Does the Soul or Spirit Carry Consciousness?

[skypair]

[/I]You seem to be using the snippet approach to scripture - the angel speaking in Rev 19 - is the same one speaking to John in 17:1-2

And you seem to be using the "I believe Gill who is speculating" approach. :laugh:

Actually, sir, I have traced the angel in Rev 22 back to one of the angels with the 7 vials. If you care to drop your 'know-it-all" replies, we can look into it together, eh?

skypair

 

[skypair]

That means that the "naked" state that is the "undesired state" is the condition of death between THIS life and the resurrection.

Yes, so it would seem in Rev 6:9 -- souls appear in heaven and must be given "white robes" to cover their nakedness/body-lessness.

Or from another perspective, Rev 16:15 -- "Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame." That is, blessed is the one that is RAPTURED and does not have to be ashamed that he/she didn't believe prior to the tribulation "(See Rev 3:17 -- "naked").

The "naked" state is between clothed with our earthly tent and clothed with our heavenly tent. The latter is NOT a "white robe" but a gloriously perfect body dressed in "lfine inen, white and clean," Rev 19:8, 14. The "naked" state is of OT and of tribulation believers who die in the last 7 years OR NT believers who die before the rapture.

Does that make sense? A believer arriving in heaven before or after the rapture will be "naked" -- undesireable as you say. They will be given "white robes." Paul was hoping instead to be raptured thus receiving his heavenly body IN HEAVEN directly from his earthly one, 1Cor 15:54, WIHTOUT DYING!

What I am sensing from you is that, whereas you say you believe in the rapture, you think it is to earth, no?

But then you are left with the problem for those promoting the idea of immortal soul that the "PREFERRED state" in 2cor 5 CAN NOT be "the UNDESIRED state of being naked".

Is the distinction I made clear enough to you?

skypair

 

[TCGreek]

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

• Paul argues that EVEN while ALIVE in this decaying tent we GROAN longing for our resurrected form NOT wanting to be in that UNCLOTHED dead state between.
• Paul describes that BETWEEN state as “NAKED” and as UNDESIRED”
• The new ETERNAL body is described as our ultimate HOME, in HEAVEN – having that which is FROM God.

4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.



1. There is no way to make the "naked state" of 2Cor 5 "The desired state".

2. Both 2Cor 5 and Phil 1 say that "To be with the Lord" you must "Depart". It is clear in 2Cor 5 that this "with the Lord" in the immortal body is at the same resurrection as we see in 1Cor 15.

The only way Phil 1 can then be in conflict is if you reject the dormant state of the "PERSON" in the undesired "naked state". If that person is "dormant" then they do not see the naked state. instead from the standpoint of the person they appear to go DIRECTLY from the "in this tent state" to the Resurrected "desired" state since their spirit is not "marking time" while dormant.

in Christ,

Bob

I was actually looking into this text: 2 Cor 5:4.

1. Why would Paul, as a believer, say that to be unclothed in undesirable, I do not know?

2. To be unclothed seems to be a reference to death--when a person dies.

3. But when the believer dies, the believers goes immediately home to the Lord (v.8)

4. Paul nowhere says that the undesired state is soul sleep.

5. I suspect that Paul termed that interval, between death and the believer's glorified state, as undesirable because of the importance to be placed on the glorified, heaven body, with which we will be clothed.

 

[BobRyan]

I was actually looking into this text: 2 Cor 5:4.

1. Why would Paul, as a believer, say that to be unclothed in undesirable, I do not know?

.

#1. It is pretty hard to argue that the "undesired state " in 2Cor 5 is NOT the state of death -- unclothed with any body at all (much less a sleeping one).

#2. It is pretty hard to argue that the heavenly eternal body of 2Cor 5 is not the same as the immortal one in 1Cor 15 that is given at the resurrection.

#3. It is pretty hard to argue that the "decaying tent" that we leave behind in 2Cor 5 is not the earthly body.

So given that - this is soooo undesired that we "groan in this life" longing to AVOID it with "groaning".

Trying to flip that around to being the "much preferred desrired state" in Phil 1 is quite a stretch.

It is more reasonable to conclude that JUST as Christ said in Matt 22 "God is NOT the god of the dead" and just as Paul said in 2Cor 5 "WE GROAN" longing to AVOID that state -- and just as the Eccl says "the dead know not ANYTHING" so the person who dies does not SEE himself be dead, just as Paul said in 1Cor 15 without the resurrection "the saints who have died have perished"

But as you rightly point out -- given your doctrinal assumption about death it is not only confusing for you that Paul describes it as "undesirable" it would also have to be confusing to you that Paul says WE ALL do not desire it -- all the Christians with Paul's doctrine on what happens at death were LONGING to avoid the unclothed naked state "with groaning" according to Paul.

This is something that you admit is NOT the case for anyone holding your view of death - and so is a mystery to you as to why the entire NT church viewed it as something to be avoided even to the point of "groaning in this life" over that desire.

Since the "Dead know not anything" then from the standpoint of the PERSON they perceive death as a non-state so that when you die your next instant in perception is the resurrection.

In that context Paul would view Phil 1 as desiring to depart even if it is through the door of death because that next instant after death is perceived as being "with Christ" for the one who has died. Yet the living know that it is in fact a long delayed time -- no body -- no consciousness "those who have fallen asleep" according to Paul in 1Thess 4 are "the DEAD in CHRIST".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, so it would seem in Rev 6:9 -- souls appear in heaven and must be given "white robes" to cover their nakedness/body-lessness.[/quote

Do you even listen to yourself"

A robe to put on a NON-BODY?????

As it turns not "nothing" is not able to "wear a robe" nor does it "need one". The no-body nothing of form needs no "form" to "cover" because there is "nothing to cover".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

#1. It is pretty hard to argue that the "undesired state " in 2Cor 5 is NOT the state of death -- unclothed with any body at all (much less a sleeping one).

#2. It is pretty hard to argue that the heavenly eternal body of 2Cor 5 is not the same as the immortal one in 1Cor 15 that is given at the resurrection.

#3. It is pretty hard to argue that the "decaying tent" that we leave behind in 2Cor 5 is not the earthly body.

So given that - this is soooo undesired that we "groan in this life" longing to AVOID it with "groaning".

Trying to flip that around to being the "much preferred desrired state" in Phil 1 is quite a stretch.

It is more reasonable to conclude that JUST as Christ said in Matt 22 "God is NOT the god of the dead" and just as Paul said in 2Cor 5 "WE GROAN" longing to AVOID that state -- and just as the Eccl says "the dead know not ANYTHING" so the person who dies does not SEE himself be dead, just as Paul said in 1Cor 15 without the resurrection "the saints who have died have perished"

1. It is not a STRETCH for you to include Matt 22 and Eccl to buttress your position, but it is a STRETCH for me to use Paul's own writings on the matter. Wow!

But as you rightly point out -- given your doctrinal assumption about death it is not only confusing for you that Paul describes it as "undesirable" it would also have to be confusing to you that Paul says WE ALL do not desire it -- all the Christians with Paul's doctrine on what happens at death were LONGING to avoid the unclothed naked state "with groaning" according to Paul.

This is something that you admit is NOT the case for anyone holding your view of death - and so is a mystery to you as to why the entire NT church viewed it as something to be avoided even to the point of "groaning in this life" over that desire.

Since the "Dead know not anything" then from the standpoint of the PERSON they perceive death as a non-state so that when you die your next instant in perception is the resurrection.

In that context Paul would view Phil 1 as desiring to depart even if it is through the door of death because that next instant after death is perceived as being "with Christ" for the one who has died. Yet the living know that it is in fact a long delayed time -- no body -- no consciousness "those who have fallen asleep" according to Paul in 1Thess 4 are "the DEAD in CHRIST".

in Christ,

Bob

The Good Book defines death as a SEPARATION (James 2:26). Forgive me for taking the Bible so serious.

 

[BobRyan]

The good book says that while we are in this life we "see through a glass darkly" it is the condition in which "Christ has gone away" and "we wait for his promise that He will come again". "we eagerly wait for his appearing" Phil 2 so much so that we have "fixed our hope COMPLETELY on the grace to be brought to us at the revelation of Jesus Christ" 1Peter 1:13.

YET even in this separated stated those in THIS state GROAN with anxious desire NOT TO BE in that "naked state" that comes at death.

As you pointed out- you have no explanation for that in the doctrinal model you use - yet Paul says it is not only HIS view of death but that ALL NT saints were viewing it that way!

You rightly pointed out that in your doctrinal view it is THIS STATE that is the MOST undesired with the NEXT state (that at death where you believe you are finally WITH Christ ) being FAR more DESIRED and the one after that (with resurrected body) even more desired but not like the difference between THIS life of separation and what you consider to be the NEXT state of being WITH Christ - finally happily joyously WITH Christ.

The fact that Paul declares THAT state to be the most UNDISERED of the is totally innexpicable in your view. But to make matters worse Paul says this is not just HIS view but ALL the saints view it that way! (What a wake up call that must be for you).

How amazing that their life in THIS decaying tent was better than the NAKED state that follows and so all desired to avoid it and go directly to the CLOTHED state which all of us here have admitted is the point of the resurrection of the saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

Yes, so it would seem in Rev 6:9 -- souls appear in heaven and must be given "white robes" to cover their nakedness/body-lessness.

Do you even listen to yourself"

A robe to put on a NON-BODY?????

As it turns not "nothing" is not able to "wear a robe" nor does it "need one". The no-body nothing of form needs no "form" to "cover" because there is "nothing to cover".

in Christ,

Bob

Bob -- how is it you are able to always SELECTIVELY apply symbolism to your own advantage.

First thought -- how do you think John saw the "SOULS" in the first place?

Does it not make sense to you that something that can be seen can be dressed or naked??

You're developing this growing inability to "see" on account of the mold into which you pour scriptures, aren't you?

But I'm afraid it is happening to you as to others who cannot see --- to whom God says "...be ye not mockers lest your bands be made strong:..."

skypair

 

[skypair]

#1. It is pretty hard to argue that the "undesired state " in 2Cor 5 is NOT the state of death -- unclothed with any body at all (much less a sleeping one).

#2. It is pretty hard to argue that the heavenly eternal body of 2Cor 5 is not the same as the immortal one in 1Cor 15 that is given at the resurrection.

#3. It is pretty hard to argue that the "decaying tent" that we leave behind in 2Cor 5 is not the earthly body.

You omitted one passage that contradicts your thesis on "undesireable state." That is -- Phil 1:23 "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you."

You see, you omit that naked or clothed, Paul would rather be with Christ! And that would be in soul and spirit IF he died! So your little presumptuous game is up, dude! Not only would Paul be with Christ if he died, but he would PREFER it to life! :jesus:

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

In Rev I see a lot of symbolism

1. Souls trapped under the altar
2. Beasts in Rev 12 and 13
3. The wicked woman of Babylon in Rev 17.

Your intire case is being made from the symbol of souls trapped under the altar.

But I am dealing with Paul's statement in 2Cor 5 where HE says that the state of death is in fact the "naked" state where the saints are unclothed - (in terms of an actual body) - having no body at all. Much less a "sleeping one".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You omitted one passage that contradicts your thesis on "undesireable state." That is -- Phil 1:23 "For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you."

Already solved here --
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1109141&postcount=199

You see, you omit that naked or clothed, Paul would rather be with Christ! And that would be in soul and spirit IF he died!

Sadly for your argument Paul says that the state of death -- unclothed is SOOOOoooo undesirable that even in THIS life "where we walk by faith not by sight" WE GROAN longing NOT TO BE in that state that your view so "desires".

In fact Paul argues that ALL the saints are in this GROANING with desire NOT TO BE in the state that you claim is so great.

Surely that is a good wakeup call for you -

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

• Paul argues that EVEN while ALIVE in this decaying tent we GROAN longing for our resurrected form NOT wanting to be in that UNCLOTHED dead state between.
• Paul describes that BETWEEN state as “NAKED” and as UNDESIRED”
• The new ETERNAL body is described as our ultimate HOME, in HEAVEN – having that which is FROM God.

4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.



1. There is no way to make the "naked state" of 2Cor 5 "The desired state".

2. Both 2Cor 5 and Phil 1 say that "To be with the Lord" you must "Depart". It is clear in 2Cor 5 that this "with the Lord" in the immortal body is at the same resurrection as we see in 1Cor 15.

The only way Phil 1 can then be in conflict is if you reject the dormant state of the "PERSON" in the undesired "naked state". If that person is "dormant" then they do not see the naked state. instead from the standpoint of the person they appear to go DIRECTLY from the "in this tent state" to the Resurrected "desired" state since their spirit is not "marking time" while dormant.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

In Rev I see a lot of symbolism

1. Souls trapped under the altar
2. Beasts in Rev 12 and 13
3. The wicked woman of Babylon in Rev 17.

Your intire case is being made from the symbol of souls trapped under the altar.

But I am dealing with Paul's statement in 2Cor 5 where HE says that the state of death is in fact the "naked" state where the saints are unclothed - (in terms of an actual body) - having no body at all. Much less a "sleeping one".

in Christ,

Bob

Well, I see you are online so I will give you credit for adding assumptions to Phil 1:23 so that your theology remains intact. Where do you get that Paul waits any time to see Jesus? Certainly NOT from the text of context! Will you ever face the scriptures "head on?" I mean, I would never look at that scripture and say, "Oh, Paul is talking about a time lapse before being with Christ." You are bringing it in from your theology.

And the souls were not "trapped" under the altar. You have no idea what the symbolism means, do you? In the OT, the blood from the sacrifices on the altar ran down to the bottom of the altar. These souls represent the "sacrifices" of the lives of martyred saints! The progression through Revelation is from the altar to the "sea of glass" laver to the tabernacle -- the heavenly counterpart to what is going on in the earth.

And "naked" in Rev 6:9 has EVERYTHING TO DO WITH "naked" in 2Cor 5 -- you are just refusing to see it!

You know, if you really cared about what God says, I would think you would start asking pointed questions rather than "blowing off" things you don't understand. One thing I would recommend is that you start breaking those "bands" that have got you blind by images without substance.

skypair

 

[skypair]

In fact Paul argues that ALL the saints are in this GROANING with desire NOT TO BE in the state that you claim is so great.

There is clearly a continuum here: alive on earth -- present with Christ -- clothed upon with glory.

Paul says BOTH glory and present with the Lord are better than alive. Would you agree? But since he could appear naked in heaven, he would obviously prefer to be clothed upon than merely present with Christ.

This is the interpretation I get. He KNOWS he could appear naked -- as in Rev 6:9 -- in soul alone. That's preferable to life but not to being clothed.

The fact that he could appear naked is confirmation that his soul could appear as those in Rev 6:9.

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

In your view
1. THIS life is the WORST and most UNDESIRED state.
2. The state of death is EVEN BETTER
3. The state of resurrection EVEN better.

In your view
1. We LONG to avoid THIS life
2. We DESIRE to be in the dead state
3. We desire EVEN MORE to be in the resurrected state.

BY CONTRAST scripture says --

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

• Paul argues that EVEN while ALIVE in this decaying tent we GROAN longing for our resurrected form NOT wanting to be in that UNCLOTHED dead state between.
• Paul describes that BETWEEN state as “NAKED” and as UNDESIRED”
• The new ETERNAL body is described as our ultimate HOME, in HEAVEN – having that which is FROM God.

4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.



1. There is no way to make the "naked state" of 2Cor 5 "The desired state".

2. Both 2Cor 5 and Phil 1 say that "To be with the Lord" you must "Depart". It is clear in 2Cor 5 that this "with the Lord" in the immortal body is at the same resurrection as we see in 1Cor 15.

---------------------------------------

Surely we can find a way to edit scripture for what your view needs.

2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be naked and WITH the lord in death for that is much better than this life
EVEN better would be to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found in THIS life with our decaying tent still with us.

My argument has never been that there is no extent of Bible editing that will not eventually get you what your view needs.

 

[skypair]

In your view
1. THIS life is the WORST and most UNDESIRED state.
2. The state of death is EVEN BETTER
3. The state of resurrection EVEN better.

...

1. There is no way to make the "naked state" of 2Cor 5 "The desired state".

2. Both 2Cor 5 and Phil 1 say that "To be with the Lord" you must "Depart". It is clear in 2Cor 5 that this "with the Lord" in the immortal body is at the same resurrection as we see in 1Cor 15.

You were right the first time.

"Good -- better -- best."​

All you are doing is omitting the "naked" state from consideration. It's not there to you and so it is not there in scripture. But as you can see in Rev 6:9, souls get their prayers redressed in the 'naked' state -- re: the 7th seal, the censer with the prayers of the saints cast into the earth.

"Clothed" in heaven = 1Cor15 but "naked" in heaven = 2Cor 5 and Phil 1:23. You are merely ignoring what doesn't 'fit' with your presumption.

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

In 2cor 5 the "naked state" is the state that is soooo undesirable even those in THIS LIFE seek to avoid it.

This is what TCG easily sees in 2Cor 5 and admits that his view has no way to account for that.

You seem to still be playing dodgeball on this one.

However at least you bring yourself to admit that in your view the - state of death - the "naked state" of 2Cor 5 is "THE BETTER state" than being in this decaying tent in this life! An exact contradiction to what Paul speaks to in 2Cor 5 and yet you seem very willing to embrace it!

Oh well - as long as you know you are doing it --

in Christ,

Bob

 

[skypair]

However at least you bring yourself to admit that in your view the - state of death - the "naked state" of 2Cor 5 is "THE BETTER state" than being in this decaying tent in this life!

So you now accept that there is no "soul sleep?" That's good. I was starting to worry about you.

skypair

 

[BobRyan]

I simply wanted to make sure we all see that you insist that the "naked state" is the "more desired state" while (by contrast) Paul declares that is the "undesired state" so much so that EVEN while in THIS decaying tent we groan to AVOID that state you call "the better state".

For Paul the list in 2Cor 5 is

NOW: THIS state -- in this decaying tent
Worse State: the Naked UNDESIRED state
BEST state: the future resurrected state.

Your view is that the one and only state in 2cor 5 which we all groan to AVOID -- is the "preferred state".

As long as you are happy to admit to that contradiction - I don't mind pointing it out.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I was actually looking into this text: 2 Cor 5:4.

1. Why would Paul, as a believer, say that to be unclothed in undesirable, I do not know?

2. To be unclothed seems to be a reference to death--when a person dies.

All true.

And I can see why this would be confusing given your preferred view of this.

5. I suspect that Paul termed that interval, between death and the believer's glorified state, as undesirable because of the importance to be placed on the glorified, heaven body, with which we will be clothed.

Certainly we agree that -- it is that middle state that he "groans in this life" to avold and in fact he says "WE ALL groan" in this life to avoid it.

in Christ,

Bob