Does the Soul or Spirit Carry Consciousness?

[skypair]

Umm Bob,

Are you disavowing "soul sleep?"

skypair

 

[DHK]

In 2cor 5 the "naked state" is the state that is soooo undesirable even those in THIS LIFE seek to avoid it.Bob

But no one seeks to avoid that state in heaven. Your comparison is apples and oranges.
God is spirit. They that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
What is God clothed in? What was he clothed in before the foundation of the earth?
What are the angels of heaven clothed in--all of them?
How do you know? Remember, they are spirits. How do you clothe spirit beings? You assume too much Bob.
BTW, how many angels can sit on the top of the head of a needle?

 

[TCGreek]

In 2cor 5 the "naked state" is the state that is soooo undesirable even those in THIS LIFE seek to avoid it.

This is what TCG easily sees in 2Cor 5 and admits that his view has no way to account for that.

1. Please, don't make too much of mine comments! I encourage you to read them carefully.

2. Neither is Paul saying that the undesired state is "soul sleep." BTW, Why would SLEEP be undesirable?

3. My own conclusion of the Interval, if you will, is to HEIGHTEN the expectation of being clothed with the heavenly.

 

[BobRyan]

In this tent -- decaying as it is -- we are conscious and we can worship the Lord.

In the resurrected state -with our eternal bodies we are conscious and can worship the Lord.

so what is WORSE than BOTH of those states?

Being unconscious - NOT able to fellowship with the Lord so much so that even Christ says "God is NOT the God of the Dead" Matt 22 in a case where Christ says the only SOLUTION for the dead is -- the resurrection.

Unconscious such that as Paul says in 1Thess 4 and in 1Cor 15 "Without the resurrection" it would simply be "that we have perished with NO HOPE at all".

Unconscious so that Christ says of Lazarus the PERSON (Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM).

Unconscious so that even scripture says there is no "WORSHIP" or PRAISE to God among those who have died.

Because of all these obvious limitations in that dormant state of nakedness "WE GROAN in this life" longing to AVOID it.

Clearly we both see that is how my view can easily accomodate the 2nd state as the WORST state. Your challenge by contrast is to come up with a good story for that NAKED state and show why IT is still the least desirable of the 3 states given your view of death as being ENHANCED fellowship with Christ far beyond anything we have here today.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

3. My own conclusion of the Interval, if you will, is to HEIGHTEN the expectation of being clothed with the heavenly.

So now you want to claim that we who are ALIVE and separated physcially from Christ, in this DECAYING tent (without our eternal bodies) admit that we all "GROAN in this life desiring to AVOID" the state of being WITH CHRIST in perfect fellowship and sinless harmony -- if it must be without our ETERNAL bodies? This is the extreme to which you are willing to go???

AS If being WITH Christ is so much to be AVOIDED in this life if it means to be WITH Christ without our eternal body???

This is the great thing that in THIS LIFE we desire to AVOID????

Surely that story has to be intellectually and Biblically unsatisfying for you no matter how devoted you are to that prior belief!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

But no one seeks to avoid that state in heaven. Your comparison is apples and oranges.
God is spirit. They that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
What is God clothed in? What was he clothed in before the foundation of the earth?

You are making the case for why 2Cor 5 SHOULD have been written "in this life we GROAN LONGING to go to that naked state of pure fellowship with God in spirit and even more to go on to that eternal-body clothed state -- but in all cases to LEAVE this separated state behind!"

How sad for your view - that we have the actual chapter of 2Cor 5 "instead".

DHK
What are the angels of heaven clothed in--all of them?
How do you know? Remember, they are spirits. How do you clothe spirit beings? You assume too much Bob.

They (angels) "COVER THEIR BODIES with their wings" Ezek 8 (yes we can really believe scripture on that point)

In each case where I trust scripture - those who oppose my views try to explain why scripture should not be accepted for what it says.

 

[BobRyan]

Umm Bob,

Are you disavowing "soul sleep?"

skypair

The "person" is dormant in sleep -- their prior body "turns to dust" it does not sleep.

Christ said of "the PERSON" Lazarus "Lazarus sleeps I go that I may wake HIM".

What is it you think I am denying?

 

[BobRyan]

In your view
1. THIS life is the WORST and most UNDESIRED state.
2. The state of death is EVEN BETTER
3. The state of resurrection EVEN better.

In your view
1. We LONG to avoid THIS life
2. We DESIRE to be in the dead state
3. We desire EVEN MORE to be in the resurrected state.

BY CONTRAST scripture says --

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

• Paul argues that EVEN while ALIVE in this decaying tent we GROAN longing for our resurrected form NOT wanting to be in that UNCLOTHED dead state between.
• Paul describes that BETWEEN state as “NAKED” and as UNDESIRED”
• The new ETERNAL body is described as our ultimate HOME, in HEAVEN – having that which is FROM God.

4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.



1. There is no way to make the "naked state" of 2Cor 5 "The desired state".

2. Both 2Cor 5 and Phil 1 say that "To be with the Lord" you must "Depart". It is clear in 2Cor 5 that this "with the Lord" in the immortal body is at the same resurrection as we see in 1Cor 15.

 

[BobRyan]

Surely we can find a way to edit scripture for what your view needs.

2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be naked and WITH the lord in death for that is much better than this life
EVEN better would be to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found in THIS life with our decaying tent still with us.

My argument has never been that there is no extent of Bible editing that will not eventually get you what your view needs.

 

[DHK]

You are making the case for why 2Cor 5 SHOULD have been written "in this life we GROAN LONGING to go to that naked state of pure fellowship with God in spirit and even more to go on to that eternal-body clothed state -- but in all cases to LEAVE this separated state behind!"

How sad for your view - that we have the actual chapter of 2Cor 5 "instead".

It seems like I should come up with a synonym for naked (is unclothed better). That concept really bothers you doesn't it? Again, does a spirit have clothes. Does God Almighty wear clothing, and did he before the earth was created? Why does this concept bother you so much--a naked God!! God is spirit Bob! He doesn't need clothes. The Bible says about God: "He has need of nothing." If he had need of anything he wouldn't be God. God doesn't need clothes. To think so is absurd. He is spirit.

Is the Holy Spirit a person or a force. I hope you believe He is a person for he is. To say otherwise is to believe in a heresy and deny the trinity. What clothes does the Holy Spirit wear? Do you also refer to him as naked? Will the Holy Spirit ever receive a body?

So likewise we will not be in an earthly body nor a heavenly body if we die before the resurrection takes place. When the resurrection takes place--"we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is."

They (angels) "COVER THEIR BODIES with their wings" Ezek 8 (yes we can really believe scripture on that point)

Your argument goes like this:
Psalms 133:2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
--We know that Aaron the priest had a beard that went down to hem of his garment--a very long beard.
Therefore, we know all OT priests had beards that went down to the hems of their garments.
Is that right?

Just because you have a picture of one angel in Ezekiel does not mean that that is the way all of God's angels are created or look that way. Abraham talked with the Lord in the presence of two angels. Lot later met those two angels who were barely discernable from other men. Perhaps all angels just look like other men. That is the way they are portrayed in Genesis 18:2

2 Chronicles 18:18-22 Again he said, Therefore hear the word of the LORD; I saw the LORD sitting upon his throne, and all the host of heaven standing on his right hand and on his left. And the LORD said, Who shall entice Ahab king of Israel, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one spake saying after this manner, and another saying after that manner. Then there came out a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will entice him. And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go out, and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And the LORD said, Thou shalt entice him, and thou shalt also prevail: go out, and do even so. Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil against thee.

Tell me: How was this lying spirit clothed that encountered the false prophets of Ahab? Are you sure that he had wings? :laugh:

In each case where I trust scripture - those who oppose my views try to explain why scripture should not be accepted for what it says.

You don't trust Scripture. You don't know what Scripture says. Much of Scripture, as in the above reference is totally silent on how an angel (a spirit) is clothed--a ridiculous subject since most of them are spirits which cannot be seen. Most of the angels in the Bible appeared in human form. How did the angel appear to Manoah, Mary, Joseph, Zechariah, etc. Study the Bible Bob! Not fairy tale books.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, does a spirit have clothes. Does God Almighty wear clothing, and did he before the earth was created? Why does this concept bother you so much--a naked God!!

Interesting diversion from the details of the text DHK! It is like you want to blame ME for the wording of 2Cor 5:laugh:

Here it is again - getting this "back to scripture".


scripture says --

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

• Paul argues that EVEN while ALIVE in this decaying tent we GROAN longing for our resurrected form NOT wanting to be in that UNCLOTHED dead state between.
• Paul describes that BETWEEN state as “NAKED” and as UNDESIRED”
• The new ETERNAL body is described as our ultimate HOME, in HEAVEN – having that which is FROM God.

4 For indeed while we are in this tent, we groan, being burdened, because we do not want to be unclothed but to be clothed, so that what is mortal will be swallowed up by life.



1. There is no way to make the "naked state" of 2Cor 5 "The desired state".

THEN you want to side track about "God's clothes"!!:laugh:

DHK
God is spirit Bob! He doesn't need clothes. The Bible says about God: "He has need of nothing." If he had need of anything he wouldn't be God. God doesn't need clothes. To think so is absurd. He is spirit.

I think this is the part where you want me to quote 2Cor 5 "again" to bring you back to the subject -- please refer to the details above still waiting an actual answer.

...

But then you want to sidetrack onto the Trinity

(endless hopping around DHK??)

Is the Holy Spirit a person or a force. I hope you believe He is a person for he is. To say otherwise is to believe in a heresy and deny the trinity. What clothes does the Holy Spirit wear?

He is the Third Person of the Trinity -raying: - he has not given me His wardrobe details -:laugh:

Do you also refer to him as naked? Will the Holy Spirit ever receive a body?

Is this the part where you want to convince me to edit my Bible so 2Cor 5 does not use this term for the dead in Christ - who have NO bodies at all in death?

The UNDESIRED state!

How can you make your argument on such a basis DHK and be taken seriously?

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Referring to the 2Cor5 text just posted --

DHK

So likewise we will not be in an earthly body nor a heavenly body if we die before the resurrection takes place.

Yep - we seem to agree there.

Hence the "unclothed" description ... i.e. "no body" associated. (No not even a sleeping one)

(DHK seeking another proof) -

Your argument goes like this:
Psalms 133:2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
--We know that Aaron the priest had a beard that went down to hem of his garment--a very long beard.
Therefore, we know all OT priests had beards that went down to the hems of their garments.
Is that right?

Crickets...

you're reaching again DHK.

DHK

Just because you have a picture of one angel in Ezekiel does not mean that that is the way all of God's angels are created or look that way.

I prefer to let scripture describe them -- instead of having their description from the book of "DHK".

But of course "we digress" the point in 2cor 5 is that this unclothed-naked stated is described as the UNDESIRED state - the one that we EVEN in this life seek to AVOID!

Will you ever be circling back to the actual point??

DHK
Abraham talked with the Lord in the presence of two angels. Lot later met those two angels who were barely discernable from other men.

Crickets...

DHK
Tell me: How was this lying spirit clothed that encountered the false prophets of Ahab? Are you sure that he had wings? :laugh:

Are you ever coming back to the actual point of 2Cor5???

(Then of course you close with your obligatory ranting)

DHK
You don't trust Scripture. You don't know what Scripture says.

Ahhh - finally you gave your best "proof" -- I see it now. And as nice an empty-claim as that is -- I was looking for a response to the points raised in 2Cor 5.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

So now you want to claim that we who are ALIVE and separated physcially from Christ, in this DECAYING tent (without our eternal bodies) admit that we all "GROAN in this life desiring to AVOID" the state of being WITH CHRIST in perfect fellowship and sinless harmony -- if it must be without our ETERNAL bodies? This is the extreme to which you are willing to go???

Emphasis, my friend must be placed on the expectancy of the heavenly body or we will have Paul going against himself (Phil 1:23). Now, I'm willing to live with that much revealed and that much veiled.

 

[BobRyan]

Both the first state and the 2nd state are "Without the eternal heavenly body".

Why would someone in the first state (already without the eternal home) speak of the second state as a step DOWN -- so much "to be avoided" that we in THIS life "groan within ourselves" desiring to avoid it?

Surely being with Christ in perfect fellowship is FAR greater compared to this life than is being in Fellowship AND having that eternal body!!

Your view diminishes the value of being WITH Christ in perfect fellowship BELOW the value of having this decaying tent swapped out for the eternal one.

Again - I don't see how this can be a satifying solution for you.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

So what is this undesired state? Is it soul sleep?

 

[skypair]

In this tent -- decaying as it is -- we are conscious and we can worship the Lord.

What am I denying? I showed you in Rev 7:9 souls worshipping God. I showed you "angels" -- dead saints -- worshipping God.

In the resurrected state -with our eternal bodies we are conscious and can worship the Lord.

Perhaps you don't know that there is a resurrection of the spirit and soul. Is that the case? Do you know that Christ -- when He "took captivity captive" -- resurrected the OT souls from sheol? I mean, you might well be right that these couldn't worship God -- they were nowhere near Him. They were in "Abraham's bosom" with Abraham!

Being unconscious - NOT able to fellowship with the Lord so much so that even Christ says "God is NOT the God of the Dead" Matt 22 in a case where Christ says the only SOLUTION for the dead is -- the resurrection.[/qupte] Do you see that Jesus might well have said that of the OT saints?

Unconscious such that as Paul says in 1Thess 4 and in 1Cor 15 "Without the resurrection" it would simply be "that we have perished with NO HOPE at all".

Yes, I do. But we are resurrected in spirit as soon as we die. And in the case of the NT saints, as soon as we receive Christ! Baptist is the representation of that truth, don't you know.

Unconscious so that Christ says of Lazarus the PERSON (Lazarus SLEEPS I go that I may wake HIM).

We all know by now that He was referring to the body, not the spirit. And how, from that passage, can you prove otherwise?

Unconscious so that even scripture says there is no "WORSHIP" or PRAISE to God among those who have died.

See above.

Because of all these obvious limitations in that dormant state of nakedness "WE GROAN in this life" longing to AVOID it.

But you just agreed that it is better than this life, Phil 1:23 (??)

Bob -- are you a Sadducee*? Because you are so very sad you see! :laugh:

skypair

*didn't believe in the resurrection -- the soul going to heaven.

 

[DHK]

Interesting diversion from the details of the text DHK! It is like you want to blame ME for the wording of 2Cor 5

No, just for your mockery and your unbelief in the said scripture. Sad.

Here it is again - getting this "back to scripture".

scripture says --

2 Corinthians 5
1 For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2 For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven,
3 inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.

• Paul argues that EVEN while ALIVE in this decaying tent we GROAN longing for our resurrected form NOT wanting to be in that UNCLOTHED dead state between.

• No he doesn't say that, you are saying that he says that, in other words you are adding to the Scripture your own pre-conceived ideas. What does he really say. Does he actually say that he does not want to be in that unclothed state?

Not once does Paul actually say that he does not want to be in that "unclothed state." NO, not once. What he does say is that he looks forward to the resurrection (clothed state). But you have made a logical fallacy in assuming that it means he doesn't like the unclothed state; that he doesn't desire it. Your logic and conclusions are wrong.
To use another example:
Revelation 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
--John looked forward to the same thing--the coming of the Lord; the resurrection; a new and resurrected body.
Do we therefore assume that until then John will be dissatisfied with "the unclothed state" after he dies? You are reading into the Scripture things that are not there. Paul did not say what you have him saying. Neither did John think the same. There is no hint of dissatisfaction from either one. Both express an expectation and desire for the 2nd Coming as every true believer in Christ does. I do also. That does not take away my desire to be with Christ if I die before that time comes. I believe the same was and is true of the Apostles.

• Paul describes that BETWEEN state as “NAKED” and as UNDESIRED”

• Scripture please? This is but an assumption on your part with no Scriptural basis. Why are you making things up? He does not say "naked is undesired." That is what you say. He states that he looks forward to the day that he will be clothed upon, meaning looking forward to the resurrection, which we all do. That doesn't mean any other state is "undesired." You are reading into Scripture things that are not there.

  [*]The new ETERNAL body is described as our ultimate HOME, in HEAVEN – having that which is FROM God.

  Both our disembodied spirits (unclothed immortal spirits that inhabit heaven before the resurrection as the Apostles have been doing for the last 2000 years) and our resurrection bodies are "at home with the Lord."
  

2 Corinthians 5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
--This does not indicate a resurrection body. It simply indicates one who dies will be with the Lord, whether clothed upon with a resurrected body or not. The human spirit is immortal. It never dies.

 

[BobRyan]

So what is this undesired state? Is it soul sleep?

In 2Cor 5 the undesired the state is the one with "no body" at all.

The term Paul uses is "naked" simply to convey that we have no body and that it is as undesired as being naked.

The reason it is not desired was already explained by Paul in 1Cor 15 (to that same church) where he points out without the resurrection not ONLY do we not get our heavenly body - we also have "no hope" even the saints have "perished".

So there are TWO states with fellowship and worship to God - the FIRST stated (in this body - this decaying tent) and the THIRD state (in the heavenly immortal body of 1Cor 15 and 2Cor 5.)

The middle state is WORSE than them all and much to be avoided since IT is the state of NO fellowship - no worship. It is easy to see that such a dormant - no-body state is WORSE than any of the three.

Your problem is that you are stuck saying it is FARRR BETTER than the first and yet you have Paul saying that those in the FIRST state view that as SOOOO undesirable that they IN THIS life GROAN in anxious desire to AVOID it!

You then end up saying that those in THIS life - consider being WITH Christ of so little value and consider having ETERNAL bodies of SO GREAT value - that they look to AVOID simply "being with Christ in perfect union and fellowship if it is without that eternal body" and you suppose this is what they are GROANING to avoid

Surely that can not be satisfying solution for you - Surely it is a sign for you that you view is "in a corner" and you have taken a wrong turn.

TCG - here is "yet another solution" for saving the POV you are trying to support here -- it is DHK's "deny-all" solution.

DHK

• No he doesn't say that, you are saying that he says that, in other words you are adding to the Scripture your own pre-conceived ideas. What does he really say. Does he actually say that he does not want to be in that unclothed state?

Not once does Paul actually say that he does not want to be in that "unclothed state." NO, not once.

To tell you the truth TCG - this would be funny if it were not so sad that the two solutions provided so far in favor of immortal conscious soul "in death" -- are so desperate recently (as seen on this thread).

Please tell me that you "notice a problem". It's like you guys are casting about you for solutions - no matter how extreme.


in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob (agrees with Paul in 2Cor 5 --the second state is to be AVOIDED)

Quote:
Because of all these obvious limitations in that dormant state of nakedness "WE GROAN in this life" longing to AVOID it.

Skypair (making stuff up)
But you just agreed that it is better than this life, Phil 1:23 (??)

Where did you see me claiming that Phil 1 is a reference to the 2nd-state of 2Cor 5 as "BETTER than this life"???

Quote please.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[TCGreek]

In 2Cor 5 the undesired the state is the one with "no body" at all.

The term Paul uses is "naked" simply to convey that we have no body and that it is as undesired as being naked.

The reason it is not desired was already explained by Paul in 1Cor 15 (to that same church) where he points out without the resurrection not ONLY do we not get our heavenly body - we also have "no hope" even the saints have "perished".

1. Why are building your doctrine on the logical outworkings of the opponents' position is 1 Cor 15:12ff. Paul is apply the ad hominen argument.

So there are TWO states with fellowship and worship to God - the FIRST stated (in this body - this decaying tent) and the THIRD state (in the heavenly immortal body of 1Cor 15 and 2Cor 5.)

2. Scripture?

The middle state is WORSE than them all and much to be avoided since IT is the state of NO fellowship - no worship. It is easy to see that such a dormant - no-body state is WORSE than any of the three.

3. Scripture?

Your problem is that you are stuck saying it is FARRR BETTER than the first and yet you have Paul saying that those in the FIRST state view that as SOOOO undesirable that they IN THIS life GROAN in anxious desire to AVOID it!

4. I can only affirm what is plainly taught in Scripture. When I cannot do that, I respect silence or interpret a difficult text in light of a clearer text. I try not to manufacture my own explanations.

You then end up saying that those in THIS life - consider being WITH Christ of so little value and consider having ETERNAL bodies of SO GREAT value - that they look to AVOID simply "being with Christ in perfect union and fellowship if it is without that eternal body" and you suppose this is what they are GROANING to avoid

5. Where did I say that? Rather, I side with Paul 2 Cor 5:8; Phil 1:23.

Surely that can not be satisfying solution for you - Surely it is a sign for you that you view is "in a corner" and you have taken a wrong turn.

6. What you consider a proverbial "corner" is my insistence on Paul's HEIGHTENED language, eagerly expecting the heavenly body (Phil 3:21).

7. So is the undesired state, soul sleep?