Does this Baptist pastor sound like a theological liberal?

[Ed Edwards]

Obviously this person is a Moderate.

Here is the Religous
scale of what is believed about
the uniqueness of the salvation experience:

Conservateve Baptist
---- must have a personal/exciting experience

Moderate
---- may have personal experience or a development gradient

Liberal
---- must have an evolutionary development gradient

I have the best of both worlds

I was saved on a development gradient with
a distinct

Ah Ha!!

moment in April 1952

 

[Scott J]

I am still interested in any scripture you all have that would support a testimony of "From his earliest memories, he has been in relationship with Jesus Christ."

Perhaps a more in depth conversation would reveal more. I don't know. What I do know is that words like "believe, called, faith, trust, and repent" are used so frequently in direct relation to salvation that it strongly mitigates against the idea that someone would not have a recognizable "before and after" impression. These things are conscious, willful events.

Does anyone have scripture that suggests salvation should be anything other that something that a person can remember and recognize in their lives?

 

[Kiffen]

Does anyone have scripture that suggests salvation should be anything other that something that a person can remember and recognize in their lives?

I am not sure about the Pastor we are talking about Testimony. Not enough info for me to say. There however is no Scripture that asks us to base our assurance of our salvation upon an experience that happened years ago. 1 John asks instead do we have a present active Faith in Christ.

A person should recognize Christ presence in Salvation in their life I agree. To remember the exact moment one was saved is not something scripture asks us. Think about it...Do any of us remember the exact moment we were born? Nope. It does not change the fact we are living right now and that we were born. As we get older, the details of many events fade.

I am more disturbed at people who can tell me all the details and how they cried and wept, Yet since that "Conversion" experience there was no change in their life. Instead they have lived godless, never go to Church, BUT they will tell you they have assurance of Salvation because they walked an aisle when they were 8 years old, cried, shook the preachers hand. Such a testimony however is no different from someone who is trusting in their infant baptism to get them into Heaven.

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Kiffen:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Does anyone have scripture that suggests salvation should be anything other that something that a person can remember and recognize in their lives?

I am not sure about the Pastor we are talking about Testimony. Not enough info for me to say. There however is no Scripture that asks us to base our assurance of our salvation upon an experience that happened years ago. 1 John asks instead do we have a present active Faith in Christ. </font>[/QUOTE] Agreed. However, scripture does use the words I cited and those are things that happen to us conciously.

OTOH, the scriptural examples of conversion are events that could be remembered... not processes, and certainly not attained unconciously as an infant.

A person should recognize Christ presence in Salvation in their life I agree. To remember the exact moment one was saved is not something scripture asks us.

That isn't what I am suggesting.

I was saved at 7 or 8. I remember realizing I was lost. I remember the burden of my conviction. I remember the man who prayed with me. I remember the exact place... but I can't give you a date. That bothered me until I realized the truth of what you said.

OTOH, the scriptural examples are pretty clear and unanimous. A person knew they were lost and believed... an event.

I am more disturbed at people who can tell me all the details and how they cried and wept, Yet since that "Conversion" experience there was no change in their life.

Agreed. But this has no direct bearing on those who appear to do good works without ever having a genuine, biblically consistent conversion.

Instead they have lived godless, never go to Church, BUT they will tell you they have assurance of Salvation because they walked an aisle when they were 8 years old, cried, shook the preachers hand. Such a testimony however is no different from someone who is trusting in their infant baptism to get them into Heaven.

Agreed. I have known many of these types.

 

[Charles Meadows]

Remember that in NT times Christianity was still in its nascent stages. It simply had not been around long enough for anyone to have been "raised up" with Christianity. Not to minimize the importance of a "conversion experience" - but I would not think it a bad thing that one would live a life in which Christ had ALWAYS been recognized as personal savior.

 

[Kiffen]

Hi Scott J,

I don't think I have any major disagreement with you on this. I cannot say what the pastor on the website believes. I do know of people who say they know they are saved but cannot remember the event. I always suggest anyone lacking assurance to immerse themself in 1 John unless they have come to the conclusion they have never been saved.

Dr. John MacArthur I believe has often said that he cannot recall remembering the exact event of his conversion. I remember I was almost 14 in a Sunday Night service when I was saved though I must confess some 27 years later the exact details are not as clear as they were back in 1978.

 

[Jeffrey H]

Originally posted by John Ellwood Taylor:
Just curious for your opinions: Here's the pastor's write-up on the church's website. As well, I've included their doctrinal stance on the Bible for your comments as well, is this a strong enough statement for the inspiration and inerrancy of the Bible?.....

On the surface, the pastor does not appear to be a "liberal" or "moderate". His statement on the Bible is a good statement. It is not necessary to use the word "inerrant" or "infallible" to believe the Bible is completely reliable.

To be fair, one would have to visit and experience the teachings of this pastor and the church to come to a conclusion.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Amen, Jeffrey H. I just don't care a bit
for those who are ready to slander a
Moderate labeling him 'a Liberal". It
especially annoys when it is obvious that
the defamer has no clue concerning
liberal enemy identification

 

[Scott J]

Originally posted by Charles Meadows:
Remember that in NT times Christianity was still in its nascent stages. It simply had not been around long enough for anyone to have been "raised up" with Christianity. Not to minimize the importance of a "conversion experience" - but I would not think it a bad thing that one would live a life in which Christ had ALWAYS been recognized as personal savior.

Charles, Are you suggesting that the scriptures are not sufficient to tell us how to be saved?

 

[Jim1999]

Labels are useless unless they are accurate. I don't really care what labels people put on me. I know in whom I have believed and no one can take that away.

Has anyone asked the man directly what he believes? Speculation can take you a long ways down the wrong road. Many a reputation has been sullied by speculation.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Scott J]

Apparently someone asked him and recorded his answer in the quote given in the OP.

 

[Jim1999]

Then the question wasn't explicit enough, or the answer given was sufficient. Let it rest and get on with it.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[TomVols]

We're running up on three pages now. I'm going to give a little more time to get actual theological information out there to fill in the gaps people (I'm one) asked for.

Otherwise, this is turning into a discussion that is not really fitting and will need to be shut down.

Thanks!

 

[Pete Richert]

His testimony doesn't indicate a point in his life when his spiritual nature was changed. "You must be born again"... his testimony doesn't indicate this.

I for one do not remember when I first believed. I have felt guilty about my sin as far back as I can remember and knew Jesus was the answer as far back as I remember.

But none of this is at all relevent to me. I don't care when I first believed, it makes no difference to me at all. What I care about is that I trust in Jesus TODAY. Not just today, but this very second. I always have to shake my head when I ask someone if they are a Christian and they tell me about some converstion experience ten years ago. I don't want to know about some decision you made in the past but whether or not you trust in Jesus RIGHT NOW!

No, I don't believe you can lose your salvation. I believe everyone who first trusts in Jesus will continue to trust in Jesus all through eternity. Why would I care if they began believing at a Billy Grahamn conference five years ago? What I want to know is are your a Christian, namely, DO YOU HAVE FAITH IN JESUS!

I usually find those who insist on hearing some exicting conversation story were saved later in life and like most people, antecdotally assume everyone's experience is like thier own.

 

[Plain Old Bill]

From my earliest memories my mother told me about God and Jesus.Does that mean I had a relationship with Jesus Christ?I was facinate by those stories and knew that God must be something bigger then I could imagine.I thought the same about Jesus and I knew He loved me because I knew how to sing Yes Jesus loves me,Yes Jesus loves me,Yes Jesus loves me, the Bible telles me so.Then we would sing the B-I-B-l-E yes that's the book for me.Now although I sang these songs with the innosince of a child and was just as sincere as my little 5 year old heart could be,did that me I had a saving relationship with Jesus Christ?At 5 I had never read the Bible. At 5 I could'nt spell sin let alone know what being a sinner really was.So I have to question always having a relationship with God.God has no grandchildren.

 

[Johnv]

His testimony doesn't indicate a point in his life when his spiritual nature was changed. "You must be born again"... his testimony doesn't indicate this.

You're assuming that, because he didn't share the moment when the light bulb went on, that the light bulb isn't on?

The OP states plainly that the pastor believes that "...salvation from sin is an essential part of the gospel message...". That is more than sufficient. There is no requirement for anyone, pastor or other, to share the intimate details of their becoming born again. Often, that time of a person's life is quite private and personal, and, frankly, no one's business. Scripture says ye must be born again. It doesn't say that ye must tout the born-again-process on one's sleeve.

A person has the scriptural right to know if a pastor is born again (which has been answered in the affirmative). However, a person does not have a scriptural right to know the personal and intimate details surrounding a person's conversion. The author of the OP has chosen not to share that information. I respect that. Why can't others?

 

[Ed Edwards]

Originally posted by TomVols:
We're running up on three pages now. I'm going to give a little more time to get actual theological information out there to fill in the gaps people (I'm one) asked for.

Otherwise, this is turning into a discussion that is not really fitting and will need to be shut down.

Thanks!

Strange, people will talk
off topic, and nobody wants to talk on topic
which thread is found at:

Blind guide to Moderate and Liberal (Page 1)

This thread is a specific, that thread is
general: what is the different viewpoints
that consevatives, moderates, and liberals have?