Does the Soul or Spirit Carry Consciousness?

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If we must die, and our life be hid in Christ in God, would it not be wonderful if the Soul or Spirit Carried Consciousness?

 

[BobRyan]

Then those seen in Heaven RESTING are not sleeping.

Wrong path TCG.

Right path -

"Then those in Rev 6 are symbols of the DEAD in Christ and not literally a bunch of spirits trapped under the altar thinking only of vengence".

 

[BobRyan]

2 Cor 5:1-4 --- is it that SAME body as 1Cor 15:50-end?

DHK says YES (I agree with him)

Skypair says NO (and is still trying to get the details sorted out).

But all seem to agree that "body sharing" would be "a bad idea".

So anyone else brave enough to weigh in?

Body sharing? (TWO eternal heavenly bodies one from 1Cor 15 and ANOTHER ONE in 2Cor 5??)

Or SLEEP in the UNCLOTHED "undesired statd" of 2Cor 5 with the 2Cor5 reference AND the 1Cor15 reference to the heavenly, immortal body BOTH being a reference to the Resurrection?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

And you are left with "body sharing" with two immortal eternal bodies. Might want to explain your wait out of that when you get a minute.

"Body sharing?" What are you talking about?! Are you calling it body sharing" that I put to death my flesh and was revived in that flesh by the Spirit??

One of the signs of a cult is they pick and choose their scriptures without giving due diligence to what surrounds them - CONTEXT. Ex: When Paul says "
So also is the resurrection of the dead..." he's talking about the resurrection of the OT Israel into the MK.

IOW, prior to that, he was speaking of how we are resurrected in Christ by being "born again" and having our bodies changed by the Spirit indwelling to new life. And God, indeed, does give us a new body as it pleases Him. 15:34-40 is telling US the "awake" (be "born again"). "But some man will say how are we raised up and into what body? ... Fool! that which is you sow is not quickened unless you die [put your flesh to death]. ... But God giveth it a body as it pleases Him. .... All flesh is not the same... So also is the resurrection of the dead."

Paul first spoke of the resurrection of the living. Then of the resurrection of the dead. Paul was on that unque "cut line" between OT and NT so he could speak of NT resurrection and OT resurrection in this distinctive way.


In 1Cor 15 Paul says "IT IS HEAVENLY". Your post is then given by way of direct contradiction to Paul in 1Cor 15.

Now do some real homework for a change -- not just looking for what YOU want to see but reading the whole of the discourse and seeing if you see what I see.

skypair

 

[skypair]

You guys keep running away from this -- why so?

I didn't run away from it --- you merely ignored it. I said you were talking about the difference between "terrestrial glory" in 1Cor 15 and "celestial glory" in 2Cor 5. Either you ignored it or, more likely, you don''t understand the difference.

Go back to my earlier post and come back with your response.

skypair

 

[skypair]

Wrong path TCG.

Right path -

"Then those in Rev 6 are symbols of the DEAD in Christ and not literally a bunch of spirits trapped under the altar thinking only of vengence".

Where's your response to my rebuttal that they are real souls with "white robes" and that John bowed down to one of them proving that they continue to serve in heaven?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Body sharing? (TWO eternal heavenly bodies one from 1Cor 15 and ANOTHER ONE in 2Cor 5??)

Or SLEEP in the UNCLOTHED "undesired statd" of 2Cor 5 with the 2Cor5 reference AND the 1Cor15 reference to the heavenly, immortal body BOTH being a reference to the Resurrection?

Here's the deal: Do you believe in the rapture of the church? Even if you don't, you should. The former body of this earth that Paul says is his earthly house is already resurrected in Christ as in the image of baptism. But it is still corruptible flesh that must be 1) unclothed by death or 2) changed at the rapture (1Cor 15:51).

And yes --- there is another body that we ALL must change to (15:51). It is a body capable of the heavenlies where there is no oxygen. Even the MK believers will have to be raptured (Rev 20:11 - "from Whose face the earth and the heavens fled away." That view is taken from the perspective on one raptured with Christ out of the earth that is about to be remade. NEXT come the unraptured, dead lost to the GWT.

Bob, thank you for at least admitting your ignorance on this. Even if you do it a bit haughtily, you realize that your religion doesn't have all the answers and, as such, is not likely totally right and the only ones who hear from God and the only ones going to heaven. Those are the first admissions necessary to withdraw from a cult and I think we are making progress.

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

Here's the deal: Do you believe in the rapture of the church?

Yes - as Matt 24 says "AFTER the tribulation of those days...he will gather his elect".

Paul shows that same thing in 1Thess 4 where "The DEAD in Christ rise first".

Christ tells the church to look at that ONE event "IF I go away I WILL come again and RECEIVE you unto myself" John 14.

Even if you don't, you should. The former body of this earth that Paul says is his earthly house is already resurrected in Christ as in the image of baptism. But it is still corruptible flesh that must be 1) unclothed by death or 2) changed at the rapture (1Cor 15:51).

What?

We AGREE on something???!

You too are going to define the unclothed stated in 2Cor 5 as the state of being dead while waiting for the resurrection??

First DHK and now you?

What great progress!!

Next thing you know TCG will be joining in !:thumbs:

Bob, thank you for at least admitting your ignorance on this. Even if you do it a bit haughtily, you realize that your religion doesn't have all the answers

Are you referring to my ignorance of what your position actually is?

If not - what are you referring to??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Where's your response to my rebuttal that they are real souls with "white robes" and that John bowed down to one of them proving that they continue to serve in heaven?

skypair

I am sorry - I missed the part where you actually quoted scripture saying that John was bowing down to one who is dead -- Please clarify.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I didn't run away from it --- you merely ignored it. I said you were talking about the difference between "terrestrial glory" in 1Cor 15 and "celestial glory" in 2Cor 5. Either you ignored it or, more likely, you don''t understand the difference.

Go back to my earlier post and come back with your response.

skypair

I already corrected your Post 172... with my post 174.

The correction stands.

Though you have added to your confused position recently by trying to say that the new body "the HEAVENLY ONE" described in 1Cor 15 is our "born-again" condition in THIS life.

(As impossible as that is to defend from the context of 1Cor 15)

You further confound your own spin by then adding that bit about "no oxygen" AS IF oxygen was ever mentioned in the BIBLE!!!

But let's drop pursuing these freshman mistakes of yours for a few minutes and go to the big milestone on this thread where it appears that you DHK me and Eliyahu actually have a possibility of agreement (2cor 5 the UNCLOTHED state). Next post.

(TCG is being strangly quite on this one)

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Since SKYPAIR and DHK are having somewhat of an epiphany with 2Cor 5 all agreeing that the UNCLOTHED UNDESIRED state in 2Cor 5 is the state of DEATh for the believer when THIS earthly tent is ended and the saints WAIT for their resurrrected body.

Let't take a few minutes with 2Cor 5 to SEE the full implication of accepting this Bible truth regarding the unclothed UNDESIRED stated of "the DEAD in Christ" while they have "FALLEN ASLEEP" as 1thess 4 having NO BODY at all!

I have already started that line of reasoning post 152
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1106664&postcount=152

Where I ask that we look at the FULL implications of the UNDESIRED state -- the one with NO body (sleeping or otherwise) aftger the DECAYING tent is long since gone "dust to dust" and the saints are in that dormant UNDESIRED state WAITING for their new immortal eternal bodies given at the 1Cor 15 point of resurrection.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

• Paul argues that EVEN while ALIVE in this decaying tent we GROAN longing for our resurrected form NOT wanting to be in that UNCLOTHED dead state between.
• Paul describes that BETWEEN state as “NAKED” and as UNDESIRED”
• The new ETERNAL body is described as our ultimate HOME, in HEAVEN – having that which is FROM God.

4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord

• Paul argues the same point AGAIN – that while ALIVE in this decaying tent we GROAN longing for our resurrected form NOT wanting to be in that UNCLOTHED dead state between.
• Paul describes that BETWEEN state as “NAKED” and as UNDESIRED” - no interest in being in that state at all!

7 for we walk by faith, not by sight
8 we are of good courage, I say, and [b]prefer rather to be absent[/b] from the bodyand to be at home with the Lord.


Paul starts with the desired goal in vs one being at HOME in the new HOUSE that is FROM GOD Himself.
The middle state he defines as the UNDESIRED stated so much so that we GROAN wishing to avoid it.
He points us to the END state and the only DESIRED state EVEN in this life!!

TCGreek has been dead silent on this point for page after page after page. I have to think "he saw this coming". If so then I have ask TCG if he was really "seriously" supposing I was not going to go here.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

• Paul argues that EVEN while ALIVE in this decaying tent we GROAN longing for our resurrected form NOT wanting to be in that UNCLOTHED dead state between.
• Paul describes that BETWEEN state as “NAKED” and as UNDESIRED”
• The new ETERNAL body is described as our ultimate HOME, in HEAVEN – having that which is FROM God.

4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.
5 Now He who prepared us for this very purpose is God, who gave to us the Spirit as a pledge.
6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord

• Paul argues the same point AGAIN – that while ALIVE in this decaying tent we GROAN longing for our resurrected form NOT wanting to be in that UNCLOTHED dead state between.
• Paul describes that BETWEEN state as “NAKED” and as UNDESIRED” - no interest in being in that state at all!

7 for we walk by faith, not by sight
8 we are of good courage, I say, and [b]prefer rather to be absent[/b] from the bodyand to be at home with the Lord.


Paul starts with the desired goal in vs one being at HOME in the new HOUSE that is FROM GOD Himself.
The middle state he defines as the UNDESIRED stated so much so that we GROAN wishing to avoid it.
He points us to the END state and the only DESIRED state EVEN in this life!!

TCGreek has been dead silent on this point for page after page after page. I have to think "he saw this coming". If so then I have ask TCG if he was really "seriously" supposing I was not going to go here.

in Christ,

Bob

2 Cor 5:1-5 goes with 1 Cor 15:35ff--the heavenly body as opposed to the earthly. This is from a simple, straightforward reading.

 

[skypair]

I am sorry - I missed the part where you actually quoted scripture saying that John was bowing down to one who is dead -- Please clarify.

Rev 19:10 (Also 22:8-9 though I suspect that one is an OT saint).

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

Please give the quote from Rev 19 (actual words I would think) that show John bowing to an OT saint OR to the dead or ... whatever you were claiming.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

2 Cor 5:1-5 goes with 1 Cor 15:35ff--the heavenly body as opposed to the earthly. This is from a simple, straightforward reading.

Well isn't this nice - we all seem to agree that 2Cor 5 is NOT talking about a body given to us at the moment we die- but rather that the resurrection of the saints.

That means that the "naked" state that is the "undesired state" is the condition of death between THIS life and the resurrection.

I am very surprised that everyone is on board with this!!

But then you are left with the problem for those promoting the idea of immortal soul that the "PREFERRED state" in 2cor 5 CAN NOT be "the UNDESIRED state of being naked".

Do you have a solution for that?


in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

Well isn't this nice - we all seem to agree that 2Cor 5 is NOT talking about a body given to us at the moment we die- but rather that the resurrection of the saints.

That means that the "naked" state that is the "undesired state" is the condition of death between THIS life and the resurrection.

I am very surprised that everyone is on board with this!!

But then you are left with the problem for those promoting the idea of immortal soul that the "PREFERRED state" in 2cor 5 CAN NOT be "the UNDESIRED state of being naked".

Do you have a solution for that?


in Christ,

Bob

I think we need to avoid an incongruity here, for in another place, Paul says that to depart this life is far better than being here, because he gets to be with the Lord (Phil 1:23).

 

[skypair]

Please give the quote from Rev 19 (actual words I would think) that show John bowing to an OT saint OR to the dead or ... whatever you were claiming.

What's the matter -- lose your Bible??

Rev 19:10 -- "And I fell at his feet to worship him...I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: " CHURCH MARTYR

Rev 22:8 -- "And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel...I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren [John's brethren are Jews] the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book" JEWISH MARTYRS

This parallels Rev 6:9 and 7:9 who are called "fellowservants" of one another though the first were church and the latter were Jews.

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

• Paul argues that EVEN while ALIVE in this decaying tent we GROAN longing for our resurrected form NOT wanting to be in that UNCLOTHED dead state between.
• Paul describes that BETWEEN state as “NAKED” and as UNDESIRED”
• The new ETERNAL body is described as our ultimate HOME, in HEAVEN – having that which is FROM God.

4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.

I think we need to avoid an incongruity here, for in another place, Paul says that to depart this life is far better than being here, because he gets to be with the Lord (Phil 1:23).

1. There is no way to make the "naked state" of 2Cor 5 "The desired state".

2. Both 2Cor 5 and Phil 1 say that "To be with the Lord" you must "Depart". It is clear in 2Cor 5 that this "with the Lord" in the immortal body is at the same resurrection as we see in 1Cor 15.

The only way Phil 1 can then be in conflict is if you reject the dormant state of the "PERSON" in the undesired "naked state". If that person is "dormant" then they do not see the naked state. instead from the standpoint of the person they appear to go DIRECTLY from the "in this tent state" to the Resurrected "desired" state since their spirit is not "marking time" while dormant.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Please give the quote from Rev 19 (actual words I would think) that show John bowing to an OT saint OR to the dead or ... whatever you were claiming.

What's the matter -- lose your Bible??

Rev 19:10 -- "And I fell at his feet to worship him...I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: " CHURCH MARTYR

You seem to be using the snippet approach to scripture - the angel speaking in Rev 19 - is the same one speaking to John in 17:1-2

John Gill – Rev 19:9-10
And he saith unto me, write…
What follows, because of the importance of it, and to show the certainty of it, and that it may be regarded and remembered: the person speaking is either the voice from the throne, (Revelation 19:5) or the angel that attended John all along, and showed him this revelation, (Revelation 1:1) or the angel that proposed to show him the judgment of the great whore, (Revelation 17:1) .