Does the Soul or Spirit Carry Consciousness?

[Eliyahu]

Now the argument is a little expanded. But we must remember what are the main issues.

1. My interpretation
Bodies are decaying after death.
God can reproduce a new body reflecting the previous body, even with one single genom or DNA, moreover each soul has all the Info on the genomes of the body. So, there will be no problem with reproducing a new body for each dead bodies.

1 Cor 15
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: 37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain

After we sow the seeds of wheat, the seeds decayed in the soil, then the new wheat grows. Do we eat the same wheat? NOPE!

When people died at WTC on September 11, some of the bodies were dissolved completely in the flame of the Jet Fuel. However, to God there will be no problem in reproducing the new bodies for them based on their genomes and DNA's. Some bodies may have decayed completely and have been washed away into the sea. God will have no problem in reproducing the same bodies for the unbelievers. The focus and key points are the souls and spirits of theirs, one for eternal life, the other for eternal punishment.

What I believe is that the souls will wear the new bodies which are celestial, spiritual, glorious like the body of Jesus at the time of Resurrection.

1 Cor 15
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.


52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
What I say is that we will be resurrected with the Incorruptible bodies and that is how “ we shall be changed”

This is how “ we shall put on the Incorruption”

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory

Does it say “ God will collect all the corruptible and re-assemble them and then transform them into the new bodies” ? Nope!

1 John 3
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Look at the snakes. They slough off (Cast off the skins) every year, they wear new skins but the old skins are gone. All the genomes of the old skins are transferred to the new skins without problem.

This is the transfer from the Corruptible Body to the Incorruptible Body.


2. Your interpretation may be:

The dead bodies are resurrected with the corruptible bodies first, then they are transformed into the eternal, immortal bodies.
The disabled, handicapped people will be resurrected with the handicaps first? Then will they be perfected later?

OT expressions may be found like that because they are not specific and in detail but the general descriptions.

But the NT descriptions are more specific. Remember the whole context of 1 Cor 15. and compare it with 2 Cor 5.

1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

Do you say the tabernacle is sleeping when it is dissolved?

3. Is the dead resurrected with Corruptible body? Or with in corruptible body? Read 1 Cor 15:52

However, whether you may excuse about 1 Cor 15:52 or not is not a big question on this issue.

a) Is the Bible focusing on the bodies of the dead? Or on the Souls and Spirits of theirs?
b) Do you think Bible used the word “ sleep” vainly to describe a situation or a status other than actual Sleep?
c) If you believe that the dead are resurrected with the Corruptible bodies again, then do you see the whole process of decaying and corruption of the body is a Sleep? I ask this because Sleep means Alive, and the Bodies are not awakened up by itself but by the work of God, and they are actually dead, not alive.
Jesus didn’t equate “ Dead” with “ Sleep” as in Luke 8:52
She is not dead but sleeps (What you say is she is dead and therefore sleeps)

4. We must remember that there are some variety of the resurrection among the people.

Jesus Christ didn’t experience the corruption of His body.
He has the glorious body.
But I believe Lazarus and Damsel who were raised from the dead died again, and their bodies were corrupted and wait for the resurrection.


Finally do you think " Intercession by prayer is impossible by the departed souls if you disbelieve Soul Sleep"?

This is how the heretics of prayer to the dead has clept in as they say that the dead can intercede for the people on earth, and they say they don't pray to the dead, but ask for the interceding prayers.

 

[skypair]

Those who almost die then come back -- are not "resurrected" they were never dead.

In John 11:13, Jesus acknowledges that Lazarus was D-E-A-D. DEAD, not asleep. Therein He acknowledges the BIBICAL use of a figurative term of "sleep" for "death," Mr Gullibility.

skypair

]

 

[DHK]

Does it say “ God will collect all the corruptible and re-assemble them and then transform them into the new bodies” ? Nope!

In fact it does. That is exactly what it does say.
What is the first law of Thermodynamics:
"That matter can neither be created nor destroyed"
So even from a scientific point of view this is not impossible.--Not impossible for God to find every single atom that a man was made of and assemble it to his original body. What is impossible with man is possible with God. It nowhere says that God is going to resurrect a new body. Why? Because that is a denial of the resurrection. That is to say it is no resurrection at all. The resurrection is, by definition, the resurrection of this body. It can be no other way, despite what happened at the WTC, and other such events. God is still able to resurrect those bodies. Have faith in him, not your rationalization.
It goes on to say that those bodies shall be changed into new bodies. It does not say that we shall be given new bodies out of nothing--a new creation. God is finished with this creation. The only new creation he will make is a new earth and a new heaven, and that will be after this earth is destroyed. Up until that time all that he created was done in six days. He is not going to create for you a new body. He is going to glorify the old body that you do have. Thus "we shall all be changed." Our old corruptible bodies will become incorrubtilbe bodies" The "will become." Specifically it says "they shall put on. They will be the same bodies but changed. How can you miss such a plain teaching?

 

[TCGreek]

b) Do you think Bible used the word “ sleep” vainly to describe a situation or a status other than actual Sleep?

1. Here's the problem: Because we have come up with our theories, we often try to tailor the Scriptures to fit our theories.

2. For example, the Bible says sleeping is death (John 11:12-14). What should we make of this word "sleep"? How much should we read into it?

3. So the problem intensifies when we encounter similar literary device as in the case of "to know" referring to sexual relation (Matt. 1:25).

a. What should we make of "to know"? Do we read back in our understanding of what it means "to know"?

b. Isn't that what we are doing with the expression "to fall asleep" as a reference to physical death?

4. Let's be consistent! The same way we want to say that God doesn't use a term in vain, sleep must mean sleep in our use of the word, then we should make the same argument for "to know."

5. When we try to read back into a text our views in such a manner we are guilty of two exegetical fallacies:

a. Anachronism--later ideas back into the historical setting of the text.

b. Analogy--thinking that when an analogy is used to illustrate, it must correspond a 100%.

 

[Eliyahu]

Not at all, Apparently you have not been taught to discern between figurative and literal language. But look at Isa 26:19-21. "Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust:" Isaiah tells his fellow Jews to enter into bed chambers until the indignatino be overpassed. Then "with my dead body, we shall AWAKE and sing. That is the whole imagery of Israel's kingdom of Messiah postponed -- they will be awakened at His coming, after the tribulation, and receive their inheritance.

1. Did I ever say that the dead man after resurrection will not sing?

2. You must know that the OT statements are often general about the Resurrection and therefore Saduccees didn't believe the Resurrection. In NT Bible explains how the dead bodies are resurrected, and explains about the dead Believers who sleep in Jesus Christ ( 1 The 4:14)

3. Isa 26 defends my belief. Does the Bible say " my souls was singing alone without body, but now we sing along with the bodies resurrected"? The souls were sleeping ! That's why you can never find what the souls are doing after the death in OT. As for NT I will explain further.

4. What were the souls doing if the dead can sing only after the Resurrection? Why can't you find any proof that the souls were active after the death? I already mentioned, before your participation in this thread and in the previous thread, that God can wake up the souls any time. He may work thru the angels. Another one who can wake up the souls of the dead may be sorcerors or familiar spirits as we read the case of Samuel and Saul in 1 Sam 28. Do you read " why hast thou disquieted me?" in 1 Sam 28:15?

Look up the passages I gave you and let the Spirit speak. Rev 6:9 "And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?" That's a prayer. Rev 7:9 " After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. That's praise! ... 15Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. " There's the kind of "rest" the angel was speaking about. ( should have known I would have to "spoon feed" this stuff to people who had been "spoon fed" garbage all their lives.

1. I can accept the Cry as their prayer for a moment. But do they cry or pray all the time since 2000 years ago?
Remember this they cried before they were given the White Robes, before they entered the Rest, when the 5th Seal was opened. It means that they were crying when they martyred and were taken up to the Lord in the beginning. Thereafter they rested. Do you claim they continue to cry in prayer for 2000 years? Please don't torture the Martyrs ! Let them rest.

2 As for Re 7. You revealed very much ignorance about the Revelation. This tells me you are denying the Soul Sleep without knowing much of the Revelation.

Re 7 : 9-17 was not the scene of what actually happened, but it was the preliminary overview Revelation for the future. Do you think they praised the Lord coming out of the Great Tribulation already? Many of them may have not been born on this earth yet, and they will experience the Tribulation by the Beast and Harlot in the future. Could John speak to them ? Their praises are not the praise by the souls, but by the actual people with the bodies. You may be able to claim that they are the raptured people, but even in that case, they are still with the actual bodies. If you read the chapter 7 carefully, they are coming out of the Tribulation and one can reasonably believe that they are saved from the Tribulation by the Lord Jesus Christ and His second coming, not by the Rapture.

Yeah -- in HEAVEN, too! Are you ignoring that?

Are they crying in the heaven for 2000 years? What is the daily schedule of the life in the Heaven?

John 11:13 is a perfect contradiction of your assertion -- 11 "These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep." Here you can see that even Jesus Himself used the word "sleep" for death of the body!

Why did the word " sleep" became the word for Death?

Can one still say that Lazarus is sleeping while his souls are singing and flying around the world?

You've been CONNED! And you know what's worse? You take pleasure in it! But 2Thes 2:11 says "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
skypair

It can be your own Litmus paper, sadly. But I must tell you this. False accusation came from the devil. You have to be very careful. I am not damned, unfortunately to you. I am very much blessed because of what Jesus had done for me at the Cross. If you believe you have a better theology, you must behave like that. Otherwise, you are proving that you are standing on the wrong grounds, on the sinking sands.

 

[Eliyahu]

In fact it does. That is exactly what it does say.
What is the first law of Thermodynamics:
"That matter can neither be created nor destroyed"
So even from a scientific point of view this is not impossible.--Not impossible for God to find every single atom that a man was made of and assemble it to his original body. What is impossible with man is possible with God. It nowhere says that God is going to resurrect a new body. Why? Because that is a denial of the resurrection. That is to say it is no resurrection at all. The resurrection is, by definition, the resurrection of this body. It can be no other way, despite what happened at the WTC, and other such events. God is still able to resurrect those bodies. Have faith in him, not your rationalization.
It goes on to say that those bodies shall be changed into new bodies. It does not say that we shall be given new bodies out of nothing--a new creation. God is finished with this creation. The only new creation he will make is a new earth and a new heaven, and that will be after this earth is destroyed. Up until that time all that he created was done in six days. He is not going to create for you a new body. He is going to glorify the old body that you do have. Thus "we shall all be changed." Our old corruptible bodies will become incorrubtilbe bodies" The "will become." Specifically it says "they shall put on. They will be the same bodies but changed. How can you miss such a plain teaching?

That's your theory and human logic, but read the Bible.

1 Cor 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

In a moment we shall be raised with the Incorruptible. We shall be changed because our souls shall wear the Incorruptible bodies.

1 Cor 15
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

According to your theology, the dead will be raised in corruptible body, in natural body, then they will be transformed, which is different from above statement.

However, this is not a big issue on this thread as I already mentioned the linkage between the Celestial and Terrestrial bodies.

The issue here is what are the souls doing after they departed the bodies?
Why can't you be bold enough to tell the list of their activities and the performance of their doing? What are the results of their activities by millions of them for 2000 years?

God created everything from nothing.
If you don't believe it, you have a big problem with the Creator.
Do you think God has a limited time schedule for Creation. He can do anything at any time. Even in teh future He can do anything for His purpose. He can create another body for the eternity from another dust too. Above verses tell you that the new body will be different from the earthly body of Adam's race, though we can imagine the linkage between the old body and the new body. I already illustrated the snakes' sloughing ( sluffing off) skins. The old skin of the snake will disappear. This is what 1 Cor 15 says, different from your saying.

 

[Eliyahu]

1. Here's the problem: Because we have come up with our theories, we often try to tailor the Scriptures to fit our theories.

2. For example, the Bible says sleeping is death (John 11:12-14). What should we make of this word "sleep"? How much should we read into it?

3. So the problem intensifies when we encounter similar literary device as in the case of "to know" referring to sexual relation (Matt. 1:25).

a. What should we make of "to know"? Do we read back in our understanding of what it means "to know"?

b. Isn't that what we are doing with the expression "to fall asleep" as a reference to physical death?

4. Let's be consistent! The same way we want to say that God doesn't use a term in vain, sleep must mean sleep in our use of the word, then we should make the same argument for "to know."

5. When we try to read back into a text our views in such a manner we are guilty of two exegetical fallacies:

a. Anachronism--later ideas back into the historical setting of the text.

b. Analogy--thinking that when an analogy is used to illustrate, it must correspond a 100%.

1. Even in case of know for sexual relationship, the word ginosko was not indifferent from knowing, because in that case the relationship meant the knowing the bodies of the spouses and their souls and the relationship starts from knowing each other in the normal relationship of the Christian spouses. So, the word is not used in vain there.

2. My argument for the Sleep is not groundless from other passages or from other angles.
As I mentioned, the souls are commanded to rest in Re 6:11 and Re 14:13.

In your theology, they would have heard that they should join the choir practics or prayer meetings.

 

[Eliyahu]

DHK/TCGreek.

Why don't you present what the souls are doing after they departed from the bodies?

It is coward thing that anyone claim that there will be a lot of activities by the souls, but she or he cannot present the proofs of any specific activities at all.

Why does the Bible keep silence about their activities?

Among the followings, what will the souls of the Believers do after they departed from the bodies?

Souls should or may do.

- Soccer game
- playing tennis
- building houses
- driving any cars or motors
- eating and drinking

- praise God
- pray to God
- give thanks to God
- interceding to God for the believers on the earth
- accepting the prayers from the saints on the earth, then say " No, I am a fellow servant, don't pray to me" Then the saints on the earth say " No, I am not praying to you, but asking you to pray for me, to intercede for me"
- passing the prayer request to God as an intercession.

- fly all over the world to see and enjoy the sightseeing.
- studying any archaeology
- holding a conference among the souls of the believers
- holding a prayer meeting
- singing to praise God.
- Sleeping 8 hours per day?
- Learning Bible more from God
- Studying the theology

Please check and let me know what they will do, along with any proofs.

Why does the Bible keep the silence about the activities of the souls if they are active?

Are they very much active in vain, without any good results?

 

[TCGreek]

1. Even in case of know for sexual relationship, the word ginosko was not indifferent from knowing, because in that case the relationship meant the knowing the bodies of the spouses and their souls and the relationship starts from knowing each other in the normal relationship of the Christian spouses. So, the word is not used in vain there.

1. Let's not get too technical about a simple word.

2. My argument for the Sleep is not groundless from other passages or from other angles.
As I mentioned, the souls are commanded to rest in Re 6:11 and Re 14:13.

In your theology, they would have heard that they should join the choir practics or prayer meetings.

2. Those Revelation texts do not say the soul is sleeping at death. Period

 

[DHK]

That's your theory and human logic, but read the Bible.

What I have given is straight from the Bible. You just don't accept what I say. But I will give you an opinion: IMO, Those who hold to soul sleep come dangerously close to the position of the J.W.'s in denying the resurrection completely. Wherever the resurrection is spoken of in the Bible it refers to the body only, if by definition only. It does not refer to "the person" including soul and/or spirit. If it does, then one has denied the resurrection, for one cannot resurrect something that has not died. Spirits never die. Even as you concede in the very word "sleep," if it sleeps, it is not dead. Then it is not raised from the dead. You have denied the resurrection. Soul sleep is a denial of the resurrection. It is heresy.

1 Cor 15
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed

In a moment we shall be raised with the Incorruptible. We shall be changed because our souls shall wear the Incorruptible bodies.

Why don't you accept the Scripture for what it is. We shall be changed! That means that corruptible body will be raised and shall be CHANGED into an incorruptible body.
NOTE: This not a theory, philosophy, etc. This is exactly what the Bible says. This is Bible teaching which you reject.
Our mortal bodies will BE CHANGED. They will PUT ON immortality.

1 Cor 15
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain

It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

According to your theology, the dead will be raised in corruptible body, in natural body, then they will be transformed, which is different from above statement.

What does the above say? That same body which was sown in corruption, sown in weakness, sown in dishonor, that same natural body, will be raised in power, in glory, in incorruption, a spiritual body! That same body will become an incorruptible body. That is exactly what those verses say. Please learn to read. You are at the point of denying the resurrection which is a serious heresy.

However, this is not a big issue on this thread as I already mentioned the linkage between the Celestial and Terrestrial bodies.

It is very important as it leads to a denial of the resurrection.

The issue here is what are the souls doing after they departed the bodies?
Why can't you be bold enough to tell the list of their activities and the performance of their doing? What are the results of their activities by millions of them for 2000 years?

#1 Where Scripture is silent we are silent. I note in another post you foolishly post a number of sports activities, etc. asking if disembodies spirits would be doing thus and thus.

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
--I think that would fall into the area of vain babblings.

1 Timothy 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

#2 We know as much as God has revealed to us.
We know what other spirit beings are doing, and they are very active. Here is where a study on angels and demons would be profitable. Are they not active. What do they do?

What does the Scripture say about those spirits which are in heaven right now?

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--They fall down and give praise to God--very active.

Revelation 5:9-14 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Read the passage through carefully. This can only refer to NT saints who have not been resurrected. It says that they have been redeemed.
They were redeemed by the blood.
They were redeemed out of every nation, tongue, people (this is more than just the Jews--it speaks of NT Gentile believers.) It is far to encompassing to be speaking of simply an OT dispensation.
God has made them kings and priests--names given to every believer once they are born again.
They shall reign in the MK. This is also true of believers in Christ.
These are the saints in Christ, the spirits of NT believers before the resurrection, that John saw. And this is what they were doing. If you believe the Bible you will accept these Scriptures for what the saints will be doing in Heaven. If you don't like it, perhaps you are not saved and are not looking forward to heaven. The Bible says to "examine yourself to see whether you are in the faith."

God created everything from nothing.
If you don't believe it, you have a big problem with the Creator.

I never said anything to the contrary.

Do you think God has a limited time schedule for Creation. He can do anything at any time. Even in teh future He can do anything for His purpose. He can create another body for the eternity from another dust too. Above verses tell you that the new body will be different from the earthly body of Adam's race, though we can imagine the linkage between the old body and the new body. I already illustrated the snakes' sloughing ( sluffing off) skins. The old skin of the snake will disappear. This is what 1 Cor 15 says, different from your saying.

God is the God of the impossible.
Here are somethings that God CANNOT do.
The Scriptures say that God cannot lie.
God cannot go against His nature.
God will not go against His Word.

So if you tell me that God is not limited, it depends what you mean by that statement. He has limited himself by the promises and statements that he has written in his Word.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

 

[BobRyan]

:Originally Posted by BobRyan
Those who almost die then come back -- are not "resurrected" they were never dead.

In John 11:13, Jesus acknowledges that Lazarus was D-E-A-D. DEAD, not asleep. Therein He acknowledges the BIBICAL use of a figurative term of "sleep" for "death," Mr Gullibility.

skypair

John 11 "LAZARUS SLEEPS"

John 11 "LAZARUS IS DEAD"

It is pretty easy to see that while the Disciples THOUGHT Lazarus was at home asleep - based on Christ's first statement "LAZARUS sleeps I go that I may wake HIM" the fact is that HE was DEAD because the body was DEAD and that the PERSON - was in a dormant state of SLEEP since the body was DEAD.

Just stating the obvious.

11 This He said, and after that He said to them, ""Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep.''
12 The disciples then said to Him, ""Lord, if he has fallen asleep, he will recover.''
13 Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that He was speaking of literal sleep.
14 So Jesus then said to them plainly, ""Lazarus is dead,

15 and I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, so that you may believe; but let us go to him.''
16 Therefore Thomas, who is called Didymus, said to his fellow disciples, ""Let us also go, so that we may die with Him.''
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days.



Again Just stating the obvious.

Seems to be my role here at times -- and I do it willingly!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Sorry to have to remind the group -- but Post 139 - I think we have late breaking news!

DHK speaking of 2Cor 5

Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
Certainly the resurrected body is being referred to.
But when Paul says:
To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord, there is no reference to the resurrected body. He is referring to an immediate departure from this earth. That is the context. Which would be better for him--to remain with the Corinthians or to depart and be with the Lord--in his spirit--very much alive. .

Hmm so the "immortal eternal body" of 2Cor5 is the body we get at the resurrection - the same one we see in 1Cor 15 in your view?

Well -- we AGREE on something after all!

Now let's look closely at 2Cor 5 since we agree. you are saying that all references below to the NEW body immortal eternal "in the heavens" is a refernce to the bodily RESURRECTION and not something that happens to us AT DEATH!

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord


Therefore by your own agreement as we look at the THREE states in 2Cor 5 -- the "unclothed with NO body" is the state you consider to be the state of death BETWEEN being clothed in THIS "decaying tent" and the final end point of being clothed with our "eternal immortal bodies in the heavens".

After all your pulpit-pounding you are going to finally come around on this?!!

I say "well done!" and none-too-soon

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Eliyahu]

What I have given is straight from the Bible. You just don't accept what I say. But I will give you an opinion: IMO, Those who hold to soul sleep come dangerously close to the position of the J.W.'s in denying the resurrection completely. Wherever the resurrection is spoken of in the Bible it refers to the body only, if by definition only. It does not refer to "the person" including soul and/or spirit. If it does, then one has denied the resurrection, for one cannot resurrect something that has not died. Spirits never die. Even as you concede in the very word "sleep," if it sleeps, it is not dead. Then it is not raised from the dead. You have denied the resurrection. Soul sleep is a denial of the resurrection. It is heresy.

Most of the Anabaptists were condemned by Calvin so much for the Soul Sleep, and many Waldensians believed it also. You claim Baptist forerunners were heretic.

Why don't you accept the Scripture for what it is. We shall be changed! That means that corruptible body will be raised and shall be CHANGED into an incorruptible body.

Why don't you accept the Scripture for what it is?

Bible states this : the dead shall be raised incorruptible ( 1 Cor 15:52)
DHK says " Corruptbile body will be raised.

Are those two the same? Compare the difference!

NOTE: This not a theory, philosophy, etc. This is exactly what the Bible says. This is Bible teaching which you reject.
Our mortal bodies will BE CHANGED. They will PUT ON immortality.

Do you think " Put on" is the same as the transformation of the existing one?

What does the above say? That same body which was sown in corruption, sown in weakness, sown in dishonor, that same natural body, will be raised in power, in glory, in incorruption, a spiritual body! That same body will become an incorruptible body. That is exactly what those verses say. Please learn to read. You are at the point of denying the resurrection which is a serious heresy.

You harvest the corruptible one first, then transform it later?

It is very important as it leads to a denial of the resurrection.

#1 Where Scripture is silent we are silent. I note in another post you foolishly post a number of sports activities, etc. asking if disembodies spirits would be doing thus and thus.

It was you that claimed that the sports activities should be included. Read the post No 95 where you claimed this.

Dear Friends,

Let's think about one thing awhile.

What do you imagine the souls are doing if not sleeping?

1. Souls would not do
- Soccer game
- playing tennis
- building houses
- driving any cars or motors
- eating and drinking

How do you know that? Are you a gnostic? If it be conceded that a soul is the same as a spirit, and it is the spirit that we are speaking of (for the sake of confusion), then think of this: What do angels do? Angels are very active. Angels are spirits, and yet an angel took up wrestling and wrestled with Jacob; of course he was the "angel of the Lord," but an angel nevertheless.

I said they would not do the sports. Then you accused me of Gnostic ! Check your own post No 95.

Tha't why I started to include the sports in your claim. I thought you even wanted to include Wrestling !

You are changing the words on this matter ! then accuse the others of false accusation

2 Timothy 2:16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.
--I think that would fall into the area of vain babblings.

1 Timothy 4:7 But refuse profane and old wives' fables, and exercise thyself rather unto godliness.

Titus 3:9 But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and vain.

#2 We know as much as God has revealed to us.
We know what other spirit beings are doing, and they are very active. Here is where a study on angels and demons would be profitable. Are they not active. What do they do?

I have the same opinion now, and I don't want to waste too much time on this same rhetoric of argument. God is the Judge between you guys and me. So, I would leave the judgment to Him.

What does the Scripture say about those spirits which are in heaven right now?

Revelation 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
--They fall down and give praise to God--very active.

Revelation 5:9-14 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing. And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever. And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Read the passage through carefully. This can only refer to NT saints who have not been resurrected. It says that they have been redeemed.
They were redeemed by the blood.
They were redeemed out of every nation, tongue, people (this is more than just the Jews--it speaks of NT Gentile believers.) It is far to encompassing to be speaking of simply an OT dispensation.
God has made them kings and priests--names given to every believer once they are born again.
They shall reign in the MK. This is also true of believers in Christ.
These are the saints in Christ, the spirits of NT believers before the resurrection, that John saw. And this is what they were doing. If you believe the Bible you will accept these Scriptures for what the saints will be doing in Heaven. If you don't like it, perhaps you are not saved and are not looking forward to heaven. The Bible says to "examine yourself to see whether you are in the faith."

Thanks for your concern about my salvation. Your litmus paper for the testing Salvation is very much fragile. Do you judge the people as unsaved if they have the eschatology different from yours? I do not doubt about your Salvation, but I must tell you this. If you believe that you have the better faith than other believers, then please behave better than they do.

Now, as for Re 4:11, do you know how the 24 elders were there? Nobody knows exactly how they were there, but we can believe that they represent the Believers. Throughout the Revelation, except those 24 elders no other souls of the believers are shown actually until the Rapture and Resurrection in Re 14:1-. Those 24 elders are shown in Re 11:16 as well. 24 elders were worshipping God. I didn't rule out the exceptional activity of the souls according to the command of God. They could be awakened any time by God. So they might have been awakened to introduce many things to John at a specific time, or they may be continuously abiding by the Lord as the representatives of the Believers.

As for Re 5:9-14, are they living creatures or the souls of the believers?

Read it carefully:

1. Every creature in the heaven, on the earth, under the earth, in the sea are the souls or the actual creatures with the bodies?

2. How are you sure that the tens of thousands of ten thousands are the souls of the embodied believers instead of angels?
verse 9-10 was sung by the 24 elders, but the verse 12 is sung by the elders and many angels. Then verse 13 is praised by the living creatures on the earth, sea, under the earth. Do the living creatures mean the souls of the dead Believers?
You are quite confused between and among the actual happenings, pre-liminary overview, the speech by the souls, the preview of the integrated actual happenings, the praises and songs by the angels.

Human souls are not praising in Re 5 except 24 elders thru Re 13 until the raptured souls are praising in Re 14:1-

I never said anything to the contrary.

God is the God of the impossible.
Here are somethings that God CANNOT do.
The Scriptures say that God cannot lie.
God cannot go against His nature.
God will not go against His Word.

So if you tell me that God is not limited, it depends what you mean by that statement. He has limited himself by the promises and statements that he has written in his Word.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

As if I didn't believe the Power of God.

 

[BobRyan]

What I have given is straight from the Bible. You just don't accept what I say. But I will give you an opinion: IMO, Those who hold to soul sleep come dangerously close to the position of the J.W.'s in denying the resurrection completely. Wherever the resurrection is spoken of in the Bible it refers to the body only, if by definition only. It does not refer to "the person" including soul and/or spirit.

Certainly it is true that the body is resurrected but Paul argues in Phil 3 that HE the PERSON seeks to ATTAIN "to the resurrection of the DEAD".

10 [b]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings[/b], being conformed to His death;
11 [b]in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.[/B]
12 Not that I have [b]already obtained[/b] it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of[/b] by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, [b]I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet[/b]; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I [b]press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Do you think he is mistaken?

But even MORE striking than that is the fact that you see the dormant-state in death as somehow deflating the doctrine on resurrection when in fact in Matt 22 Christ argues that BECAUSE of the dormant state "God is NOT the God of the DEAD" and therefore there MUST be a literal resurrection!

Christ argues the exact opposite of your point!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Certainly it is true that the body is resurrected but Paul argues in Phil 3 that HE the PERSON seeks to ATTAIN "to the resurrection of the DEAD".

10 [b]that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings[/b], being conformed to His death;
11 [b]in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.[/b]
12 Not that I have [b]already obtained[/b] it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of[/b] by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, [b]I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet[/b]; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I [b]press on toward the goal for the prizeof the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Do you think he is mistaken?

No Bob, you are mistaken.
The key verse in the passage is verse 10, the first part reads:
Philippians 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection,
Paul's great desire and goal was to know the power of his resurrection for as long as we was on this earth serving the Lord, or until the Lord would come again (the Resurrection) as it states in verse 11. Service requires power. It is that power that Paul strived for in his life.

But even MORE striking than that is the fact that you see the dormant-state in death as somehow deflating the doctrine on resurrection when in fact in Matt 22 Christ argues that BECAUSE of the dormant state "God is NOT the God of the DEAD" and therefore there MUST be a literal resurrection!
That is what he was striving for--the power of Christ (His resurrection) the fellowship of his suffering). Those were his goals. Verse ten is the key verse of the passage.

Paul was never satisfied with the past, past accomplishments. He didn't live in a vacuum. He pressed on to greater things. He looked forward. He wouldn't stop. And he would keep on going until Christ came (the resurrection) or until the Lord took him home (death). During all that time of service he would serve with the power of the resurrection upon his life.

Christ argues the exact opposite of your point!

No he argues for it. Try and understand the passge.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 22

31 ""But regarding the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God:
32 " I AM THE GOD OF ABRAHAM, AND THE GOD OF ISAAC, AND THE GOD OF JACOB'?
[/b]
Here He is not arguing that they “need to finally accept” this statement in Exodus 3:6. They already accept it. He is simply pointing out truth in THEIR OWN fully accepted set of beliefs. In this case it is a statement that God makes to Moses in the land of Midian long After Abraham, Isaac and Jacob have died - but BEFORE they are resurrected - Exodus 3:6.

This point is not debated or challenged by the Sadducees – they already fully accept it – and they don’t need to rely on accepting the authority of Christ to get them to accept the OT. He is working with what they already fully accept.

Matt 22
32 He is not the God of the dead but of the living.''
[/b]
Here again – Christ is not asking for this hostile group to “trust Him and believe Him”. Rather He knows they Already think of the dead in this way. They Already consider that God is NOT the God of the dead.

Psalms 6
4Return, O LORD, rescue my soul;
Save me because of Your lovingkindness.
5For there is no mention of You in death;
In Sheol who will give You thanks?

Isaiah 38
Lo, for my own welfare I had great bitterness;
It is You who has kept my soul from the pit of nothingness,
For You have cast all my sins behind Your back.
18"For Sheol cannot thank You,
Death cannot praise You;
Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness.
19"It is the living who give thanks to You, as I do today;
A father tells his sons about Your faithfulness.

But the Sadducees go even farther – they argue ALSO that “there is no resurrection and no spirit” (Acts 23:8).

So here is the SECOND point of Christ’s case – a point that they fully accept and in fact that they would “insist” upon. He points out that God is NOT the God of dead people – and YET God stated to Moses – that He was the God of Abraham.

In their own argument used against Christ - The very HEART of their own argument in this chapter was that NO relationships – NO life beyond this one is possible since it would be too complicated to work out the various complexities carried forward from THIS life. God is indeed “Not the God of the dead” in their view – the dead have “no relationships” not with married spouses and not with God.

The obvious problem “To be solved” is that Abraham is dead when God spoke to Moses saying “I AM the God of Abraham” and as already “agreed” God “is NOT the God of the dead”!!.

Contrast that to the dancing squirming and wriggling seen on modern religious debate threads in the case of every obvious Bible point raised showing the dormant state of man in death. clearly the Sadducees would (like those on this thread) only admit to the very LEAST point necessary to still hold face in the debate. And so - the PROOF of the resurrection is obvious!

 

[BobRyan]

Conclusion – Iron Clad Case Made!![/b]

At this point Christ’s argument for the iron clad case of the Resurrection ENDS!!! “How unexpected”! say many Christians today. “How“ incomplete”! they argue.

You see – many Christians today do not see what the Sadducees AND the Pharisees saw in this devastating debate with the Sadducees that PROVED beyond all doubt that the resurrection is the ONLY possible solution to the problem Christ has identified. For modern Christians there is “another solution” and this is “Abraham has an immortal soul that IS worshipping God while dead” – in their view God IS the God of Abraham – HE IS the God of those who have died –For though the body is dead – Abraham THE PERSON is fully alive in heaven and God IS the God of Abraham – at the time God makes this statement to Moses. NO resurrection NEEDED – in the view of many of today’s Christians the problem is entirely ”solvable” without the resurrection.

Notice the language of Rev 20 where we see this confirmed “The souls came to life” and this is called “the FIRST resurrection”. Only in resurrection is this “coming to life” and having a restored relationship with God achieved.

Rev 20
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.[/quote]

Notice this great end-time and focus of the entire book – the entire NT church when “Souls come to life” John calls it – the “First Resurrection”
Notice that “before “coming to life” they are “counted as the dead” such that “the REST of the dead did not Come to Life until the 1000 years were finished”
Notice that the “souls came to life” (and we had the FIRST resurrection) and the “rest of the dead comes to life” after the 1000 years (hence the 2nd resurrection)

Now back to Matt 22

However to the Sadducees and Pharisees the point was abundantly clear, b]Christ (the ultimate debater) presents them with a dilemma whose only solution is "the Resurrection". He leaves them with NO escape since by their OWN reasoning God is NOT the God of the Dead. God was claiming to be the God of “Abraham” the “person” not just “Abraham the dead body” and God is NOT the God of “Dead Persons”. Once Abraham (the “person” not merely Abraham “the body) died – God was NOT the God of Abraham (the person) any longer if there is NO resurrection. Only by virtue of the fact of a future resurrection could these two statements be true at the SAME time.

They already accepted that God called Abraham the father of many nations while as yet he had no children. They accepted that God counted future events as though they were already a fact. So now Christ argues the SAME future view for the resurrection – showing that BECAUSE of the resurrection (and ONLY because of that) God could still claim to be the God of Abraham EVEN when speaking to Moses – long after Abraham died. Christ COMBINES the two key points that they already agree to – and makes the devastating debate point FOR the resurrection. (Which is the nature of an effective debate point). Christ’s argument was devastating to them. Though they would love “not to see the point” they could not pretend not to get it.

And indeed Christ told them at the start that He would show them a problem for which the future resurrection that He taught was the ONLY solution.

But "both" parts of his premise must be true to conclude that the "only solution" is the resurrection. Part-A that God is NOT the God of the Dead and Part-B that God DID say He was the God of Abraham when speaking to Moses long AFTER Abraham died.

 

[DHK]

Most of the Anabaptists were condemned by Calvin so much for the Soul Sleep,

They were not condemned for soul sleep. I have no evidence that they believed that. They were condemned because of their beliefs on baptism.

Why don't you accept the Scripture for what it is?

That is my question to you.

Bible states this : the dead shall be raised incorruptible ( 1 Cor 15:52)

You insert your own definition of "death" disregarding what the Bible says about death. No wonder you are confused.
Please define death.
Now define death, according to the Bible, since the Bible didn't have clinical definitions. If you cannot use Biblical definitions you will be forever confused.
Now define sleep. How is the word "sleep" used in the Bible? I don't believe that you have looked at this objectively yet, but have only inserted your own presuppositions.

DHK says " Corruptbile body will be raised.

That is what the Bible says. In fact that is the definition of a "resurrection"--that the body will be raised. If it isn't you don't have a resurrection. You are, in fact, creating some new doctrine.

Are those two the same? Compare the difference!

Like I said, you are confused because you have defined Biblical terms with your own definitions and therefore the statements don't make sense to you.
A corruptible body will be raised incorruptible. We (our bodies) shall all be changed. They wil be changed from corruptible bodies into incorruptible bodies--in a moment in the twinkling of an eye; at the last trump. We shall be changed. This mortal body will be changed and shall put on immortality. It is not a resurrection unless you start off with the original body. That is what a resurrection is.

Do you think " Put on" is the same as the transformation of the existing one?

Yes, it refers to the same body; just as it referred to the body of Jesus. The decaying body of Jesus was glorified when it rose again. His mortal (human body that came out of the womb of Mary) put on immortality when it was glorified. It still bears the nail prints in his hands.

You harvest the corruptible one first, then transform it later?

God does the harvesting and God does the transforming, and as it says in 1Cor.15, it is all done in a moment, a twinkling of an eye. Do you know how fast that is?

It was you that claimed that the sports activities should be included. Read the post No 95 where you claimed this.

Sorry, I may have responded to in sarcasm. But I never brought that subject up originally. It was either you or someone else. Look at the post again. You will see me quoting someone else. Sports didn't enter this discussion through me.

I said they would not do the sports. Then you accused me of Gnostic ! Check your own post No 95.

Thanks for your concern about my salvation. Your litmus paper for the testing Salvation is very much fragile. Do you judge the people as unsaved if they have the eschatology different from yours? I do not doubt about your Salvation, but I must tell you this. If you believe that you have the better faith than other believers, then please behave better than they do.

I have a question about anyone who takes a position that begins to doubt the Resurrection. It has nothing to do with eschatology.

Now, as for Re 4:11, do you know how the 24 elders were there? Nobody knows exactly how they were there, but we can believe that they represent the Believers. Throughout the Revelation, except those 24 elders no other souls of the believers are shown actually until the Rapture and Resurrection in Re 14:1-. Those 24 elders are shown in Re 11:16 as well. 24 elders were worshipping God. I didn't rule out the exceptional activity of the souls according to the command of God. They could be awakened any time by God. So they might have been awakened to introduce many things to John at a specific time, or they may be continuously abiding by the Lord as the representatives of the Believers.

The point of this passage is that there are spirit beings in heaven that are alive and praising God.

As for Re 5:9-14, are they living creatures or the souls of the believers?

Read it carefully:

1. Every creature in the heaven, on the earth, under the earth, in the sea are the souls or the actual creatures with the bodies?

2. How are you sure that the tens of thousands of ten thousands are the souls of the embodied believers instead of angels?
verse 9-10 was sung by the 24 elders, but the verse 12 is sung by the elders and many angels. Then verse 13 is praised by the living creatures on the earth, sea, under the earth. Do the living creatures mean the souls of the dead Believers?
You are quite confused between and among the actual happenings, pre-liminary overview, the speech by the souls, the preview of the integrated actual happenings, the praises and songs by the angels.

Human souls are not praising in Re 5 except 24 elders thru Re 13 until the raptured souls are praising in Re 14:1-

I gave you all the evidence.
They were redeemed.
Redeemed by the blood.
Redeemed out of every nation, tongue, people, etc.
Given a new name.
Made kings and priests,
Will rule in the MK

There is absolute evidence that these are NT spirits before the resurrection takes place. The Tribulation doesn't even take place until chapter 6. You have to do some mental gymnastics to come to any other conclusion. The description fits only NT saints.

 

[BobRyan]

DHK

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1106664&postcount=152

I think your argument just blinked.

 

[TCGreek]

John 11 "LAZARUS SLEEPS"

John 11 "LAZARUS IS DEAD"

It is pretty easy to see that while the Disciples THOUGHT Lazarus was at home asleep - based on Christ's first statement "LAZARUS sleeps I go that I may wake HIM" the fact is that HE was DEAD because the body was DEAD and that the PERSON - was in a dormant state of SLEEP since the body was DEAD.

1. When we read John's narrative, the disciples didn't understand a lot of things, until after the resurrection. When Jesus referred to His body as a temple, they didn't get it (John 2).

2. If Jesus had simply said DEAD, they would have gotten it, but Lazarus' death was to result in the glory of God and the Son.

3. Again, the Bible doesn't say that death means a "dormant state of sleep." The Bible says death is the spirit's separation from the body (James 2:26). That is what I see.