:11 says "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."

skypair