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Featured Does the Word of God evidence the Trinity or is the Godhead simply reasoned out from Scripture?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by JonC, Mar 22, 2022.

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  1. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Over the past year there has been challenges to the Doctrine of the Trinity, that Smthe text of Scrioture does not state that God is One, and that the Father is God, and that the Son and Father are One, and that the Spirit is God's Spirit ot the Spirit of God. Instead, @Martin Marprelate , @AustinC and @Iconoclast has taken the position that the belief God s One, the Father and Son are One and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God is reasoned out of Scripture.

    So here is the mission, should you choose to accept it :) , try to find passages confirming those truths. These verses do not, of course, need to be in one place but they do need to be in the actual text of Scripture.
     
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The Father is God.


    Isaiah 64:8 - But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Jesus and the Father are One, the Word is God:

    John 1:1 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 10:25–33 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father’s name, these testify of Me. “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. “I and the Father are one.” The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    The Holy Spirit is God's Spirit

    2 Corinthians 3:17
    . Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.

    1 Corinthians 3:16. Don’t you know that you yourselves are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in your midst?

    1 Corinthians 2:11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

    Psalm 143:10. Teach me to do your will,
    for you are my God;
    may your good Spirit
    lead me on level ground.

    1 John 5:7. For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
     
  6. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    One Godhead in Three Distinct Persons, Who are 100% equally YHWH
     
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  7. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 48:16

    Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this: From the beginning I have not spoken in secret; from the time that it was, there am I; and now the Lord GOD hath sent Me, and His Spirit
     
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  8. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    The Hebrew for Deuteronomy 6:4, can also mean;

    “Hear, O Israel: Yahweh our God Yahweh is Unique”
     
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  9. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Good to see you using this very important Scripture, which is without any doubt, the Original as written by John. Regardless of the corrupt Greek manuscripts that have removed the words, God endured that they were put back where they belong, and used a humanist scholar, Erasmus, because the "Reformed" would have not done so!
     
  10. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 28:19 and The Trinity

    “Therefore go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit”

    “εἰς τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ πατρὸς καὶ τοῦ υἱοῦ καὶ τοῦ ἁγίου πνεύματος”

    In the first place, Jesus does not say, “ὀνόματα”, which is the plural number, “Names”, as in “The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit”, Three Names. Rather, it is clear that Jesus says, “τὸ ὄνομα”, THE NAME. In Greek, as the preposition “εἰς” is used, there is no need for the definite article, “τὸ”, as we could still say “The Name”. It is done here by Jesus for a clear purpose, to show that He has a definite NAME in mind.

    The NAME is what was given to Moses, when he saw the Burning Bush in Exodus chapter 3. In verse 13 Moses says to God:

    “And Moses said to God, Behold, when I come to the sons of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of your fathers has sent me to you, and they shall say to me, What is His Name? What shall I say to them?”

    To which we see the reply from the Lord:

    “And God said to Moses, I AM THAT I AM. And He said, So you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you. And God said to Moses again, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, YAHWEH the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My Name forever, and this is My title from generation to generation” (verses 14-15)

    “Ehyeh ’ăsher ’ehyeh”, is what God told Moses, which is best translated as “I am that I am”, as the ever-present God, Who went before the Children of Israel. The Hebrew Name of God, “Yahweh”, has its root in the verb, “’ehyeh”, speaking of the “eternal, self-existence” of the God of the Holy Bible, Who is Unique, as He has no equal. Interesting, when the Jewish scholars who translated the Hebrew Old Testament into Greek, in the 2nd century BC, which has become known as the Septuagint (LXX) Version, they translated these words in verse 14, as, “ Εγω ειμι ὁ Ων”, literally, “I am He Who Exists”, or, “I am The Eternal One”. Which is what the Hebrew means. The Name YAHWEH is God’s Name forever. This is The Name that is used by Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:19. One Divine Name, for The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Thereby asserting their absolute, equal DEITY.

    Next, we read, “του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος”, that is, “The Father and The Son and The Holy Spirit”. The Greek "article" (του), is repeated, with each noun, to show that a "distinction" of Persons is meant. “The repeated article, on the other hand, implies a separation, in themselves, or in the view taken of them” (Dr Samuel Green; Handbook to the Grammar of the Greek Testament, pages, 198-199). The Father is not the Son or the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father or the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit, is not the Father or the Son.
     
  11. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Philosophically apart from the written word of God, this can be deduced God to be persons.
    One God as three distinct entities identified as persons.

    First what God is. Being who He is.

    Second all the things that are not God have been caused. A cause requires God yet is distinct from God and must be God too. A second entity.

    Third what constitutes the two distinct entities being the same entity is a third entity.

    First what God is. Being who He is.
    Existence exists. God is the uncaused really in which our existence exists. Because of unbelief I must show a Scripture, Acts of the Apostles, 17:28, . . . For in Him we live, and move, and have our existence . . . .
     
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  12. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    For some reason I want to call the OP, Patrick...
     
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Probably because you were one of those who claimed that the truth that God is One, the Spirit is God's Spirit, and Jesus and the Father are one is foreign to the actual text of Scripture.

    Scripture is not true only if you understand it. It is true, period. Rather than bending God's Word to your understanding you should study what is written. I may be a slow process, but understanding will come. When you take it as an analogy and look for another meaning then you will find another meaning. But what you find will not be biblical doctrine.
     
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  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Laugh out loud, I think you may even be speaking Celtic here. Anyone care to translate the words that Jon just wrote. I mean really, Patrick... :D
     
  15. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Well, let's make it easy for you to understand.

    The OP asks for passages that state God is One, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of God, and the Father and Son are One.

    You claimed that the Trinity could not be found in Scripture itself (in the text of Scripture).

    How is that an analogy?

    Now, if you mean some of the 9 passages I quoted are not making doctrinal statements regarding the Trinity but Christ was saying them to emphasize His work as of the Father then I agree.

    But if, as you say, those passages are analytical rather than meant as fact or truth in themselves, then how is Christ not a liar? How can He say that He and the Father are One as an analogy if in fact they are not One?
     
  16. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Both the Old Testament and New Testament gives us explicit evidence for the three Persons who are God.

    The term "Trinity" is the name of the explanation. Not a mystery.
     
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  17. Reformed1689

    Reformed1689 Well-Known Member

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    Why do I get the feeling there is some misrepresentation going on in this thread?
     
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  18. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I agree.

    But over and over again I have seen members on this forum argue that the Trinity (not the title, but the Godhead) is not actually in the Bible but is a teaching reasoned out of the Bible.

    My argument is that there indeed are passages (the text) that we can turn to which verifies that God is One and triune.
     
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  19. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    What???
     
  20. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    What people get confused about is that the Trinity are the Persons. God is not made up of parts. Simply, each of those distinct Persons individually are each that same God. Now the Son of God was and is both the Son and God. And the Son of God, He is another topic. He is God the uncaused Cause, John 1:3, John 1:10.

    Philosophical and Biblical Trinity of God.
     
    #20 37818, Mar 22, 2022
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2022
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